[BTS] Nobles' Club 193 - Catherine

[Olafeson]

@unas876

One screenshot on how i have settled this map, and my thoughts on the tech path. Of course, only represents my opinion and might not be optimal.

Spoiler :

Settling 1E of starting location for the plains hill. At size 3 produce first settler followed by another worker.

Tech path : AH -> Wheel-> Pottery -> Writing -> BW - > Alphabet or Aesthetics (if another Civ already got alpha and trade for Alpha)

If you run into barb problems build 1 or 2 chariots, which also can scout later.

 

[unas876]

525BC

Spoiler :

Lookin' kinda easy from here. I went with the peaceful approach. Maybe I'll get Monarchy to get Gilgamesh to friendly to be 100% safe from him and maybe bribe him. Was gonna bribe him against Ragnar, but now they are in the same religion. Hatty is gonna get it, Ragnar is currently plotting on her. So would have been nice to get Gilgamesh on Ragnar so that hopefully noone gets anywhere in terms of capturing territory or getting a vassal. Oh well. Hoping to capture the barb city in the SW soon and get at least two other cities. Tech pace is awful, so I kinda wish I would have chosen Deity difficulty. Maybe next time. Or maybe I would have gotten whooped with some of the mistakes pointed out above

 

[Olafeson]

525BC

Spoiler :

Lookin' kinda easy from here. I went with the peaceful approach. Maybe I'll get Monarchy to get Gilgamesh to friendly to be 100% safe from him and maybe bribe him. Was gonna bribe him against Ragnar, but now they are in the same religion. Hatty is gonna get it, Ragnar is currently plotting on her. So would have been nice to get Gilgamesh on Ragnar so that hopefully noone gets anywhere in terms of capturing territory or getting a vassal. Oh well. Hoping to capture the barb city in the SW soon and get at least two other cities. Tech pace is awful, so I kinda wish I would have chosen Deity difficulty. Maybe next time. Or maybe I would have gotten whooped with some of the mistakes pointed out above

Yeah, this game looks already pretty won, already 7 cities. Still land to settle peacefully while already more cities than computer players.

Spoiler :

Egypt would be total pushover with elepults, and i guess Ragnar would be no problem at all with engineering and trebuchets. Rest of the game should be a walk in the park.

Well GG WP, i think. Maybe you should play next nobles club on deity. I think i might replay this map on deity difficulty after i finished my current game.

 

[elementoffear]

This game is making me realize how bad my diplo game is.

Spoiler :

Gilgamesh and Ragnar both declared on me at once even tough I never didn't even open borders with Egypt which they were fighting with.

Are there any good resources (guide/video) helping with diplomacy or how to manage relations etc..?

 

[Olafeson]

This game is making me realize how bad my diplo game is.

Spoiler :

Gilgamesh and Ragnar both declared on me at once even tough I never didn't even open borders with Egypt which they were fighting with.

Are there any good resources (guide/video) helping with diplomacy or how to manage relations etc..?

Well, not sure if that is what you want. Also it maybe is a bit too indepth for occasional civ 4 players like me. But i think the "Civ Illustraded" Guide created by a bunch of forum users like e.g. Kaitzilla is a good source to better understand how the A.I. leaders each approach the game in their own way. For example it is unlikely that A.I. will declare on you if your relation to them is pleased. And most A.I. will not plot or declare on you when friendly. Although some crazy nuts like (i think) Montezuma or Julius Caesar can
and will.

Here is the link. I didnt contributed anything to the guide. Not sure if i am allowed to post it, but then someone will probably tell me.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

 

[elementoffear]

Well, not sure if that is what you want. Also it maybe is a bit too indepth for occasional civ 4 players like me. But i think the "Civ Illustraded" Guide created by a bunch of forum users like e.g. Kaitzilla is a good source to better understand how the A.I. leaders each approach the game in their own way. For example it is unlikely that A.I. will declare on you if your relation to them is pleased. And most A.I. will not plot or declare on you when friendly. Although some crazy nuts like (i think) Montezuma or Julius Caesar can
and will.

