[BTS] Noble Shadow Game: Wow, Joao

[keyboard-rider]

Well, I was focusing on Commerce.

T65 end:
- Lisbon redirects efforts to Cow tile from Grassland.
- Seoul switches to work on Palace.
- Two Chariots are sent SE to fogbust around Seoul.

- T66: Worker done with Farm near Lisbon, is instructed to Pasture the Cow.
- Settler is chopped for Oporto.
- Palace is chopped for Seoul.

T67: Met Gandhi, opened borders.

T68: Free worker near Seoul is directed to chop riverside Grassland.

T69:
- Mathematics done, Masonry next for Quarry and Pyramids. Skipping HBR for now since it is pretty late and we are focusing on REXing. What do you think about this?
- Oporto Settler done, is instructed to move towards Seoul. New Settler queued.
- Worker chops Palace for Seoul.
- I spot HRE Settler.

T70:
- HRE settles the flood plains to the east. Noooo! Not my beautiful, fertile Flood Plains!
- Oporto Settler is redirected towards near Flood Plains spot near Corn.

T71:
- Masonry done. Iron Working next, to be able to chop Jungle.
- Coimbra founded next to Oporto, Worker is farming Corn.

T72: Guiamares Granary done, Settler queued.

T73: Worker chops Palace for Seoul.

T75: Settler done in Oporto.

And now we have decisions to make.

We have another three city spots that are attractive even without Calendar, namely:

1) Flood Plains N of Mountains spot
2) Wheat+Horses+Ivory spot
3) Cows+Rice(+Sugar) spot

So whatever we decide, we can settle those three.

Then, we have remaining spots that can be attractive, provided that Calendar is researched. We could also try trading for it, by researching Alphabet.

Get Calendar and REX further, beyond next three cities?
Finish REX at +3 cities?
Pursue HBR or not, maybe elepult later if can claim Ivory?
Self-research Calendar?

I would like to take Nuremberg, but perhaps we can have HRE improve it for us, first...

 

[Gumbolt]

Lisbon could be using the mine instead of the forest tile. You get zero growth while building a settler so always run the hammers with imperialist leader. Because the other city used the mines you need to manually ask your capital to use the mine now. You are building a mine and not even using the one you have. You have ignored the marble which has plus 2C commerce once improved. So 1F3H3C vs 1F3H1C. Chops for settler maybe better near Lisbon?

Oporto was better as a settler pump. You need 3-4 more cities here.5 cities by 1000bc is slow considering imperialist. You need to start grabbing the happiness resources. Calendar is important here too. Mids is so strong too. You 100% should be going mids and using workers to chop this now you have maths. Mines should be last terrain upgrade here with so little food.

With slower expansion barbs from fog could become a bit annoying so time to grab more land.

Shaka will eventually hook up metal. At which point you are pretty much his only target to attack. Try to grab the ivory before he does.

 

[keyboard-rider]

T75 end:
- Lisbon emphasizes hammers, can now train Settler in 4 turns.
- Oporto Settler is directed to Wheat + Horses + 3 x Ivory spot. Oporto is directed to train another Settler, emphasizing hammers.

T76: Two Workers are redirected from the vicinity of Guiamares to help chop Pyramids in Seoul. Lisbon has better hammers, but very few tree-chopping possibilities left.

T77:
- Settler done in Guiamares, city is directed to train Worker. Settler is directed to Sugar + Rice + Dye spot near HRE border.
- Worker near Lisbon done with Mine, is directed to quarry the Marble.
- Worker helps chop Palace near Seoul.

T78: Palace done in Seoul. Work begins on the Pyramids.

T79:
- Huayna wants me to cancel my deals with the Indians. I decline, since I already have some Commerce with them.
- Iron Working research done, research begins on Calendar.
- Iron spot discovered near Lisbon.
- Settler done in Lisbon, work begins on Worker. Settler moves to Flood Plains spot N of Mountains.

T80:
- One of my Chariots dies to a barb Spearman.
- Évora founded near Wheat, Horses and triple Ivory.

