Non Americans have EVERY right to complain

[NiceGuy]

Okay, I'm sorry but I just couldn't read through every post in this thread.

First off, though, RedWolf

You're concern about being drafted and sent off to fight in the wilds of Afghanistan are absurd, even if you were not from Canada. There aren't going to be any young men or young women drafted to fight this 'war.' The fighting is going to be done by career special forces, almost exclusively from the United States.

This is not the kind of war you win with numbers, it's the kind you win with superior training and tactics.

Secondly, the bombing of any country, on a large scale, would seriously and quickly erode popular support for this campaign. The U.S. citizens I've talked with universally want justice, not revenge. We understand that most of the people of a nation harboring terrorists have nothing to do with it, and usually don't even know the terrorist are there. None of the people I know want those innocents hurt or killed, and if the U.S. doesn't do everything it can to avoid it, their support will disappear, both internally and internationally.

However, even though I think your fears are unfounded, and your complaints overly loud, go ahead and spout them to your hearts content. The freedom of speech is one of the basic rights accorded by the U.S. Constitution, and if I've got my history right, the United States is the first nation in the world to guarantee that right. Just because a few people are offended by your hostile nature and swearing doesn't mean your right to speak your mind is being suppressed, it just means that you are using it to offend others. Go ahead. Have fun.

You aren't going to get drafted. You aren't going to have to fight anyone. You will be able to sit at home and keep yourself amused by complaining about anything that comes to mind while others try and make the world a safer place, so sit back, grab some nachos, and continue your rant.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by CornMaster:<br /><strong><br />Lefty.....if we want to debate the definition of Democracy then we can until the cows come home. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not conternt with the mere status of "boring *******" you are now trying for "assiduous obstinate boring *******". Flaming little blue smurf dicks !!!, Man, think of your future.

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: Lefty Scaevola ]</p>

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola:<br /><strong>Not conternt with the mere status of "boring *******" you are now trying for "assiduous osbstinate boring *******". Flaming little blue smurf dicks !!!, Man, think of your future.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ahhhhhh.....ok. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

 

[amadeus]

Everyone that hates America never seem to leave.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by NiceGuy:<br /><strong>First off, though, RedWolf

You're concern about being drafted and sent off to fight in the wilds of Afghanistan are absurd, even if you were not from Canada. There aren't going to be any young men or young women drafted to fight this 'war.' The fighting is going to be done by career special forces, almost exclusively from the United States. <br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

Nobody goes to war with the idea using conscript troops. When that point comes it means that things are VERY bad. Leaders who start wars don't actually believe that it will ever get VERY bad. Only a madman would start a war planning on losing. BUT IT STILL HAPPENS doesn't it? it may not be likely in this instance - bit it CAN happen.

<strong>

<br />Secondly, the bombing of any country, on a large scale, would seriously and quickly erode popular support for this campaign. The U.S. citizens I've talked with universally want justice, not revenge. We understand that most of the people of a nation harboring terrorists have nothing to do with it, and usually don't even know the terrorist are there. None of the people I know want those innocents hurt or killed, and if the U.S. doesn't do everything it can to avoid it, their support will disappear, both internally and internationally.<br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not so sure i believe that. Especialy after talking to some of the lunatics in this forum.

A poll on CNN asked "Would you support airstrikes on Afghanistan even if it meant the deaths of civilians?"

The results:

Yes: 48%<br />NO: 46%

<strong>

<br />Just because a few people are offended by your hostile nature and swearing doesn't mean your right to speak your mind is being suppressed, it just means that you are using it to offend others. Go ahead. Have fun.<br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

You mentioned at the top of your post that you couldn't read all of the posts. Maybe you should have. Well I didn't start swearing at anybody. I was stating opionions. The professional soldiers started insulting me first - calling me (and others)whiners simply because I don't agree with dieing for my country.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by Flatlander Fox:<br /><strong>What happens when everybody has that feeling??? <img src="icon9.gif" border="0"> <br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

Well if EVERYBODY had that feeling.. then we wouldn't actually have wars anymore now would we?