Here is the link. I didnt contributed anything to the guide. Not sure if i am allowed to post it, but then someone will probably tell me.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

Ah... thank you , but ah.... that is way over my league I was thinking about like a top 10 list or something easier for my level.
But seriously, thanks for the tip.

 

[Olafeson]

Mh okay i can try a top 10 list. I play mostly on immortal difficulty with huts and events, but also on deity but deity difficulty itches and scratches and is not as much fun.

1. It does not matter if you open borders with someone i think. That does not affect diplo, only when they ask you to cancel your trade deals ( including open borders)
you get an penalty with the Civ you canceled the deal with. Then you have to kinda like choose.

2. If you settle close to an enemy you will get border tensions which will result in negative diplo. If you join in on an war as a 3th member you get bonus with your ally too.
Also when A.I. runs out of free land to settle, they tend to search for new "Lebensraum für das Volk", they want your land.

3. Check frequently the Foreign Advisor (F4) glance screen, if some Civ is the worst enemy of another Civ you get negative diplo if you trade techs and resources or gold with them.

For example Montezuma is worst enemy of Pacal, when you make trade deals with Montezuma that will hurt your relations with Pacal.

4. You can improve your relations with other civs when sharing a religion (obiously) and also choosing their favourite civic. You can check the 2nd advice also in
Foreign Advisor (F4) info screen.

5. If you trade resources to another Civ. For example bananas for wine, it will give bonus relation after a couple of turns. dont know the exact number but i guess like 30 or even more. Also if you gift them techs or gold will help, and also make good trades to them. For example you trade Civil Service (1352) beaker for Priesthood (110 beaker).

6. Especially early game it is hard to improve relations. No religion, no alpha, no civics, no currency. Usually only way to impriove relations is to settle a new city and gift it,
just make sure it is a bad city, for example in the desert or tundra, and will do more harm than good.

7. The most A.I. with agrressive trait, for example Montezuma or Shaka will produce a lot of troops and like to attack. But not only these guys for example also Julius Caesar and Napoleon. Others like Ghandi or Mansa Musa will rather tech a lot and be peaceful, Protective leaders (sitting Bull e.g.) will spam a lot of troops and stack them in their cities. You need to read the guide i posed to understand how they behave.

8.Stay out of religions early game if you are unsure about your diplo game. Nothing ruins your relation faster than be in buddhism while all others are in hinduism.

9. You can improve most of your relations with a small amount of gifted gold as soon as you get currency. Like 20-40 gold.

10. Do you have "Bug&Bull" Mod installed? The red fists shows that someone is plotting. Usually but not always they attack their worst enemy. You can decrease the chance of being attacked when being pleased with most civs, and when friendly nearly no other civ will attack you. Julius Caesar and some other heavy warmongers are the exception, they also can plot an attack at friendly. If they are cautios with you, you are always in danger, ofc even more when they hate you.

11. If you are isolated with an A.I. (continents) for example, you are the only one they can possibly attack. Then no red fist (Bug&Bull) will indicate that someone prepares for war.
You just have to be ready at any time.

Here i give the 3 most common ways i use to avoid a DoW (declaration of war) on me, when i see red fist:

a) Build a scout/chariot. Open borders with them and take a look, if they move their troops towards you. Then it is likely they gonna attack you.
b) As soon as you see the red fist appear and you think you might be the target, beg something minor. 20 gold, 4 gold/turn, a tech you nearly finished etc. Then you will get a 10 turn peace treaty where they can t attack you. often they also just stop to plot. Red fists disappears.

You can only beg like once in 30-40 turns and only if they are pleased or friendly with you. So be sure to save your begs for when it counts.

c) Bribe another civ into war with the A.I. that wants to attack you. Then of course they will not go into war with you, because they are already in war.

 

[elementoffear]

Mh okay i can try a top 10 list. I play mostly on immortal difficulty with huts and events, but also on deity but deity difficulty itches and scratches and is not as much fun.