T81:
- Settler done in Oporto, Worker started. Settler is directed to Cow + Rice + Sugar spot.
- Lagos founded N of Mountains.
- 2 x Worker chops Pyramids.
- Hindu Missionary spotted in Oporto.

T82:
- Charlemagne demands that we cancel deals with Sumerians. I decline, since I expect Hinduism to spread to Lisbon shortly.
- Lisbon completes Worker, starts on Barracks since I expect the barb Spearman that just appeared near Évora to destroy it shortly Worker is directed to mine the Iron.
- Hinduism spreads, I adopt it.

T83:
- Shaka's Archer enters Évora. Barb Spearman moves away. I switch to a Worker in Lisbon.
- Braga founded near HRE border.
- 2 x Worker chops Pyramids.
- Oporto deemphasizes hammers to protect from shrinkage.
- Government reestablished. By the way, according to the BUG event log, the anarchy starts on, and stops on the same turn - 825 BC. Is this really true? I thought government gets reestablished at the beginning of the next turn?

T84:
- Barb Spearman dies attacking Chariot in Évora.
- Worker done in Guiamares, starts chopping another Worker.
- Leiria founded at Rice and Sugar spot.

T85:
- Barb Axeman spotted near Guiamares.
- Worker chops Pyramids. It will be done next turn!

Plans: Stabilize economy, finish Calendar research, hook up cities to road network, improve fog busting near own territory, finish improving Flood Plains and Gold, chop some Jungle while Calendar finishes researching.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay 9 cities is nice. You realised you were super short on workers too. More would be good as you have so many flood plains not cottaged.

You need metal units to stop these barb issues or you need to fogbust the land. On higher levels the Ai would of taken most of the land.You may need to pay to upgrade a unit as 2 cities are at risk. Can you get a chariot to one? I wouldn't risk chariot vs spear attacker.

Capital should focus on growth. Maybe one of the flood plain or 2 should of been irrigated? That city needs to be size 12+ by 1ad.

You need to back fill the rice city and get roads linked to ivory city.

Calendar is key here. Hanging gardens will be nice too.

Oracle would of been nice. Are you too late? How quickly can you get Priesthood. You would need to pre chop 2 forest to get close to 150H required.

You may need your gold to upgrade warriors to defend your capital and other city. That vs getting oracle techs? Or just go calendar.

At some point Shaka will likely go war mode on you so have a few melee units near his border.

Overall the AI here are on 2-4 cities. You could easily have 10+ here. You should not be losing this game. I think next game should be prince or monarch as noble is probably too easy if you are getting help.

What is your plan to win here as whipping armies here will be tough. Maybe hammer economy with communism.I think a Cuirs rush should work well here even with low food.

 

[keyboard-rider]

Okay 9 cities is nice. You realised you were super short on workers too. More would be good as you have so many flood plains not cottaged.

You need metal units to stop these barb issues or you need to fogbust the land. On higher levels the Ai would of taken most of the land.You may need to pay to upgrade a unit as 2 cities are at risk. Can you get a chariot to one? I wouldn't risk chariot vs spear attacker.

Capital should focus on growth. Maybe one of the flood plain or 2 should of been irrigated? That city needs to be size 12+ by 1ad.

You need to back fill the rice city and get roads linked to ivory city.

Calendar is key here. Hanging gardens will be nice too.

Oracle would of been nice. Are you too late? How quickly can you get Priesthood. You would need to pre chop 2 forest to get close to 150H required.

You may need your gold to upgrade warriors to defend your capital and other city. That vs getting oracle techs? Or just go calendar.

At some point Shaka will likely go war mode on you so have a few melee units near his border.

Overall the AI here are on 2-4 cities. You could easily have 10+ here. You should not be losing this game. I think next game should be prince or monarch as noble is probably too easy if you are getting help.

What is your plan to win here as whipping armies here will be tough. Maybe hammer economy with communism.I think a Cuirs rush should work well here even with low food.

I am researching Calendar.
I can get Priesthood in about 10 turns. However, I would rather skip it and focus on not losing any cities - meaning, spending the hammers on military units, instead.
There is a massive belt of forest to the south. Maybe I can chop science buildings and Barracks/Stable, then cuirs?
How does a cuir rush work, anyway? Is there a credited guide somewhere?

