Non Americans have EVERY right to complain

[gjts00]

HOOAH!!!! That's a hardcore resume you've got there RLTW. I served in the 3rd Rgr Bn from 91 to 94. Peace time military service is very trying. I would reinlist if I was still single. But now, I've got a wife, a son and another on the way.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by gjts00:<br /><strong>People who ***** about doing their part to maintain liberty when it comes to blows make me SICK!!! Hey Red Wolf, do you love freedom? Do you like living in a 1st world country? Do you like the fact that you have a roof over your head & something to eat every day? Do you remember & appreciate the sacrifices made by our grandfathers' generation to maintain those things that we hold dear? If you answered yes to any of those questions, you need to sack up & start acting like a man. If you answered no to those questions, you need to wrap a towel around your head, get off the fence & go join up with your buddy Bin Laden (whom you seem to be so fond of defending). As others have said terrorism is everyone's problem. Don't be a fair weather patriot. Weather you like it or not, the enemy is inside the gates. The time for half measures & talk has passed. If you're scared, just say you're scared. God knows the rest of us are.<br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

You know what? If i didn't think you were an ******* BEFORE... I certainly do now.

First off... When have I EVER defebded Bin Laden? Not once. Just because I'm a liberal I must support terrorism? You make me sick. If you'd follow my posts you'd see that i even said i'd support a covert team of American special forces arresting/killing Bin Laden. I don't have a problem with military strikes... a long as it's done properly. (ie: without dragging the free world into it.. and without killing innocents)

I should start acting like a man eh? yes.. killing people makes me MUCH more of a man than those pansies that want to use their brains once in a while. We all know how god damn intelligent WAR is.

I used to be just like you... I couldn't understand WHY someone would WANT to dodge their duty to serve their country. But now I look at them and realize "THEY were the intelligent ones"<br />They realized that war is madness and they aren't started or fought by sane people. One only has to look at the saber rattling going on around the wold o realize this. I mean everyone just STEP back! The people that think for themselves instead of buying the **** that their governments spoon feed them are the real men and women.

They realized that Vietnam had NOTHING to do with them... and that the War was started for political reasons BY politicians (who of course never see the shooting). They realized that the politician's kids got desk jobs or stayed at university while everyone else had their entire lives destroyed fighting in that green hell. They realized that defending a dictatorship (make no mistake South Vietnam WAS a military dictatorship - just a capitalist one) was not worth throwing away 58,000 American lives. An entire generation of youth. Don't even get me started on agent Orange.. or Gulf War syndrome. Or how about my country's treatment of our Merchant Marines (took them 50 years to get government compensation because they weren't officially in the military) Yes their country sure treated THEM well for their sacrifices. What a farce.

War is almost never about people... it's about Politicians serving their own personal/political agendas. It's SO easy to send young men off to die in foreign lands for shadow causes when you yourself aren't going. The trick of course is to whip the people into such a frenzie that you can lead them by the nose right down the garden path...

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident was America's carrot during Vietnam.

Upholding the "freedom" of Kuwait was used during the Gulf War. (too bad Kuwait is led by a monarchy and doesn't hold democratic elections)

I'm seeing it happen all over again. Sure this "carrot" more or less fell into George Bush's lap - but it still pretty much gives him carte blanche to do whatever he chooses. (Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying America DID this to themselves.. or even that George Bush is HAPPY about this - he's after all a human being and I'm sure this is devastating to him) HOWEVER it does present a nice opportunity... he can go to war and probably have more public support than any American Presdent has ever had since the invention and widespread use of TV. Only when MORE American sons start coming home in body bags will the people realize their mistake - and by then it will be too late.

Well I say "never again". If my prime minister and his cronies are so eager to start a war then I say fine. Them and George Bush can go die in the Mountains of Afghanistan (I hope they ask the Russians for advice - THEY seemed to fare so well during 10 brutal years of warfare. Razing Afghan villages and distrubting "toy bombs" couldn't even help THEM win). Politicians that use people as political pawns can go to hell.

Many people that are so eager to jump into an armed conflict have never seen combat and have NO idea what war is like. None whatsoever. It all seems like fun and games until you're laying in a filthy ditch somewhere with your guts ripped out by shrapnel and you're screaming for your mother.. and you're bowels have let loose and you're laying in your own filth.

Once in high school we had some veterans come in and talk to us about their World War II experiences. Somebody asked them... "If war broke out right now and you were of age would you want to go?"