1. It does not matter if you open borders with someone i think. That does not affect diplo, only when they ask you to cancel your trade deals ( including open borders)
you get an penalty with the Civ you canceled the deal with. Then you have to kinda like choose.

2. If you settle close to an enemy you will get border tensions which will result in negative diplo. If you join in on an war as a 3th member you get bonus with your ally too.
Also when A.I. runs out of free land to settle, they tend to search for new "Lebensraum für das Volk", they want your land.

3. Check frequently the Foreign Advisor (F4) glance screen, if some Civ is the worst enemy of another Civ you get negative diplo if you trade techs and resources or gold with them.

For example Montezuma is worst enemy of Pacal, when you make trade deals with Montezuma that will hurt your relations with Pacal.

4. You can improve your relations with other civs when sharing a religion (obiously) and also choosing their favourite civic. You can check the 2nd advice also in
Foreign Advisor (F4) info screen.

5. If you trade resources to another Civ. For example bananas for wine, it will give bonus relation after a couple of turns. dont know the exact number but i guess like 30 or even more. Also if you gift them techs or gold will help, and also make good trades to them. For example you trade Civil Service (1352) beaker for Priesthood (110 beaker).

6. Especially early game it is hard to improve relations. No religion, no alpha, no civics, no currency. Usually only way to impriove relations is to settle a new city and gift it,
just make sure it is a bad city, for example in the desert or tundra, and will do more harm than good.

7. The most A.I. with agrressive trait, for example Montezuma or Shaka will produce a lot of troops and like to attack. But not only these guys for example also Julius Caesar and Napoleon. Others like Ghandi or Mansa Musa will rather tech a lot and be peaceful, Protective leaders (sitting Bull e.g.) will spam a lot of troops and stack them in their cities. You need to read the guide i posed to understand how they behave.

8.Stay out of religions early game if you are unsure about your diplo game. Nothing ruins your relation faster than be in buddhism while all others are in hinduism.

9. You can improve most of your relations with a small amount of gifted gold as soon as you get currency. Like 20-40 gold.

10. Do you have "Bug&Bull" Mod installed? The red fists shows that someone is plotting. Usually but not always they attack their worst enemy. You can decrease the chance of being attacked when being pleased with most civs, and when friendly nearly no other civ will attack you. Julius Caesar and some other heavy warmongers are the exception, they also can plot an attack at friendly. If they are cautios with you, you are always in danger, ofc even more when they hate you.

11. If you are isolated with an A.I. (continents) for example.

Here i give the 3 most common ways i use to avoid a DoW (declaration of war) on me, when i see red fist:

a) Build a scout/chariot. Open borders with them and take a look, if they move their troops towards you. Then it is likely they gonna attack you.
b) As soon as you see the red fist appear and you think you might be the target, beg something minor. 20 gold, 4 gold/turn, a tech you nearly finished etc. Then you will get a 10 turn peace treaty where they can t attack you. often they also just stop to plot. Red fists disappears.

You can only beg like once in 30-40 turns and only if they are pelased or friendly with you. So be sure to save your begs when it counts.

c) Bribe another civ into war with the A.I. that wants to attack you. Then of course they will not go into war with you, because they are already in war.

Excellent!!! definitely going to try and re play the game with this in mind. This is exactly what I needed! thank you.

BTW, I use steam and I think I installed the BUG@Bull once but it sort of disappeared after a while. Anyone have any installation tips for steam?

 

[Olafeson]

Oh, just one last thing, i was reading some forum articles and there was the information given by lymond (a hall of fame moderator) that no A.I. can actually start plotting on you when you are friendly with them. I guess in the games that happened to me then, they must have started plotting at pleased, and declared ward when we got friendly relations.

So hope that this will clear my mistake out. Regarding point 10 i stated.

Plotting on you while friendly = not possible
Declaring war on you while friendly = possible if they started plotting a war on you while your relations have been pleased. Then later got friendly.

Plotting = A.I. preparing for a war on you later. Producing troops and ships.