 

[Gumbolt]

I am researching Calendar.
I can get Priesthood in about 10 turns. However, I would rather skip it and focus on not losing any cities - meaning, spending the hammers on military units, instead.
There is a massive belt of forest to the south. Maybe I can chop science buildings and Barracks/Stable, then cuirs?
How does a cuir rush work, anyway? Is there a credited guide somewhere?

Cuirs you spam whip most cities for units. You don't even need stables as you can use civics for XP if you have a spread religion. The Ai on this map will struggle for stacks over 7-8 units.

Given low food maybe Communism and police state? Build workshops and spam units by hammer production.

The southern cities for happiness is always good. Oracle can at times be a distraction but on Noble you can sometimes sneak civil service if you have Codes of law and maths.

You should grab all the land you can. Or the Ai will take it. Even Noble AI eventually expand and build units.

Who are you going to lose cities to? Shaka is the only real threat and 3-4 melee units will stop him till he gets construction. With a big empire you can do a mix of things. 1-2 cities can spams settlers. Others can build or whip units. I wouldn't build lots of units now unless you intend to take out a nearby AI. Construction for catapults would work. Happiness resources is great. The MoM wonder for extended golden ages too. Don't be afraid to get some wonder fail gold too. Great Library in your capital will be nice.

 

[keyboard-rider]

Played to T100.
I did two separate revolutions for Slavery and Representation so that I could whip units to defend Guiamares and Seoul, from a barb Axeman and Spearman, respectively. Pyramids is done, switched to producing MoM. I got a GE and bulbed Metal Casting since it looks as if I will need workshops, anyway. Now researching Alphabet, with a plan to trade for Monarchy so that I can improve a winery for Faro, as well as HBR as a requirement for cuirs. Otherwise, the research plan is to get Bureaucracy with Civil Service, then go for any remaining cuir prerequisites. My tech rate is now atrocious. I plan on backfilling the rice city, the rest of the spots are tentative. I now have 15 workers for 10 cities.

 

[Gumbolt]

Bulbing MC seems bad. It's a 580? beaker tech. A GE bulb is worth 1000 beakers plus 2x(?) pop. You gave up over 500 beakers. At times better to settle for the hammers.

Coimbra should grab the flood plains. Bad to work forest tiles. The other city can use the unused flood plain cottage.

All those workers and none on the Sugar/Dye or Rice? Cancel cottage near Leiria.

Capital has a grassland covered in forest. 2 food tile is always better than a mine.

Too many workers around lagos. You want 3-4 workers on the resources around the jungle too. You need a couple near the ivory city.

Lisbon should be growing. Zero growth and building a barracks is bad. If not building settlers/workers then choose growth.

I tend to road the jungle with the resource and send 2-3 workers to complete it.

Maybe whip a worker in Guimares. That or a settler. 14 workers but you have so many resources to improve here.

You had one worker building a mine when you have so many unimproved happiness and food resources. The horse could of waited. I guess it might speed up your worker.

Shaka unhappy with Indians but you are on his border. Try to scout him out. 3-4 units on border just in case.

 

[keyboard-rider]

Played to T125.

- Traded Monarchy, Polytheism and Archery for Metal Casting with Gilgamesh.
- Wine resources have been improved.
- Researched Code of Laws and sent the missionary to the Indians. They, along with the Incans, seem most allergic to allies with a different religion.
- Scouted Shaka, who seems to have at least 6 cities, and also found a barb city, am now on the way there with Axeman stack. I may found 1-2 more cities to the east of Shaka, but would prefer to avoid border pressure. We shall see.
- Started workshopping some riverside Plains.
- Évora is stockpiling some Axemen and Chariots in case Shaka decides to try something.