There were maybe two of the 4 that basically said NO. They would NEVER go to war again - even if they were of age. They said that they would rather be put in jail then see the hell they went through... and that if they could do world war II over again.. knowing what they know now... they would never ever have gotten involved. These men were not cowards - they were decorated veterans. However they had decided that the price was simply to high...

As for being scared? Yes I'm definitely scared. I'm scared that some ******* crazy Americans are going to drag me into a War.

(note: not all Ameicans are ******* crazies) <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

By the way... the above mentioned crazies in this forum have pushed my thinking further to the left than it has EVER been before.

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: RedWolf ]</p>

 

[gjts00]

Don't even compare this situation to Viet Nam. That's about as smart as comparing apples to oranges. And BTW, I have served my country & I still support an armed resolution to this situation. Your "the draft dodgers are the smart ones" take is nothing more than the lie that you tell yourself, so that you don't have to face the fact that you're a coward. Liberty comes at a high price (blood). I don't hear you complaining about the sacrifices made during WWII to give you the world you live in today. I find it repulsive that you have the nerve to overlook your responsibility to those who came before you. They need you now too. They're too old to fight. Aside from the fact that they already paid their due. Think about where we'd be today if our grandparents had given up! And I have a question about your "ploiticians make war to further personal agendas" angle...What bar room did you hear that in??? I could argue with you about this until I'm blue in the face, but I'm not going to.

BTW, I'm glad that you think I'm an "******* American". Because to identify with you is to wallow in cowardice.

 

[Flatlander Fox]

Go ahead and think to the left RedWolf, but I know (from earlier discussions I have read) that you remember all too well who has earned that right for you.

As for war, I have no intention on laying my life down for anyone. The enemies of the free world are going to be doing that for me.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Just thought I'd share a few headlines from danish newspapers.

"DENMARK AT WAR"<br />(headline wednesday, front page)

"DANISH WAR AGAINST TERROR"<br />(thursday)

"DANISH MONEY FUNDED TERRORISTS"<br />(saturday)

Seems my country is both harbouring terrorists, as well as fighting them.

I think these headlines, and the NATO declaration pretty much shows how serious implications this tragedy has for Europe, as well as the US. Adds a little perspective to all the nationalist BS. The attack is considered an attack on the alliance, and this is pretty much what it felt like, too.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

from Morten Blaabjerg

"DENMARK AT WAR"<br />(headline wednesday, front page)

"DANISH WAR AGAINST TERROR"<br />(thursday)

"DANISH MONEY FUNDED TERRORISTS"<br />(saturday)

Seems my country is both harbouring terrorists, as well as fighting them.<br /><hr></blockquote> <br /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[LOL]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[LOL]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[LOL]" />

<br />

I think these headlines, and the NATO declaration pretty much shows how serious implications this tragedy has for Europe, as well as the US. Adds a little perspective to all the nationalist BS. The attack is considered an attack on the alliance, and this is pretty much what it felt like, too. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah ,i saw to pretty fast to.And not only an attack on the alliances ,but the "civilized" world.

I guess with these terrorists it's not about how much they strike ,but where.<br />There are a lot of people pack on eachother in the WTC (sorry ,were)<br />And targetting the White House ,they could kill a important political figure.<br />I mean ,what if such a disaster happen's at a nations summit?

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by RedWolf:<br /><strong><br />G-man:

The reason they haven't told YOU to shut up is because you haven't critisized their opinions yet. Try it and see what happens. (there are a few of us that can attest to this)

As for Canada being a democracy... We are only a democracy every 4 years. The rest of the time we are forced to follow whatever goon happens to be in office at the time (who usually convinced the masses to vote for him by promising tax cuts that never materialized)

Besides... the majority of my people have lost their minds right along with the Americans. THAT is not my problem... I personally should not be dragged into a war (any war) simply because everyone else has gone INSANE.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So, you admit they criticise you because of your opinions.<br />And as you know, in a democracy that majority of people that has "lost their minds" are the ones making a decision. And as a citizen of that country you have to follow that decision. If anyone would do what he wants it would be called "anarchy" not "democracy". How would you feel if your prime minister would decide not to go into war but soldiers will decide that "this is not my opinion" and since "everyone else has gone INSANE" and the PM is a "goon" that "happens to be in office at the time", and these soldiers will go and fight in the name of Canada?<br />How will you feel if someone will lower taxes, but since the pplice wouln't agree with it you'll still have to pay the higher taxes?<br />In a democracy people has to respect the decision of the majority. Maybe tomorow I'll decide that I don't like laws against murder, and go kill someone? <img src="graemlins/snipersmilie.gif" border="0" alt="[Sniper]" />

 

[Ashoka]

Besides... the majority of my people have lost their minds right along with the Americans. THAT is not my problem... I personally should not be dragged into a war (any war) simply because everyone else has gone INSANE. <hr></blockquote>

And, as I tactfully tried to point out earlier, perhaps it is NOT 'everyone else' who is insane.

