Noble Shadow game - Washington

[dudey1234]

Hey yall, I am kind of a noob to Civ 4. I've started a couple games but never completed them because I don't think I knew what I was doing. Therefore, I've decided to start a new game and post my progress in this thread. Feel free to jump in anytime and give me advice!

Game settings are Fractal, Standard size, Normal speed, Noble difficulty, Leader is Elizabeth.

I'm playing Elizabeth because I saw that she was a nice beginner leader. My game plan is to go for a science victory since I feel like that would be easiest to get into the game.
Alright here we go, I'm gonna come back and make a post every 20 turns.

Here's my starting position:

Spoiler :

I think I'm gonna settle in place here. 1 fish, 1 clam, and 1 corn is a nice place to be. The city starts on a work boat to get the clams (since I start out with fishing). After exploring with the warrior I find out I have pigs under me too.

The tribal village gave me a map:

After animal husbandry finished I went to mining -> bronze working to get that going.

Turn 16 I finished my work boat (I could have gotten this out quicker by putting my city to work on a production tile) before starting on a worker. I settled that on the fish on turn 17.

Here's my map (and where I think I should put my cities, I feel like I struggle with this the most, it feels like I could always have better more effective cities) on turn 20.

Couple notes from these first 20 turns:
I could have gotten out the work boat faster if I micromanaged my worked tiles better probably, then starting on a worker faster
Looking back, I probably should have started with a worker...I think I started the workboat before I saw the pigs
Was my research fine there? I felt like it was because it didn't feel like anything else was more important at the time.

First 20 turns done! Would appreciate your thoughts and insights.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Welcome to this forum!

You might want to look at this thread: Beginner help - the basics, as it covers the basic concepts, especially about the early game, in some detail.

First, researching AH (animal husbandry) now is a bit dubious. Granted you want to improve the pig down the line, but AH is not cheap in the early game and thus it can frequently be delayed a bit (rule of thumb: if it only allows improving one tile -> delay), usually in favour of bronze working, as chopping forests for production, and slavery allow to speed up your start. Also pottery as that is the key economic early game technology, allowing you to expand more.

About the work boat: Indeed building a worker first is frequently the best move. In this case, however, the worker can farm the corn (and pasture the pigs if you research AH), and the floodplain. This means that if you go worker first, it will run out of things to do before BW, meaning work boat first is a reasonable choice. The problem with how you played it is that you want the workboat ASAP, meaning working the 3 plains-hill.

Now about city placement. You typically want some overlap, as no city will be able to work all tiles up to the late game. Having overlap allows to always work key tiles:

• Food tiles can be given to cities that need to grow when the city that originally used them can no longer grow (happy cap).
• More cottages can be worked in one city, allowing to grow them and prepare a city for later multipliers (mostly bureaucracy and oxford university motivate this)

Also cities closer to your capital cost less maintenance.

So I would like to place the northern corn/pigs city on the hill west of the corn. This is closer, and is instantly connected to your trading network (sea tiles and rivers in your borders always connect cities), increasing your by 2. The downside is that it ruins the spot in the west, but that would only be valuable if there is seafood -> scout.

Your incense+fish city is bad. First, it blocks the northern fish from ever being worked. Second, the fish is the only food source and in the second ring. This means you will need culture, which is hard to get in the early game. Thus I would place one city next to the northern fish, and another maybe on the hill next to the other fish? (the second city needs more scouting)

Your wheat spot is bad in the early game, due to second ring food and lots of jungle. Maybe move to the plains-hill (PH) between wheat and marble (this also provides +1 to the city).

So as a rule for cities in the early game: unless you are creative, food should be in the first ring.

Leader is Elizabeth.

I am quite sure you are not playing Elizabeth, as she is financial, meaning tiles with 2 provide one more, making for 3 water tiles. Also standard settings do not allow mixing civs and leaders and you are playing the american civ.

 

[jorissimo]

Hi, welcome to the forums! If this is Roosevelt, the Great Lighthouse could be very much on the cards. I'm not seeing any other economic basis with so little riverside land. Other than that, I agree with @a pen-dragon . I'm curious to see if this is going to be isolation.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Enjoy.

And don't forget to eat and sleep !

 

[Thrasybulos]

Just a suggestion: you might consider restarting a game, and not playing 20-turn bunches.

The most important decisions come early on, so soliciting advice after 20 turns is... too late.
If you have a look at the various Noble's Club threads, you'll see that for instance simply deciding where to settle initially and where to send your scouting unit is subject to some heavy debate: that's on turn 0!