I realize this isn't going to ever happen - I'm just saying that people like that are the root of the problem - on BOTH sides.

 

[gjts00]

I think that those posters that are whining about serving their respective countries need to go back and read the story of Chicken Little again. It's funny that during the cold war, no Canadians *****ed about being part of NATO, because at the time it was nothing more than a paper alliance as far as they were concerned. Yet, now that they have to go beyond signing a document, they're sh1ting their pants.

<br />Quite a few others have stated that the US has brought this attack on ourselves, that's the biggest bunch of bullsh1t I've heard in quite some time (and saying that in this forum is saying a mouthful).

It's becoming overly apparent that the US has quite a few fair weather friends. And to those of whom I'm speaking (you know who you are), you probably shouldn't worry as much as you have been. Because, when it actually come time to antie up, some of our so called "allies" will probably be ass holes & elbows for the exit sign anyway.

 

[starlifter]

When I was growing up in Texas in 1973 at a time when the US was going through a lot of turmoil at home and abroad, I remember a Canadian named Gordon Sinclair who made a simple one-man statement at part of his daily broadcast in Canada. His broacast was replayed on American radio, and even made into a record, which I went out and bought. It is a 45 rpm record which I still have to this day, almost 30 years later... though I no longer have the means to play it on my stereo system.

Mr. Sinclair's broadcast was entitled simply "The Americans", and I though I still remember much of it almost verbatim, I found an original copy of his words on the Internet, which I'll place in this post. Many of the references he makes may not have the full impact on those who cannot remember those dark days, and some of his comments are slightly inaccurate in today's context (like about the airliners).

<br />The Americans <br />Aired: June 5, 1973 <br />CFRB, Toronto, Ontario Canada <br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtze. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did. They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger.

Today, the rich bottomland of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan... the Truman Policy... all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas DC-10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times... and safely home again.

You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws... are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians.

And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters... with the year less than half-over... has taken it all and nobody... but nobody... has helped.

ORIGINAL SCRIPT AND AUDIO<br />COURTESY STANDARD BROADCASTING CORPORATION LTD.

(c) 1973 BY GORDON SINCLAIR<br />PUBLISHED BY STAR QUALITY MUSIC (SOCAN)<br />A DIVISION OF UNIDISC MUSIC INC.<br />578 HYMUS BOULEVARD<br />POINTE-CLAIRE, QUEBEC,<br />CANADA, H9R 4T2 <br />------------------------------------

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: starlifter ]</p>

 

[RedWolf]

Ok.. first off. I don't hate Americans. I've always said they're a lot like us and I still think thats true.

Did they deserve that horrible tradgedy? NO. Abbsolutely not. No country deserves that kind of death and destruction. Far too many lives were lost to ever say that.

Did they bring it upon themselves? NO. I don't even believe that.

BUT I do believe that when you go to war with as many people as they do.. you make enemies. Plain and simple. No getting around that. When your cruise missles land in the middle of cities killing innocent people - those inncoent people start to get pretty pissed off. It doesn't take much for one lunatic to come by and rally those people to his cause.

So eventually... someone's gonna smack ya back. It's sad.. it's unfortunate and terrible... but it's also unavoidable.

 

[gjts00]

Originally posted by gjts00:<br /><strong>You too Corn?!?!? Damn, I thought better of you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<br />Well, I interpreted the comments that you made to be of the "I'll take advantage of the privilege of living in the western world, but I won't do my part to help in times of trouble" sort. And if my interpretations of the comments made by you are correct, then yes I do think a damn site less of you (along with anyone else with that type of attitude) than I have in the past. If, on the other hand, my interpretations are wrong, I apologize. But, if that is the case I'd appreciate some clarification before we continue a debate on the issue.

 

[starlifter]

<br />When your cruise missles land in the middle of cities killing innocent people - those inncoent people start to get pretty pissed off. <br /> <hr>

Many Americans were and are very unpleased with the performance of Bill Clinton in office. Many of his actions and decisions betrayed not only the US Military (which he vowed to destroy, over 30 years ago), but America and even the world in general.

