Nobles' Club 289: Willem van Oranje of the Netherlands


Jan 2, 2021
@soundjata @konata_LS

Spoiler :
I researched all of Metal Casting, Alphabet, Monarchy, Iron Working, before I reached the techs for War Elephants. I was slow to elephants because I had expected to not get ivory. I now rewind my game by reloading the save from a turn before I declared war. This reload doesn't give earlier elephants, but does allow me to redo the war while making better use of Slavery.

Rewind my game from T199 to T151 by loading the old save.

Spoiler (Caravel!) Emperor, 1620 AD T234, redoing the first war :

Rewind the game to 820 AD T151, undoing the war. By T151, I have researched Sailing, Masonry, Metal Casting, Alphabet, Monarchy, Iron Working, then Construction and Horseback Riding (War Elephant), and finally Optics (Caravel). I had traded with Brennus in T144 to get Code of Laws, Meditation, Priesthood, and Archery. I had completed the Great Lighthouse in 1200 BC T70, but missed the Colossus. My 6th city Six North stole ivory from Brennus; I have copper and ivory, but not horse nor iron. My 7 cities in T151 have 7 Granary, 7 Library, 6 Barracks, 5 Forge, 4 Lighthouse, 3 Stable.

I again declare war on Brennus in 840 AD T152. My first moves are the same: I convert to no state religion, declare war, move 5 War Elephants and 2 Catapults from my northwest city Gold Medal (they capture a Worker), and move 4 War Elephants and 6 Catapults from my northeast city Six North. My cities become unhappy for a few reasons: I lose a happy resource, because I stopped trading my gem for Brennus's wine. I lose my state religion and its +1 happy. "We will not fight with our brothers and sisters in the Faith!", because all 7 of my cities have Brennus's state religion. Before the rewind, I built 20 Axemen to happify my cities (with Hereditary Rule); but now, I don't build Axemen, but do use Slavery to whip away angry citizens. (I don't whip Corneria, where I have the Moai Statues.) I hurry an elephant or siege unit when it costs 2 population; this slays 2 angry citzens but makes 1 angry from Slavery, which is still a net loss of 1 angry citizen. I get fewer Axemen defending my cities, and more units fighting Brennus.

I again conquer Tolosa on the west coast in 1000 AD T160. Before the rewind, my units advanced from Tolosa to Camulodunum; but now, my units stay to defend Tolosa. Both sides accumulate units near Vienne on the east coast. Before the rewind, I sacrificed some Catapults and slew some of Vienne's defenders; but now, I only bombard my defenses, until Brennus forces my retreat in 1070 AD T167. I learn Engineering in T168 and prove the world round (+1 ship movement) in T169. My eastern army, having retreated from Vienne, stops to heal on my side of the river, in range of my Khalid ibn al-Walid (Medic III Warrior). Brennus loses multiple units by attacking from across the river. Ibn al-Walid then advances and conquers Vienne in 1150 AD T175.


While I attack Vienne, Brennus tries to retake Tolosa. I want to pillage the ivory camps near Tolosa, but my elephant (going to pillage) spots Brennus's army. I move my elephants such that Brennus attacks across a river, and wastes his City Raider promotions. After the fall of Vienne, Brennus puts his army outside Tolosa. I sacrifice 3 Catapults and slay 5 units, but then make peace with Brennus, who gives Feudalism and gold.



At the end of the war in 1190 AD T179, I have lost 12 of 24 Catapults, 10 of 35 War Elephants, and 1 of 5 Trebuchets. This is much better than before the rewind, when it was 20 turns later (1390 AD T199), and I had lost 16 of 17 Catapults and 29 of 36 War Elephants. After the rewind, I built 20 fewer Axemen, and sacrificed more slaves; I conquered Vienne, and didn't lose Tolosa. The war is a small victory: I gained 2 cities, so my 9 cities are now more than Brennus's 7 cities; but Brennus keeps his capital Bibtracte (with the Mahabodhi), and he keeps both iron and the only horse on our continent.

