Nobles' Club 228: Frederick of Germany

[sylvanllewelyn]

Thank you for all the advice. After I finish I will reload and try alternative approaches. Anyone else reporting victories or defeats yet?

Immortal, NHNE, 0700AD-1150AD

AD1060: first contact.

Spoiler :

The two civs had different priorities. They are builders, not thinkers, and hogged many wonders.

AD1150: state of the union.

Spoiler :

I could trade those two techs away once they finish astronomy... and I finish machinery & optics! Or I could do something else.

I sometimes find it helpful to sit for a few minutes and think about each turn before making moves.

Someone other player got the circumnavigation bonus, possibly because I sold my map. Can’t be helped.

 

[Snowbird]

After I finish I will reload and try alternative approaches. Anyone else reporting victories or defeats yet?

I quit in disgust after a barb archer defeated a healthy axe (it was promoted archer and axe had no defense bonuses, but still).

Spoiler :

Otherwise, I was looking for 3 city elepult rush (except barbs having free path to third city with ivory). Bulbed maths with GS and dodged fishing (thinking that I might need bulb machinery on the way to optics -- grand bulbing plan was math/machinery/optics, IIRC). Between barb infested jungle and lack of happiness, I would probably skip fishing anyway.

With both AI's having around 7/8 cities, elepult would probably claim the land, extort some techs and then get optics (pray getting something in trade for that). Not sure how much viable it was (likely would need to tech metal casting on my own, Toku having bazillion units, etc).

 

[Jellybug]

I sometimes find it helpful to sit for a few minutes and think about each turn before making moves.

I move my mouth away from the microphone so people cannot hear my breathing.

 

[Tobiyogi]

hmmm, difficult start....i will do this on IMM.
Decided to SIP and to grow on a warrior. If i went worker and AGRI first, he could farm the corn and a FP what I don't like too much. So i go warrior and BW first, while growing to size 2, whipping the worker and probably mining a forested hill first (FISHING next). I rate the clam higher than the dry corn because we really lack the commerce here.
Also early warrior can open up a possible worker steal...
Tech order BW > FISH > AGRI > WHEEL > POTT

 

[sampsa]

@Tobiyogi Pretty sure worker first is a lot better than spending ages of time to get a boat. If you lack , prioritize getting a connected 2nd city out fast.

Guess I need to try out the start though.

 

[dr£ddlord]

Finished....

Spoiler :

 

[shakabrade]

Pretty sure worker first is a lot better than spending ages of time to get a boat

Totally agree. Agri->BW, farm the corn and FP, then depends on the rest of the map, although I'd say that Wheel probably comes before Fishing as you'll be able to connect the 2nd city and increase worker efficiency and defense against barbs. This is somewhere south of the equator, judging from the vegetation (forest type change) and the floodplains. A jungle could be in the north. Also, avoiding Fishing opens up an interesting Engineering bulb with PHI leader, but that depends on how much of the available food is seafood.

 

[Tobiyogi]

For me it's a very tight race between Agri+ worker & Bw/fish start. If i am in the mood, i will make a comparative first 50turns play. Not to forget that work boat can be easily chopped.

 

[sampsa]

Only now I believe that you are a teacher.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I traded world maps with the other civs. According to my personal civ ethics, I can now look at other people’s spoiler comments. No useful information is gleamed.

@dr£ddlord that was a long game. I hope mine will be shorter.

Immortal, NHNE, 1150AD-1380AD

Technology situation. Catching up but still behind.

Spoiler :

I traded with the Inca because they are the only one with astronomy! As for technology, everyone hates me for trading with the Incas, but India is willing to trade with me anyway.

Speaking of trading with everyone's worst enemy:

Spoiler :

Everyone's best buddies with each other and hates my only trading partner. Inca and Germany depend on each other's resources too so I am not canceling trade deals even if they won't trade techs with me.

Not that I care about astronomy... what do I get out of it anyway?

So, how is the situation of my "everyone's worst enemy" trading partner?

Spoiler :

Definitely not good. The Incas do not have a lot of land. Surrounded by enemies. My future war plan depends on razing coastal cities and healing in Incan territory once I need to push inside... if they do not capitulate after losing all their coastal cities.

 

[Qactus]

Spoiler :

 

[AcaMetis]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what causes that TXT_KEY leader name issue? I noticed it pop up in the Stalin game as well in a few cases, though I've never had it show up ingame myself as far as I remember.

 

[Tobiyogi]

So here comes my compared gameplay or "teaching" on Immortal

Spoiler T44: Growing to size 2 on a warrior, worker steal, no mod :

At T44, i am in no bad position, 2 cities at size 3/1, started right now on a next settler, BW/fish/agri/wheel/pottery (-1turn). 3 workers and 3 warriors. All fronts are quite safe against barbs. Have to admit that all combats went very well, so this situation is really ideal. Took a worker from Pacal, could even destroy 2 farms, kill a scout and make peace again. Due to pillage money, I could also research slightly better.

Spoiler T45: Building worker first, no FISHING, Bat mod :

Building worker while going for Agri. I assumed not to know that there is copper, so I did not adapt my worker moves beforehand. I would have gone for BW as a 2nd tech anyway, because otherwise there would be no hill to mine. When the tech came in, i first finished my chop on the western hill and then went for the copper mine. Due to lack of stolen worker, I connected my cities later. This time, I placed Hamburg more to the west in order to grab the cows later. I have the same techs, but no Fishing. Started already on AH. Research is slightly worse, no pillage money, later connection of cities. But cities have better size and in berlin, i have already put 50H into next settler. Vulnerable to barbs on the eastern "front" but could whip a Spear in Hamburg.