Also about Bug and Bull. Not sure, cant remember, installed it a long time ago, but i think it should not be a big issue. But i really recommend using this mod.
It does not change the game at all, just improves the interface and visibility of hidden game mechanics.

 

[salty mud]

I was under the impression Catherine can and does plot at friendly.

 

[Olafeson]

I was under the impression Catherine can and does plot at friendly.

I can only quote him. I would have to read the "Civ Illustrated" guide again".

Quote from lymond : No A.I. can plot at friendly, while Catherine is the only A.I. that can be bribed against a Civ , she is friendly with.

Got my information from an old AZ youtube video, may not be accurate.

 

[Pangaea]

I can only quote him. I would have to read the "Civ Illustrated" guide again".

Quote from lymond : No A.I. can plot at friendly, while Catherine is the only A.I. that can be bribed against a Civ , she is friendly with.

Got my information from an old AZ youtube video, may not be accurate.

This is correct. No AI can start plotting while Friendly with you, but the one exception is Catherine, who can be bribed to war against you even if she is Friendly with you. But she must be Friendly with the AI trying to bribe. So although it can happen, it shouldn't keep you up at night

An excellent list above @Olafeson

 

[Gasp]

Hi, I started to play this NC finally. It's a nice map, thanks for posting!

Immortal, NHNE.

Spoiler To turn 150 - 800 AD :

I started with AH then, discovering Horses, my idea was to skip BW and build cottages ASAP so I did TW > Ag> Pottery > BW
Settled as I said 1E, second city next to gold. I wanted to block some land from Gilgamesh and settle east (Pig+Marble) but it didn't seem like the right thing to do. Moscow built almost all settlers/workers it's a nice productive capitol in the beginning.
I settled 5 cities then started to chop/whip HAs mainly. I DoWed Gil and took Kish (the Pig+Marble city) directly then moved very slowly to his capitol. It was not easy with these hill cities. After I too his capitol though I didn't encounter any resistance. Made peace to get his techs then finished him 10t later. I continued building an army, adding cats and elephants in order to take Hatty. It was too easy... That's where I am.
Unless I decide to attack Ragnar (but I don't think so) it's probably the moment I'm going to recycle my army into happy faces for my cities and run caste.

The Ottomans are big, tech leader, and going to kill Brennus some time soon... Are they going to be a problem?

 

[elementoffear]

Hi, I started to play this NC finally. It's a nice map, thanks for posting!

Immortal, NHNE.

Spoiler To turn 150 - 800 AD :

I started with AH then, discovering Horses, my idea was to skip BW and build cottages ASAP so I did TW > Ag> Pottery > BW
Settled as I said 1E, second city next to gold. I wanted to block some land from Gilgamesh and settle east (Pig+Marble) but it didn't seem like the right thing to do. Moscow built almost all settlers/workers it's a nice productive capitol in the beginning.
I settled 5 cities then started to chop/whip HAs mainly. I DoWed Gil and took Kish (the Pig+Marble city) directly then moved very slowly to his capitol. It was not easy with these hill cities. After I too his capitol though I didn't encounter any resistance. Made peace to get his techs then finished him 10t later. I continued building an army, adding cats and elephants in order to take Hatty. It was too easy... That's where I am.
Unless I decide to attack Ragnar (but I don't think so) it's probably the moment I'm going to recycle my army into happy faces for my cities and run caste.
View attachment 487705
The Ottomans are big, tech leader, and going to kill Brennus some time soon... Are they going to be a problem?

@Gasp :

Spoiler :

So what made you go for HA as the attack stack? why not wait for elephants ? or why not really early axes?

 

[Gasp]

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

If you read well, I didn't research BW directly, so axe where not available before T40 I think. By the time I improved the copper, Gilgamesh had Swords. He is building many units and stands on hills = an axe rush was impossible. In fact, after I did research BW, I went straight for HBR (we need the tech for Elephants anyway).
When I got the situation, I knew I had to attack Gil as soon as I could before he becomes a problem, I thought I couldn't wait till Construction because by then who knows how big his army could be. The man was also first to Alpha, very early, and a big tech leader apparently. HA have two advantages here: they are moving fast and they are available early. I was able to pillage his Iron 2T after I DoW and I pillaged around his capitol to make it useless, to kill reinforcement coming.
HAs were also enough to kill Hatty's archers and War Chariot haha. She has 1 remaining city on an island... she forces me to build a Galley!