Because I just got Feudalism (Vassalage) from Brennus, I revolt in T17 to adopt Vassalage and Caste System. After a turn of Anarchy, I switch most cities to Wealth. I learn Drama, then run for Astronomy. The Great Lighthouse in Vuurtoren yields my 2nd Great Merchant. I had stashed my 1st Great Merchant (also from Vuurtoren) in my capital, but put the new one on a Caravel toward Zara Yaqob's Ethiopia.


The merchant becomes 1500 gold at Aksum. This is more than enough gold to learn Astronomy in 1460 AD T206, and upgrade 2 boats from Galley to East Indiaman. I am first to Astronomy, but Suleiman seems close.

I trade away Astronomy, then reload my save and trade it differently. I trade Astronomy to Suleiman for 25 gold; Astronomy plus 65 gold to Brennus for Civil Service and Guilds; Astronomy to Hatshepsut for Music, Paper, map plus 50 gold. Cyrus refuses to talk, because I recently accepted Hatshepsut's demand to stop trading with Cyrus. I avoid trading with Zara Yaqob, who is now Hatshepsut's worst enemy. (After Hatshepsut changes her worst enemy back to Cyrus, I get Printing Press from the Zara.)
Hatshepsut is Friendly and offers to export horse and iron, but iron is too expensive at 89 gold per turn plus some resources. I refuse to import horse and iron (but trade other resources with Hatshepsut and Suleiman), and decide to run for Military Science, so I can attack Brennus with Grenadiers. I also run my 2 boats toward the last horse and iron on the map. Each East Indiaman carries a Settler, 2 Workers, and an elephant. One of them finds unclaimed land on the island Sint Maarten.


Hatshepsut had put a city Pi-Ramesses on Sint Maarten, but she never annexed the southwest tundra horse. This is lucky for me; I settle Philipsburg in 1490 AD T209, and soon connect the horse. One turn later, my other East Indiaman approaches the peninsula Curaçao.


Curaçao is north of Tokugawa's Japan, but Tokugawa got stuck in a war against Zara Yaqob and never settled here, so I settle Willemstad in 1500 AD T210, near a desert iron, and soon connect the iron. I am lucky to grab the last horse and last iron on the map. (My game is in Emperor, so the AI expands slower than in Immortal or Deity.) I change my research path after I get Gunpowder from T210, turning away from Chemistry and Military Science (Grenadier), and toward Nationalism and Military Tradition (Cuirassier).


My first East Indiaman returns from Philipsburg, gets a second load, and sails to the Hindu continent of Hatshepsut and Suleiman, where I settle Nieuw-Zeeland "New Zealand" in 1550 AD T220. I would put my city farther south, by corn and pig, but Cyrus settled Sardis there; I instead grab the last corn and fish. Cyrus also settles 2 cities on Curaçao. There is also a barb city-state on Curaçao, until I attack it.


I conquer Kushans (my 13th city) in 1580 AD T226. The barb city had 5 Longbowmen behind Walls, and had survived some attacks from other civs. I attack with 5 War Elephants and 4 Trebuchets. I lose an elephant, and need a 2nd turn to slay the last wounded longbow; the other civs miss their chance to take Kushans between my T225 and T226.

I want to reach Military Tradition (Cuirassier) before Brennus, and I am early to Gunpowder, but I am late to Nationalism. Brennus uses spies to steal Gunpowder and Philosophy from me, then becomes 1 of 3 civs to learn Military Tradition before I finish it in 1620 AD T234. Upkeep for 13 cities and a large army has slowed my research. The next war might be Cuirassier versus Cuirassier, unless Brennus reaches Rifling.


Apr 18, 2021
Spoiler :

It seems your empire looks better now :goodjob:.

As you have settled and captured some cities in another continent, I suggest researching Communism after you get the necessary military techs. Without State Property unlocked by Communism, the maintenance of the cities on the other continent would be very high.


Oct 4, 2020
Turn 1-127. Deity Difficulty.

Spoiler :

SIP. AH Mining BW. We are crammed in a corner. we are fin with rivers. commerce no problem. expansion very important.

2nd city claims both gems north
3rd city claims rice and FP east
4th city gifted so i dont die
capital stays at size 4 producing settlers until rest of land is backfilled, ideally by 1000BC then we start teching with libraries + academy. my BPT went from 46 at t75 to 133 at T93.