Now, obviously, people here tend to tailor their advice to veterans trying to move on to Deity, so there might be an overwhelming amount of information for someone essentially learning the game.
You might have to apply some filtering.

Another point:
People around here tend to disable huts and events.
It may be a good idea to do so as well when practising the game. Nothing wrong with playing with them if you enjoy the randomness they bring, but it might be better to learn in a less unpredictable setting.

 

[dudey1234]

Hi everyone thank you so much for all the awesome advice! I'll get to them one at a time.

First, researching AH (animal husbandry) now is a bit dubious. Granted you want to improve the pig down the line, but AH is not cheap in the early game and thus it can frequently be delayed a bit (rule of thumb: if it only allows improving one tile -> delay), usually in favour of bronze working, as chopping forests for production, and slavery allow to speed up your start. Also pottery as that is the key economic early game technology, allowing you to expand more.

This is a good tip, I always thought improve your food first but this makes a lot more sense

About the work boat: Indeed building a worker first is frequently the best move. In this case, however, the worker can farm the corn (and pasture the pigs if you research AH), and the floodplain. This means that if you go worker first, it will run out of things to do before BW, meaning work boat first is a reasonable choice. The problem with how you played it is that you want the workboat ASAP, meaning working the 3 plains-hill.

How long does it take for BW to come out? 15 turns for the worker + turns for corn + floodplains seems like a lot of time (if i went for worker first).

Now about city placement.

This is some awesome stuff, thank you! I'm definitely gonna need more practice in the future.

Thus I would place one city next to the northern fish

Wouldn't there be a lot of desert in this city? Would the fish make up for the lack of yields there?

I am quite sure you are not playing Elizabeth

Hahaha yeah I made a mistake, I changed my mind to Washington instead and forgot to change it on here. Thanks for the catch!

If this is Roosevelt, the Great Lighthouse could be very much on the cards.

I'm playing Washington but this still sounds like a good idea! I'm not very good at building world wonders (I have no clue what I'm doing with them) so I would definitely appreciate the advice on that!

you might consider restarting a game, and not playing 20-turn bunches.

People around here tend to disable huts and events.

This is all great advice that I will apply....next time
Hahaha if this shadow game turns out to be a success I'll probably do more to maybe get the hang of the game a bit more, where I will apply this. But I just want to get a completed game out there without stopping.

---

Thanks everyone for the help, and stay tuned for turns 20-40 coming out tonight!

 

[a pen-dragon]

Wouldn't there be a lot of desert in this city? Would the fish make up for the lack of yields there?

The desert does not really matter. Sure, long term it would be better to have better land, but this city has its food immediately available, which is the main reason for putting it there. It can also work the coast.

Granted it will never have good production, but with slavery all you need in the early game is a reasonable food source.

That said, it is definitely one of the weaker cities, settling better cities or ones that claim more land first is certainly a good idea.

I'm curious to see if this is going to be isolation.

Probably not. My main reason for this is how the standard map scripts balance happiness resources. Most tend to be available on only one set of close landmasses, with their number depending on how big they are/ how many players are on them. Thus iso frequently has only one, sometimes even none available (I do not count whales).

Also this continent looks quite big.

 

[jorissimo]

I'm playing Washington but this still sounds like a good idea! I'm not very good at building world wonders (I have no clue what I'm doing with them) so I would definitely appreciate the advice on that!

I don't really know about wonder dates on Noble, but I would say, get 4 coastal cities and try to get the GLH done by t75-ish? Make sure you have some mines and leave some forests for it in the capital. You could also whip stuff into it, like an axe, making use of the overflow, but that might be a bit advanced for now.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

IMO The Great Lighthouse doesn't do much on noble difficulty because there are not enough foreign cities to create trade routes with.

 

[dudey1234]

Alright everyone here we go, turns 20 to 40

I decided to go with @a pen-dragon's city placement suggestions. Here's the new dot map:

I'm planning on getting the pigs city first followed by the marble city before going for the fish.

Turn 22: Hut popped giving me a scout. Gonna use it to explore right.

Turn 25: Warrior beat barbarian wolves giving me a promotion, I went with woodsman (I feel like that's generally the best if you're scouting)

Turn 28: Bronze working unlocked, I switch to slavery for revolt for 1 turn. Timed perfect with my worker, who I send to my pigs. I also found copper in my capital (awesome). Started work on the wheel -> pottery

Turn 29: Revolt ended, and the warrior restarted from the beginning? I didn't know revolts did that I switched to a 3 hammer tile to finish the warrior quickly.