 

[Gumbolt]

Guimaraes - You are chopping a jungle tile when you have 4 unimproved grassland tiles. I would certainly settle the city for the bananas. That is a decent food resource plus the gems.
The forest in your capital needs to be chopped and likely farmed. Forge would be good in capital but it's growth is now stagnant. Monastery for science. Plus do you build aqueduct and Hanging Gardens too?
Coimbra lighthouse?
Courthouses. Honestly not needed in any of your cities. Unless cost is 8-10 a turn. If you have nothing to build use research or wealth. That or wonders for fail gold.
Don't be afraid to whip away unimproved tiles. Or use forest for fail gold on wonders. E.g Leiria has 4-5 unimproved tiles. Library should of been whipped. Lighthouse too for 2F2C tiles.
Hanging Gardens is a great wonder when you have 10 cities. +1 pop in each city. Aqueduct needed. Maybe in your capital or chopped elsewhere.
You rushed MC with a bulb and have not built a single forge. If you plan fail gold with wonders and civics then
Doing multiple techs for one is a bad idea as the AI note this and treat it as a trade advantage to you.
You need a plan here. Civil service is great for bureau. Lit for Great Library is good. Not sure you need so many axes as costing you 7 gold a turn.
Nuremburg would of been a great city and right next to your capital. Taking out HRE would be good. That needs construction.

 

[keyboard-rider]

Forge would be good in capital but it's growth is now stagnant.

Is there a general guideline for when forges are worth building? I am worrying about the extra unhealth.

Plus do you build aqueduct and Hanging Gardens too?
Coimbra lighthouse?

Yes, probably in Seoul. Lighthouse seems to be a good idea in Coimbra, yeah.

You need a plan here. Civil service is great for bureau. Lit for Great Library is good. Not sure you need so many axes as costing you 7 gold a turn.
Nuremburg would of been a great city and right next to your capital. Taking out HRE would be good. That needs construction.

The plan was CS for Bureau, then there is the Mil Trad line and the Gunpowder line to get to cuirs. Any suggestions? Maybe I can tech trade some, although the other civs seems to be doing teching comparatively slowly right now. Great Library is a good idea.

Not sure you need so many axes as costing you 7 gold a turn.

It is partially insurance against Shaka and partially, I know I will lose some on that barb city.

 

[pmarc]

Is there a general guideline for when forges are worth building? I am worrying about the extra unhealth.

They are more a priority when you have the resources to get +happiness from forges, like gold here. Otherwise, when you start whipping units that cost 80+ production, forges are nice if you can afford them.

You still need enough food to whip them without sacrificing too many good tiles. Easier in the capital because of the bureaucracy bonus to production, which includes production from whipping.

The plan was CS for Bureau, then there is the Mil Trad line and the Gunpowder line to get to cuirs. Any suggestions? Maybe I can tech trade some, although the other civs seems to be doing teching comparatively slowly right now. Great Library is a good idea.

You can still periodically trade old techs to AIs for gold whenever they accumulate some gold. If an AI is the only one with the tech (besides yourself), they will often hold on to it, so you don't have to trade a tech to everyone at once and can wait for other AIs to have more gold to make it worth it. But very old techs should be traded liberally even for modest amounts of gold to fuel your main research.

 

[Gumbolt]

Maybe better to try for communism and hammer economy as there is not a lot of food here. You will have gems soon. CS will be great for capital. You have 4 spare health in the capital.

Dye, incense and gems not hooked up. Clams can be taken too with a workboat. Likely whale if you search more. Island cities etc.

You should be winning this quite easily with land advantage. Do consider taking out HRE with phants/pults and axes. That border city is sooo good. See how many axes you lose on the barbs.

Currency will be good for trading techs for gold but CS must first. Once you have currency don't be afraid to run wealth.

 

[keyboard-rider]

Played up to T150.

Sundry turns, T126-T128:
- Switched Guiamares and Coimbra to build Forge.
- All cities switched to emphasize growth except Oporto and Lagos, those two switch to emphasize hammers while producing Settlers for SW city spots.
- Huayna wants to get Calendar for 25 gold. I suggest 40 gold, he declines.
- Took Avar with 3 Axemen to spare. Decided to keep it. Not much resources around, but should get decent commerve with a Harbor. Got a free Worker.
- Shaka wants me to convert to Buddhism. I decline, fearing the vaporization of my 14 commerce worth of trade with HRE.