One important reason for HA here is that I get land very early and still have a strong army (elepults now). I could for example kill Ragnar or kill Brennus with it.

 

[elementoffear]

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

If you read well, I didn't research BW directly, so axe where not available before T40 I think. By the time I improved the copper, Gilgamesh had Swords. He is building many units and stands on hills = an axe rush was impossible. In fact, after I did research BW, I went straight for HBR (we need the tech for Elephants anyway).
When I got the situation, I knew I had to attack Gil as soon as I could before he becomes a problem, I thought I couldn't wait till Construction because by then who knows how big his army could be. The man was also first to Alpha, very early, and a big tech leader apparently. HA have two advantages here: they are moving fast and they are available early. I was able to pillage his Iron 2T after I DoW and I pillaged around his capitol to make it useless, to kill reinforcement coming.
HAs were also enough to kill Hatty's archers and War Chariot haha. She has 1 remaining city on an island... she forces me to build a Galley!

One important reason for HA here is that I get land very early and still have a strong army (elepults now). I could for example kill Ragnar or kill Brennus with it.

@Gasp , I tried playing the game and recreating your moves exactly :

Spoiler :

Ignoring the advantage of knowing everything in advance, I still couldn't take more than 1 city (kish), what sort of stack (number, promotions etc...) did you use in order to wipe Gili? I do admit forgetting about the iron for a few turns so he did manage to build 1 spearman, but stil..

Any other tips?

 

[unas876]

@Gasp

Spoiler :

Really you had to kill Gilgamesh before he became a problem? In my game I just gifted him a city but probably didn't even really need to do that since it's easy to keep him and also a bunch of other guys happy with early Monarchy/HR. +4 favorite civic bonus is nothing to sneeze at. I am currently comfortably on my way to Lib, in a 15 turn GA still (Taj + Music + MoM), have a bunch of Horse Archers and Elephants ready to be upgraded and still a bunch of forests and production and whipping power for Cuirassiers to stomp hopefully the whole map, probably even while teching to Rifling.
Any chance you can post a tech screen? Tech pace in my game is awfully slow. Also I already scouted Gilgamesh and he has next to nothing, even though he was in war with Hatchet earlier.

Or in short, I think it's debatable whether an early attack is the best choice on this map.

 

[Pangaea]

Getting DOWed early certainly wasn't the best 'option'

 

[Anysense]

Or in short, I think it's debatable whether an early attack is the best choice on this map.

If you don't attack early, you have an excellent 'option' of getting butchered early. Might be not too bad on Immortal if you manage to grab copper.

 

[Gasp]

I don't really have any tips, go into the war as strong as you can; scout well your enemy to gauge their power and capacity to denfend their city... build your army accordingly.
Although, there might be a tip for some here: Don't keep your units on one tile when you can pillage and block roads around the city you attack. Also the AI is sometimes going to take the bait and get 1 unit out of his city to attack you.

Spoiler :

@elementoffear I did DoW on 400 BC, maybe you were too slow? Took Kish that turn, then moved east, got Lagash (razed) 2T later) and I get Uruk on 150 BC. My stack was exclusively composed of HAs, I had probably like 10 or 12 in the beginning with combat promotion. I lost many on Kish but I still had enough to move on and arrive to Uruk with reinforcement.

@unas876 It's not that I feared Gilga was going to DoW me (even though I need to avoid that) but I saw him growing too fast and too strong. I don't wan't such a neighbor. And I especially don't want to attack a strong neighbor later when I can cripple or kill him early.

Here is a tech screen on T150. I bribed Sule to attack Brennus (whom was bribed to attack me) which I think helped him a lot