Turn 30: I realized I got a scout from the hut so there's absolutely no reason to be making a warrior.....I guess I can keep it garrisoned in my city actually, I keep the warrior in production. I move the scout and meet Elizabeth on the bottom right

Turn 33: I finish warrior and start on a settler. My worker finishes on the pigs and starts work on the corn. I meet Alexander's scout on the bottom right.

Turn 36: The Wheel finishes, moving onto Pottery

Turn 40: Worker finished work on Corn, moving to Copper.

Here's my map and my proposed dotmaps now:

The blue dotmap is potentially a later game city once I get culture going somehow, and the one next to the corn and gems I think is decent later too once I get iron working going

Couple notes:
- I definitely feel like I was pretty inefficient here. Whether I could speed up my production using whipping, chopping, let me know how I could have done this more efficiently. I was scared to whip my warrior because I knew I was losing a worked tile, which meant the settler would be coming out later. The revolt certainly didn't help this much.
- More city help would be appreciated. Am I doing the most I can with the space?
- How should my first couple builds go? I know the warrior wasn't the most efficient especially since I got a scout from the hut, but I felt like I wanted one warrior to scout vs one warrior to guard my next city placement.

Tune in next time to see my first city!

 

[Nick723]

One simple piece of advice that makes a big difference - check what tiles your city is working.

For example, in neither of the screenshots (turn 20 or 40) you have shown are you working the fish, and in the latest one you are not working the corn either. Switch your tiles and you’ll get the settler out faster!

 

[jorissimo]

Turn 25: Warrior beat barbarian wolves giving me a promotion, I went with woodsman (I feel like that's generally the best if you're scouting)

You shouldn't wander off too far, use your warrior for fogbusting (preventing barb spawns in a radius of 2 tiles from your unit).

Turn 28: Bronze working unlocked, I switch to slavery for revolt for 1 turn.

The best way to switch is when the settler is on the move. This way you won't lose time while building the settler and you don't lose a turn of production in the second city.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

You shouldn't wander off too far, use your warrior for fogbusting (preventing barb spawns in a radius of 2 tiles from your unit).

"Fogbusting" is a good habit but on noble difficulty I won't bother. I would just explore recklessly.

Maybe build roads and keep three archers around. A bit like racket sports. Hit the ball, then go back to the middle of the court.

 

[dudey1234]

Turns 40-60 here we go!!

Turn 41 I whip settler with population going down from 3-2.

Turn 42 My scout kills some wolfs barely (that was close) I fortify in the jungle.

My settler finishes so I move him down to a city down south cause I want to block Elizabeth first.

Turn 43 Pottery finishes. I start on mysticism so I can get culture going. Iron working is a little expensive so maybe at a later date. I also find out my city started on a warrior without my knowledge (why did that happen?) I switch to a production tile to get the warrior done in 1 turn.

Turn 44 My warrior barely kills the lions. I do woodsman 2 as my upgrade and fortify in the jungle.

My warrior finishes in my capital and I start on a worker to be done in 5 turns.

Turn 45: My injured scout beats lions wow i'm getting so lucky I thought I fortified until healed, I promote to woodsman 1

New york is found:

I start it on a worker.
In my capital city my worker finishes a mine on the copper, so I start building roads on the copper(Should I build roads on all my resources as soon as I finish improving them?). I have to opportunity to whip my worker in the capital city here but choose not to because I'm losing a food tile (This is another thing, when do I whip and not whip? Is this the right play?)

Turn 49: Worker finishes in Washington, I start on a settler. I move the worker to work on my wheat in New York.

Turn 50: Mysticism is unlocked, I start on iron working now. The worker finished building the road and I start chopping to get the settler out faster.

Turn 53: My scouting reveals Alexander on the top right:

I whip my settler for population 3 -> 2 and start my worker on a cottage.

Turn 54: My settler finishes and I start work on another settler. It feels weird doing this many settlers because I feel like my capital city is staying at 2 population, I'm not sure if this is the best play but I feel like I'm behind on cities and want to get them out quickly. My settler goes to the pig and corn city up top:

Turn 55: Worker finishes in New York and I start on a warrior. I move the worker to improve my marble (nevermind i need masonry, should have gotten that first, I stop iron working to go on masonry). For now I chop with my worker

Turn 56: Worker finishes improving wheat and I move him to start on a cottage. Not sure whether the position of the cottage is good tho:

Turn 57: I move my scout to auto explore (should be ok right?) My warrior starts moving back to my cities
I found Boston:

I start on a monument so I can get culture for my pigs
In my capital city my worker is done building a cottage, so I move him up to Boston to work on the corn.