Turn 101

Turn 116

Turn 127

Probably the earliest optics & astro I have ever gotten. FIN is overpowered. At the point I have astro, civil service is 1 turn away from finishing also. That's the most disgusting pre-civil service, pre astro BPT I have seen with only having 6 cities :)
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Apr 18, 2021
Spoiler :
although additional pre-Optics first contact is not impossible
Excuse me for interrupting, but I saw the discussion between @ AcaMetis and @ Henrik75 on YT. It seems you hold different points of view because both of you look at the game from different angles. Something is impossible on Deity may become doable on lower levels. So I took the Noble save and ran a quick test about additional pre-Optics contact:

Spoiler contact another continent before getting Compass :

The difficulty level is Noble. No huts:

2 cities Axe rush Brennus - such rush works well at the difficulty levels that AIs start with Warriors. On Deity Brennus got 11 cities before 1000BC; on Noble Brennus is just pathetic as all the other Noble AIs. He went straight for Poly-Masonry-Monotheism and didn't even have BW. I guess he didn't even have Mining, because my Axes didn't see any mine in the Celtic land. Brennus disappeared in 975BC:

On Noble, the maintenance is low, techs cheap, free units abundant, and the barbs are not aggressive; the player can just rush a neighbour then spam cities on the whole continent, especially with a FIN leader and so many riverside tiles.
On higher levels, even the early rush succeeds, it's hard for the human players to afford all these cities without foreign traderoutes. If the players raze some captured cities to cut the maintenance cost, that'll just let barbs spawn there if the area is not fog busted.

Since Brennus' capital had Horse, I teched HBR, build a stable in Amsterdam and a Sentry Chariot (thanks to @ krikav for the "sentry chariot in galley" trick :cool:). As shown in the screenshot below, the sentry chariot can already see the yellow border.

To run this test for "pre-Optics contact", I have to deliberately avoid Optics.

And voilà! before I get Compass and Machinery, Suleiman meets me in 740AD:

Why did he find me? Because my sentry chariot in the galley saw Sully's workboat:

Thus, additional pre-Optics contact is possible, though more likely on lower difficulties than on IMM+. At Noble or Prince level, Suleiman or Hatty may suddenly show up before the human player gets Optics.

As Henrik said he didn't play below Monarch for a long time , he usually judges the situation from Immortal or Deity player's angle. Plus, he might be a little angry or irritated by AI Brennus who stole Optics (I would rage quit if such things happened to me). Axe rush a Deity AI like Brennus is very risky; even if Brennus is destroyed, it's hard to afford 10+ cities before Astro, not to mention all the barbs. So Henrik wouldn't think about grabbing Brennus' horse before Astro. On the other hand, when AcaMetis makes NC maps, he often needs to take care of the newbies at lower levels, as it's basically nobles club, not Immortal banquet or Deity paradise. For those who play at Noble, capturing Horse from Brennus then getting a sentry chariot is totally possible.

Hope this test would give some info about "pre-Optics contact". More exactly, it's a matter of the difference between difficulty levels :).

PS: As I mentioned above, to run this test I have to deliberately avoid Optics. So if some players at Noble level read this post, please do not copy my tech path here. Of course, Noble level is forgiving, but in semi-isolation, after the necessary work or military tech, you usually go for Optics - Astro as soon as possible.
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May 21, 2018
Spoiler :
For me, at least, it's less a matter of what's viable to do on different difficulty levels and more a matter of not presenting a map as semi-iso when it's entirely possible that either you or an AI makes contact before you've discovered Optics (though apparently AIs don't promote units to Sentry, so the AI making unexpected contact might be far less likely than I expected). It may be exceedingly unlikely for it to happen, but in any case Civ IV and statistical probabilities have a long and storied history that ends with a war declaration, so I'm not rolling dice on the map playing out as I expect it to. They usually end up going in completely left field directions, anyway (Hi Sully, great showing of your Imperialistic trait BTW, big fan).


Be like water
Jun 3, 2011
Gosh I need to do my write-up :bounce:

One of the very few games I actually completed... Rushbuy FTW :commerce:
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