Launching cruise missiles with abandon is not excusable and no rational human would do it. But yes, he did it. For instance, the military agreed to launch some CMs against the Sudan target because it was presented as a 'known' chemical weapons factory, which in fact he and his henchmen knew it was not.

For those not in the military, we are actually trained to minimize civilian casualties, and (unlike Mr. Clinton) actually read and attempt to follow the rules of war (yes, there are rules). Our major European allies do too, BTW. We assume greater personal risk in mission planning in order to reduce civilian casualties.

Until last week, relatively few American civilians had an idea what a war zone is like in real life. NYC looks very similiar to places like Sarajevo, and maybe even certain spots in Iraq and Kuwait during the Gulf War.

So yes, innocent civilians have been hit at times in recent years... and unfortunately, some of it was quite needless. But Bush Jr. is not the wreckless Clinton. While there may be some civilian casualties in the coming war, I can tell you such things will be minimized as much as possible.

EDIT: Fix the quote boundaries damaged when the older posts (like this one) were transferred to the new vBBS.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by starlifter:<br /><strong><br />Launching cruise missiles with abandon is not excusable and no rational human would do it. But yes, he did it. For instance, the military agreed to launch some CMs against the Sudan target because it was presented as a 'known' chemical weapons factory, which in fact he and his henchmen knew it was not.<br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

See? Why can't Americans admit that this is wrong? Without getting defensive. I KNOW that the majority of Americans are good people - yet I also understand WHY some people around the world hate them - and the above mentioned incident is one of many examples. Both sides have to start distinguishing between the people who actually commit these acts.. (ie: politcians) and the people that are just trying to live their lives. (ie: the general population).

It still doesn't by ANY means justify the world trade center boming.. not EVER. Yet to say what I am saying means to come under attack by Americans - as if I'm saying that they DESERVED it or something? I mean good god. I'm a human being. The loss of life is staggering - and heart breaking.

I think that i'm all fought out. I'm tired of arguing... and I'm tured of yelling at people. It's just become sadness for me now. I'm sad about where we as humans are going... When one act of violence lends itself to one being committed by the other side.. which causes the other side to hit back and so on and so on. It's madness.

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: RedWolf ]</p>

 

[gjts00]

Originally posted by RedWolf:<br /><strong>

See? Why can't Americans admit that this is wrong? Without getting defensive. I KNOW that the majority of Americans are good people - yet I also understand WHY some people around the world hate them - and the above mentioned incident is one of many examples. Both sides have to start distinguishing between the people who actually commit these acts.. (ie: politcians) and the people that are just trying to live their lives. (ie: the general population).

It still doesn't by ANY means justify the world trade center boming.. not EVER. Yet to say what I am saying means to come under attack by Americans - as if I'm saying that they DESERVED it or something? I mean good god. I'm a human being. The loss of life is staggering - and heart breaking.

I think that i'm all fought out. I'm tired of arguing... and I'm tured of yelling at people. It's just become sadness for me now. I'm sad about where we as humans are going... When one act of violence lends itself to one being committed by the other side.. which causes the other side to hit back and so on and so on. It's madness.

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: RedWolf ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

<br />You're entitled to critisize the US any time you want. And some of it may be warranted. But, don't chuck a brick at us & expect us to smile back at you, it's the way people are. We're all given to defending our own (especially when it comes from an outside source), weather it's right or wrong. You couldn't have picked a worse time to critisize the US than last week (or anyone else in a like situation, for that matter). I mean think, for those of us that hadn't been born before WWII, 9/11/01 was the WORST day of our lifetime, in fact if we live another hundred years, it's not likely that we'll see another one as bad. If you didn't know better than that before last week, IMO you should by now. I don't think that any of the beratement that you recieved was unjust. Some of it may have been on the abrasive side, but all of it justified, none the less. The moral of the story...If you're going to rub salt on someone's wounds (and weather you meant to or not, that's what you did), don't be surprised when they punch you in the face.