T129:
- Whip forge in Guiamares, lose 4 unimproved tiles.
- Leiria Library done, Lighthouse next.
- Faro Barracks done, queue Courthouse.
- My missionary spreads Confucianism in Bombay.

T130:
- CS done. Construction next. Revolution for Bureau.
- Lisbon finishes Hindu Monastery. Research while waiting for Con.

T131:
- I trade CoL for Currency to Gilga for 60 gold and set up a Fur for Gold trade.

T132:
- Settler done in Oporto, I go for a Banana spot, but realize that Gems can be worked by Avar. Hrrrmph.
- I whip Forge in Coimbra for 3 unimproved tiles.
- Whip Lighthouse in Leiria for 2 unimproved tiles.

T133:
- Construction done, HBR next.
- Aqueduct done in Seoul, Hanging Gardens next.
- Lighthouse done in Leiria, Barracks next.
- Santarém finishes building, switch to Cat. Lisbon switches to Cat also. Start building up attack force.
- Lagos Settler done, go for Spice + Dye + Iron spot.
- Seoul thoughts: It is now stagnant, and there are lots of Plains tiles left. Am I right in thinking it would be better to Farm the two riverside Grasslands, then cottage some Plains instead?
- Whip Granary in Avar, Barracks next.
- Braganza founded near Banana, build Granary, emphasize Food

T134:
- HBR done, Aesthetics next.
- Whip Courthouse in Évora.
- Whip Courthouse in Lagos.
- Whip Library in Braga.

T135:
- Évora switches to Temple.
- Lagos switches to Temple.
- Braga witches to Barracks.
- Sagres founded near Spice + Dye spot, Granary next.

T136:
- Aesth done, Lit next.

T137:
- Hanging Gardens done in Seoul, Stable next.

T138:
- Great Prophet appears in Seoul, constructs holy building of Judaism.
- Shower thought: Do Actual numbers for Holy Shrines include cities abroad with that religion in the calculation?
- Whip Courthouse in Guimaraes.
- Whip Granary in Braganza.

T139:

- Shaka wants Calendar for 70 gold. I acquiesce since he is plotting.
- Braganza starts building Barracks.
- Lit done. Starting Gunpowder line. Grocers may be useful.
- Guimaraes starts working on TGL.
- Coimbra work boat done, starting Catapult.
- Braganza Granary done, starting Barracks.
- Faro whips Courthouse.

T140:
- Stable done in Lisbon and Seoul, War Elephants queued.
- Courthouse done in Faro, Cat queued.

T141:
- Barracks done in Avar, Cat queued.
- WE done in Lisbon, another WE queued.

T142:
- Barracks done in Leiria, Cat next.
- Set up Crab for Rice deal with Gilga.

T143:
- WE done in Lisbon, queued another.
- Cat done in Santarem, queued another.
- Granary done in Sagres, Barracks queued.
- Oporto whips Courthouse.
- Coimbra whips Cat.
- Leiria whips Cat.

T144:
- Machinery done, Guilds next.
- Oporto Courthouse done, Maceman queued.
- Coimbra Cat done, another Cat queued.
- Temple done in Evora, Cat queued.
- Cat done in Leiria, another queued.

T145:
- WE done in Lisbon, WE queued.
- WE done in Seoul, another WE queued.
- Cat done in Leiria, another Cat queued.
- Shaka declares war on Gandhi

T147:
- Lagos finishes Temple, Cat queued.
- Lagos finishes Cat, Cat queued.
- Avar finishes Cat, Cat queued.
- Bombay captured by Shaka

T148:
- Barracks done in Braga, Cat queued.
- Avar finishes Cat, Cat queued.

T149:
- Seoul finishes WE, WE queued.
- Coimbra Cat done, another Cat queued.
- Barracks done in Braganza, Cat queued.
- Lagos whips Cat.
- Faro whips Cat.
- Avar whips Cat.

T150:
- Lisbon WE done, queued another.
- Evora, Lagos, Faro, Avar cats done, queued another.
- Barracks done in Sagres, queued Cat.
- Can trade Feudalism to Huayna for 110 gold, not sure if worth it. Not keen on creating a vassalizer.