It's tough to decide which position is better. On a pure economic basis, without worker steal and stuff, I would definitely say, going worker first and avoiding FISH is better, because I work the clams only part-time anyway and it's only 1 clam in a good position while there are 2 AH resources and AH brings me closer to Writing. Not sure if I would delay fishing until Machinery/Eng though, because the Incense and a (half-price) lighthouse would boost the capitol tremendously.

Forgot to say that in my 2nd attempt, I also tried to get a worker from "someone" but he didn't show up so kindly on the borders. Having an early warrior is much better of course.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Here is what happened next after I kept on playing from the Batmod-save (worker first). No intermediate steps, already 620 AD.

Spoiler T141 :

Built the GLH but could not settle as much as I wanted because of a barb city to the NW that I will take only now with Maces. To the east, i decided to gift a city to Tokugawa to open borders and to make some minor trades. But sooner or later, i will reconquer Dortmund! With the Merchant i got first i bulbed MC and soon after that decided to try for the Colossus as well. On Immortal, you can do that and as i had not as many coastal cities as i wanted, i could at least raise their quality, so good decision. Also I am not in a rush for Astro, as i have a good tech pace anyway and will be quite busy to take out the guys on my continent. No time for caravels and stuff and as I am almost at Eng, i have all the techs that i need at the moment to go for a Mace/Xbow/Treb-attack. Most likely against Pacal, he has the Shrine and is usually weaker than Toku. As i bulbed Philo recently, I started my first GA right now. Food situation is exceptionally good on this map, so I can hope for 3 GP during the GA, all of my cities are buddhist i believe.

 

[sampsa]

@Tobiyogi I wasn't really suggesting that teachers have a habit to teach (many do to a certain extent, but that is not an issue), but that they have a habit of not listening when they probably should be listening. Heck, the amount of nonsense you guys must filter every day must be insane.

Your saves:

Spoiler :

I don't think those saves are really comparable. Yes, warrior first allows the possibility of a worker steal, but you must evaluate the possibility that you can pull it off AND the possibility that it's a good play. I guess here the circumstances are such that it's both possible and a good play. Perhaps unlucky in your worker first attempt that you couldn't do it. I don't understand the different placement of 2nd city and no farmed floodplain.

 

[Tobiyogi]

@Tobiyogi I wasn't really suggesting that teachers have a habit to teach (many do to a certain extent, but that is not an issue), but that they have a habit of not listening when they probably should be listening.

Quite the contrary, I was definitely "listening" (or reading) and because i had a strong suspicion that version No. 2 must be the stronger one (because not depending on combat luck), i started that one on batmod to keep on playing afterwards. For me, being teacher (i don't work at public schools but in individual lessons) means that i want only transmitt knowledge or insights i have experienced on my own, and not something i read in books (or in a forum ). That's why i try things out with a certain stubborness, and i almost never regret it.
The floodplain, well, i started farming one of them, but then BW came in and I did not finish the task. And very soon, i ran cottages there. Is it better in a food situation like that one to delay at least one cottage and to run a farm there?

 

[sampsa]

Okay, it was your response of

For me it's a very tight race between Agri+ worker & Bw/fish start.

that got me. You had just been told by two pretty decent players that it's not a very tight race and I'm glad you understood it despite not directly admitting it.

Not sure I see the point of putting worker turns into farming and then not finishing the farm. Different placement also drains 2 extra worker turns to connect, but of course 2nd ring cow is worth something.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Never a problem for me to admit something, as I told you, i love to make my own experience first before simply believing. However, i know who has a lot of experience on this forum and who will probably tell the right things. So it's no contradiction for me to believe someone and to say at the same time "feels like a tight race to me, i want to find out"

2nd city placement was not an easy decision, short-term, it's worse because needs an extra road, destroys a forest... But long-term, i wanted to have that production and there was no really another city spot to grab the cow.

Edit: If i look at my first screenshot now, I would say that 2nd city at the river (1E of the corn) is better and probably 3rd city south of the cow to grab eventually the ivory + FP.

 

[pandamancer]

Tried this on deity... I gave up at around 350AD

Spoiler Where did I settle my first city? :

After moving the scout, found two flood plains on top. Settled on the corn.

Spoiler :

Went for Agriculture > The Wheel > Pottery > Fishing > Myst > AH > Writing > Math. The wonders were gone so fast as this was on deity (I did not even attempted). Met Pacal and Toku early on. Quite disappointing that they did not even found any religion. On my third city Toku started to plot on me (as he is friendly on Pacal). founded two more cities when he DOWed.



As a prevention, I placed axes in a wall like manner. Taking advantage of the forest terrain. Most of the time the exchange is 1:1 to 1:2 so I needed to regularly reinforce my line. While buying my time, the first GS constructed an academy in my 2nd city as this will be my future capital due to rich riverside green tiles. Went for Masonry > Construction for catapult+axe counterattack. Razed one of this cities and captured Osaka at around 125AD. Around this time, he sued for peace for a number of techs. I took it as I found his cites not very impressive. A few turns later, he vassaled to Pacal.



This game is so messed up. No useful wonders for Toku or Pacal. Pacal was first in Christianity and Confucianism yet no AP. Angkor Wat at around 25AD?! I lost my motivation to continue.

As a post mortem analysis:

Spoiler Why I think this map is very luck based :

Spoiler Don't Continue if you plan to play this game :

I opened the WorldBuilder and I saw two IND leaders in the other continent. All of the AIs in the other continent have 1 stone and/or marble. No wonder Pacal and Toku are having a hard time getting wonders.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Why settle the capitol on the corn, if I may ask? It's dry corn, but that's still a strong food tile, better than a 3 city centre IMO.