As far as your take on one voilent act snowballing...Thats human nature, plain & simple. Vengance is but one form of self preservation. And the fact is that, self preservation is the strongest instinct in the world. That's the way things have always been & that's the way they're always going to be. It's not going to change now.

 

[starlifter]

by RedWolf:

-----------------------------------------------
quote: Originally posted by starlifter:

Launching cruise missiles with abandon is not excusable and no rational human would do it. But yes, he did it. For instance, the military agreed to launch some CMs against the Sudan target because it was presented as a 'known' chemical weapons factory, which in fact he and his henchmen knew it was not.

-----------------------------------------------

See? Why can't Americans admit that this is wrong? Without getting defensive. I KNOW that the majority of Americans are good people - yet I also understand WHY some people around the world hate them - and the above mentioned incident is one of many examples.

I hope you're not soft between the ears, dude. I'm not only an American, but in the American Military, and have participated in every major action in the 1990's.

See? Why can't Americans admit that this is wrong? Without getting defensive.

I not only said it was wrong, I condemn it (as a priviate individual), and have opposed (as a private individual) wreckless decisions like this by Clinton. And I'm not "defensive".... So what exatly is the context of your remarks, bud?

It is a big coincidence that just as I am typing this that Bill Clinton is on TV at this moment trying to justify and "spin" the questions about why he refused time and time and time again to act against terrorism and bin Laden. His limp excuse is the the "intelligence" was not good enough to guarantee they could get bin Laden. Translated, he is saying that he was not willing to act because of possible harm not to the US Soldiers that would be involved, but the political questions that might somehow "taint" him if the operation failed to get bin Laden.

I won't go into a general discourse on the treacherous actions of Clinton in this thread, but rest assured I could, and history will judge him harshly... not so much for his actions that enabled this specific act of terrorism, but for the more horrendous consequences that are yet to come in the Middle East, Europe and America. He will be judged by history, but in fact it is now irrelevant... since he is out of office. But he is still nonetheless a disgusting human being who bears responsibility for the senseless killing of over 800,000 people on three continents while in office. Now count 5,200+ to his indirect total.

I KNOW that the majority of Americans are good people - yet I also understand WHY some people around the world hate them.

I understand not only why, but in many cases who. And the answer is not the same in Central Africa vs. southern Somalia vs. evil Red China vs. Sudan vs. Iraq vs. Libya vs. Cuba vs. Iran vs. evil North Korea vs. Afganistan... ... ...

If you are knowledgeable and not a blow hard, and can enunciate with alacrity, please pick a specific with which you are personally familiar and share it with us. Many in America might learn something (really!) if you can be accurate and rational. Many around the world do hold America in low regard, and perhaps ironically, most in America truly have no idea why.

EDIT: Typos; Fix the quote boundaries damaged when the older threads (like this one) were transferred to the new vBBS.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by starlifter:<br /><strong><br />I not only said it was wrong, I condemn it (as a priviate individual), and have opposed (as a private individual) wreckless decisions like this by Clinton. And I'm not "defensive".... So what exatly is the context of your remarks, bud? <br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry Starlifter. I wasn't disagreeing with you (for once <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ) I was agreeing and wondering why OTHER Americans can't sometimes see both sides of the coin. I just said it in a bad way.

I'm going to reply to the other stuff if i get a chance.. but lunch break is over. <img src="icon9.gif" border="0">

 

[Dogberry_Old]

For the Record .. Non-Americans DO have a right to complain...& Americans have an obligation to listen, whether we agree or not. It would help if the comments on both sides were not tinged with hysteria & or anger.

Gits00, I believe, made a comment that if we live another 100 years we were unlikely to see another day like Black Tuesday. That is being awful naive. The US, given the present state of the world has an obligation to act under the present circumstances, unlike that of most others. If we choose not to act.. that will certainly have its consequences also. I just pray that in the end, we act with both wisdom & no little amount of luck.

You have to ask yourself .. in the end, if you were unfortunate to have been a passenger in Flight 93 ( the one that crashed near Pittsburgh ) if you would have fought with the others..or stayed in the seats "hoping for the best".

Dog