This kind of talk almost sounds like "All you paranoids are conspiring to get me!!"

RedWolf - if you're a pacifist, realize that even some pacisists are supporting action. I applaud your strength of convicition, but you degrade it by characterizing everyone who disagrees as 'insane'. The only insane ones are the people who did this in the first place - the rest of us are trying to cope as best we can.

Ashoka

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by G-Man:<br /><strong><br />And as a citizen of that country you have to follow that decision. If anyone would do what he wants it would be called "anarchy" not "democracy". How would you feel if your prime minister would decide not to go into war but soldiers will decide that "this is not my opinion" and since "everyone else has gone INSANE" and the PM is a "goon" that "happens to be in office at the time", and these soldiers will go and fight in the name of Canada?<br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

See thats where your wrong. People in a free society have the moral OBLIGTION to say "NO... I am not doing that". What the world needs now is more thinkers and less followers.

Look at Nazi Germany (an extreme case I know so don't flame me please). The halocaust happened not because all Germans were bad... but because to many GOOD Germans said nothing. They got caught up in the rhetoric and sabre rattling... an everybody followed right along... Doing what they were told - just because THEY said it was right.

If you disagree with your government then stand up and be heard. THATS what makes us free.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by gjts00:<br /><strong>Don't even compare this situation to Viet Nam. That's about as smart as comparing apples to oranges. And BTW, I have served my country & I still support an armed resolution to this situation. Your "the draft dodgers are the smart ones" take is nothing more than the lie that you tell yourself, so that you don't have to face the fact that you're a coward. Liberty comes at a high price (blood). I don't hear you complaining about the sacrifices made during WWII to give you the world you live in today. I find it repulsive that you have the nerve to overlook your responsibility to those who came before you. They need you now too. They're too old

And I have a question about your "ploiticians make war to further personal agendas" angle...What bar room did you hear that in??? I could argue with you about this until I'm blue in the face, but I'm not going to. <br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

I didn't compare this situation to Vietnam. I compared it to every war that has ever come before it. where politicians make the decicions and the country's youth march off to their death.<br />Vietnam just happened to be the most senseless of the bunch.

As for the political agenda speech.. If you HONESTLY believe that wars are ever fought FOR people... then you are even more brainwashed than I thought. America has never gotten involved in armed conflict because it CARED about the people it was defending (whetheer it be the Jews, the South Vietnamese or Koreans, or most recently the Kuwaitis) This isn't just an American trait - I'm not attacking YOUR country here - it's a common trait of ALL governments. We're just as guilty.

My generation is more aware of the world around us and better educated then ever before. We question that which our "elected" leaders do and have the backbone to think for ourselves.

The common opinion among my peer groups is that we are not willing to go to war over a terrorist attack. If that makes us a coward then so be it.

 

[G-Man]

In the case of nazi Germany, most Germans were bad, as the nazi party got to power by democratic elections.<br />About freedom - yes, you are free, but you live in a society. And you have to obey all laws of this society. Just like you have to pay taxes, stop on red lights and wear clothes. Whatever the goverment decides, and therefore the majority of the people decides, is what the entire country does.<br />Freedom is important, but it can't be unlimited. As I said, unlimited freedom is Anarchy.

 

[CornMaster]

I just like to say:

RedWolf, I hear you loud and clear. I actually agree with you. If the US was a true Democracy (And it's not, BTW. It's a Republic) we would be voting right now and deciding what action to take....as a nation. But instead the gov't has their agenda and we (who really have no say in the matter) are arguing amongst ourself!!

If Canada decided to send in soldiers, I won't agree with it, and I wouldn't go.

 

[gjts00]

You too Corn?!?!? Damn, I thought better of you. BTW you are wrong, the US IS a democracy & it's functioning just the way it should. The people don't vote on every issue, that's why we have the Senate & Congress. You know, those people elected by the people for the purpose of making decisions for the people...That's the way a democracy is set up to run & that's exactly what's going on. For anyone to suggest that this situation was perpetrated by the US government or is being orchestrated to accomodate some political agenda is nothing short of total bullsh1t! And BTW Corn, you WERE given a say in the matter...It was election day. And if you didn't vote, don't *****. I voted for John McCain (a former POW, so shut up about the politicians never getting their hands dirty) & based on what I seen him say this week, that's the BEST vote I've ever cast! The Senate & Congress are going to vote right in line with what the majority of the American people want. If that's not a democracy, such a thing doesn't exist.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

The leagal definition of "democracy" vs the common Eglish usage of "democracy" debate is quote old by now, and very boring.