Turn 59: New York is done with building a warrior, so I start on a monument to unlock the second ring (since it's only 5 turns). I start one of my available workers to build automated trade routes.

Turn 60: I move one of my workers to the horses that are in my borders now to improve that.

Here are the state of my current cities now:

And here is the rest of the map we explored (i think we pretty much have the whole continent:

I have more questions this time:
- This is kind of the point where I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing with technologies. I see I could have gotten masonry earlier to get the marble going but any other tips for technologies at this stage?
- Am I building worker improvements right? I usually just place cottages everywhere and some farms if I'm short on food but now that I'm doing this slowly I really want to think about where I'm putting my improvements. Any tips?
- Should I worry about settling the other side of the continent? Probably a later issue, but I feel like if I don't hurry I'll lose that space (I was bottom on largest civilizations in the world at one point)
- Am I whipping correctly? I don't really know what to build in my cities at any given time, it feels like my cities are kind of small in population. Is building a monument an ok move here?

Thanks everyone so much for all your help! Doing this slow methodical process of playing and thinking through my actions has really helped me enjoy the game more. Usually when I get to the mid/late game I always feel like I'm just placing random stuff without really thinking about why I'm doing it. Really looking forward to this series!

Stay tuned tomorrow for more cities/expansion!

 

[jorissimo]

see I could have gotten masonry earlier to get the marble going

Masonry is really unimportant at this stage, even if you have marble. Except if you want to go for the Oracle.

- Am I whipping correctly? I don't really know what to build in my cities at any given time, it feels like my cities are kind of small in population. Is building a monument an ok move here?

A couple of rules of thumb (exceptions exist): never whip the capital, never 1-pop whip. Now, it's often worth letting city 2 and maybe also city 3 grow to size 2 on a warrior or a granary, then switch to a worker, and then whip it as soon as possible (when it's halfway done). That's the only situation where you 1-pop whip, aside from emergency whips of military units. Other than that, keep in mind: whip workers at 4 pop and settlers at 6 pop if possible. Settlers can also be whipped at 4 pop but you need to invest 40 hammers.

 

[sampsa]

A couple of rules of thumb (exceptions exist): never whip the capital, never 1-pop whip.

And maybe most importantly - don't whip strong tiles. If you spend worker turns farming a corn or invest 30 on a work boat, you want to work that tile for the rest of the game, non-stop.

 

[dudey1234]

Heyo turns 60-80 incoming!

Turn 63: Masonry finishes, I start work on Iron working.
Settler finishes in capital, I guess I'll start a work boat and hopefully get my population going like what @jorissimo said.

Turn 64: Monument in New York finishes, I start on a granary.

Turn 67: My settler was killed by barbarian warriors i should have escorted him with a warrior or something.... dang it
The monument finished in Boston, I start on a warrior there I also start a worker on a flood plains

Turn 71: Granary finished in New York, I start on a settler.

Turn 79: Granary finished in Washington, I start on an axeman.

Kind of boring 20 turns, I focused on growing my current cities instead of expanding.

Here are the state of my current cities:

I've got some unimproved worked tiles that I can work on, so that is definitely something good to work on.

I still have a lot of the same questions as last time, with a couple extra:
- Is my build order okay? I keep building axemen to build my population, but is there something better I can be building instead?
- I feel like I'm behind. Am I behind? I have no clue.

Thanks everyone! Hopefully I'll have more cities by next time.

 

[jorissimo]

Turn 67: My settler was killed by barbarian warriors i should have escorted him with a warrior or something.... dang it

This is game-losing and imho you could reload in this case, as it's supposed to be an exercise and not a test

 

[dudey1234]

This is game-losing and imho you could reload in this case, as it's supposed to be an exercise and not a test

Dang for real? Would I be able to bring it back since I'm only playing on noble?

I only ask because I feel like the mid game is the part where I feel like I don't know what I'm doing and I would want more advice on that part

 

[jorissimo]

Dang for real? Would I be able to bring it back since I'm only playing on noble?

It really depends on your skill. If Noble is a level that is challenging for you then I don't think so.

I only ask because I feel like the mid game is the part where I feel like I don't know what I'm doing and I would want more advice on that part

Losing a settler when you're at 3 cities that's something that will snowball into a much bigger loss later (in the same way that early advantages snowball positively). So it will make your midgame unnecessarily hard.