Well, the situation is interesting now. I am at Friendly or Pleased with all Hindu nations. Wardeccing a Pleased nation feels wrong. Shaka is plotting, but War Elephants are bad against Impi. On the other hand, I do not see any Landsknechts out from HRE yet, so there is that.

 

[Gumbolt]

On save i loaded Shaka and Indians are at war. Let them fight it out.

You are 1 turn off guilds. Knights vs archers is an easy win. Your power rating is too high for Shaka now anyway. That or you wait for cuirs?

You have 13 catapults send them to your capital and build knights.Road towards Nuremburg and take it. Just attack it with 2-3 catapults and go with phants/knights. if you have 7-8 pults you could bombard a bit but overkill. You don't need 13 catapults to start war. 5-8 is ample. Not sure why all the catapults are asleep in cities. Won't do any good there.

I would of taken music for free artist.

At some point you want a golden age. Great artist helps for that. Not great during war. Maybe left a bit too late given how close cuirs is. Golden age usually helps with great scientists for edu. You can't bulb liberalism now as you took machinery. It might work if you got a great person soon. hmmm.

Great library should be in the capital.

You can certainly start a war now. Otherwise all these catapults are a waste. If you skip paper/edu you can get cuirs in 5-6 techs.

I would play this out for the win. Take out HRE with units you have plus more knights. Then head cuirs for the other AI. I don't think you are learning much now as the game is so far in.

 

[keyboard-rider]

Got Domination victory in 1505 AD. I went HRE --> Huayna --> Gandhi. Not much to mention, I built Notre Dame for fun and almost finished researching Communism.

Here is a summary of points that were of special interest to me, although I appreciate all of your notes:

- is very important. It enables growth, which enables further tiles being worked. Pop can also be whipped away. Unimproved tiles can be whipped away without worrying too much about it. When founding new cities, all other things being equal, prefer the spots with the best food resources available.
- The worker/settler pump play using a Horse tile was interesting.
- Flood plains are considered to be very valuable.
- Have a plan.
- Binary science.
- When training Settlers and Workers, a city does not grow, so can emphasize hammers or commerce meanwhile. The same is not true for work boats.
- The emphasize buttons in the city manager screen are useful. (I never used them before this game!)
- Shaka need not be killed in every game.
- When considering bulbing a tech, think about the long-term beakers you lose.
- Do not trade multiple techs at once as the AIs consider this treat this as a trade advantage, making further tech trading harder.
- Consider building Forges when extra happiness can be obtained from them.
- When an AI has accumulated some gold, consider trading some old tech to them.

 

[Gumbolt]

Well done amazing job. Now lets try Monarch level as you can clearly boss Noble level. On a low food map too.

I played this game as a shadow but I had one rule that all GP need to be settled in the capital. I think i had 16 great people and 3 great generals settled in my capital. Built 16 or so wonders too.

Got to artillery/rifles for fun. Longbows really can't match artillery. Few turns off winning here but pretty sure i played this out. Shakas dated 30 strong stack died to artillery and rifles.

This saves shows you what a hammer economy can do. Base hammers in capital is 76. Cuirs is always quicker. Spamming HA on Noble can work too. You learn more by building an economy.

 

[Gumbolt]

I would not use the city management buttons. Suboptimal.
On Noble level Shaka is much less of a threat. Noble Ai eventually catch up if you leave them alone. Higher levels he will have stacks of axes/HA and maybe phants being thrown at you.
Bulbing wise Edu/Lib is teh norm. Some might bulb philosophy. If you are philosophical some might bulb maths very early on. As long as it's part of a strategy. E.g. catapult rush or early calendar.
Forges in very big cities can be great for happiness. If you are industrious then maybe more. If you plan police state and hammer economy then they are required in most cities.

Without imperialist trait here settler first may not of worked. Same for Exp bonus on workers. The 2 hand in hand work well.

On Noble level 5-6 very early units can wipe out the AI as they lack archery. On immortal level the AI can have 2 cities before 3000bc. Noble 2000bc or so.