 

[SunTzu]

Yeah Mccain would've made a good president. But like i said before, especially in this situation, if your not an american, a dedicated american, not someone who's living in america and hates us <img src="graemlins/punch.gif" border="0" alt="[Punch]" /> you don't need to tell us what to do and ***** at us, cause your country wasn't attacked. Your country being Canada. more than 5,000 of your fellow countrymen and women aren't dead. So i intend to tell you to shut the hell up on this matter. <img src="graemlins/yeah.gif" border="0" alt="[Yeah]" />

 

[SunTzu]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola:<br /><strong>The leagal definition of "democracy" vs the common Eglish usage of "democracy" debate is quote old by now, and very boring.</strong><hr></blockquote><br />'quote old by now'? Someone get lefty back his spellchecker <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by gjts00:<br /><strong>You too Corn?!?!? Damn, I thought better of you. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh...I don't agree with you so now I'm not as good. I like where this is going. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

BTW you are wrong, the US IS a democracy & it's functioning just the way it should. The people don't vote on every issue, that's why we have the Senate & Congress. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah....IT'S CALLED A REPUBLIC!!! Democracy means that the people vote and decide what the country does. When we elect the people to do it for us it's not a true democracy anymore. Yes...they were democratically elected through a proper democratic process, but as soon as they make a decission without a vote, it becomes a Republic. I'm not saying that it is bad....I'm just saying that's how it is!

For anyone to suggest that this situation was perpetrated by the US government or is being orchestrated to accomodate some political agenda is nothing short of total bullsh1t!<hr></blockquote>

Now I never said that...so I hope that comment is directed elsewhere (or to the general public).

And BTW Corn, you WERE given a say in the matter...It was election day. And if you didn't vote, don't *****.<hr></blockquote>

Canadians can't vote in American Elections. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

I voted for John McCain (a former POW, so shut up about the politicians never getting their hands dirty) & based on what I seen him say this week, that's the BEST vote I've ever cast! <hr></blockquote>

I never commented on that either....

The Senate & Congress are going to vote right in line with what the majority of the American people want.<hr></blockquote>

That's impossible to say without a vote!!!

If that's not a democracy, such a thing doesn't exist.<hr></blockquote>

Your right....no true democracy does exist. I'm not putting down the American Gov't, but the people who say democracy this and democracy that are just getting to me...that's all.

Canada is actually a Constutional Monarchy, running off the federal party system. We elect local reps and whichever party has the most local reps elected, they become the leading party in the House. The leader of the leading party becomes Primer or Prime Minister. The Prime Minister can actually LOSE in their riding and still become PM. Although we can't directly vote for our PM we indirectly do. (That's just an aside....and FYI if you will)

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

"democracy this & democracy that " <br />Democracy is correct acceptable common ussage for any nation with which has real election, and is included as a definition in many English language dictionaries. In pershaps a few more dictionaries and many textbooks is more technical definiton, used in political science discussions and other academic setting, and by boring *******s who want to have a useless fallacious "apples vs oranges" arguement on internet forums about the semantics of two different, valid definitions of the same word.

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola:<br /><strong>"democracy this & democracy that " <br />Democracy is correct acceptable common ussage for any nation with which has real election, and is included as a definition in many English language dictionaries. In pershaps a few more dictionaries and many textbooks is more technical definiton, used in political science discussions and other academic setting, and by boring *******s who want to have a useless fallacious "apples vs oranges" arguement on internet forums about the semantics of two different, valid definitions of the same word.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Lefty.....if we want to debate the definition of Democracy then we can until the cows come home. You have already made that point once....no need to make it again. I realize your tried of it but some people don't understand, and that's all I'm trying to clear up.

Plus you don't have to read it if you don't want to. <img src="icon12.gif" border="0">

 

[Flatlander Fox]

How many of the soldiers in any of the conflicts of history wanted to be there???

How many wanted to fight and kill other young men??

Probably not very many... They merely went to do what they had to do.

So when we turn the other cheek, that just opens us up for another slap.

You cannot run from conflict forever, you have to make a stand sometime.

I respect your feelings, but I have a hard time condoning the "Someone else will cover down for me" opinion that some people have.

What happens when everybody has that feeling??? <img src="icon9.gif" border="0">