(Northern) Europeans are Savages

[Dolemitetornado]

I just thought I'd toss out and idea, namely that temperate/Northern Europeans are very late in contributing to "civilization." Surely Rome and Greece were quite important, but during this time, Northern Europe was a backwater. In fact, if I understand correctly, the idea of "Europe" didn't even really exist as a cultural communtiy, only as a geographical area. The important distinction wasn't between Europe and Asia, but between the Roman empire and the barbarian world. The temperate Europeans helped to destroy Roman civilization, then during the dark/middle ages they were the most backward part of Eurasia. Almost all of the aspects of their civilization came from the east and south, roman and greek writing and philosophy, christian religion, etc. It's only with the renissance and modernity that Northern European peoples have contriubted anything to world civilization, which admittedly has been huge. I find that many European peoples tend to look at their history and see greece and Rome, but really, the majority of us were savages from the forest until quite recently. Germans and Russians, Brits and Dutch were NOT contributing to the establishment of greco-roman culture. We were no more part of Roman civilization than Tibet had an important part in the cultural development of China. Do peoples who were not part of meditteranean civilization unconsciously see the greco-romans as ancestors to avoid the uncomfortable fact that for most of our history we were not "civilized" peoples?

 

[North King]

Savages? Who destroyed the forest to make way for their own cities? Who slaughtered animals by the thousands in government sanctioned rituals to make sure the gods favored them? Who slaughtered thousands upon thousands for the sole sake of Empire?

Both Roman and barbarian were savage in their own ways, as were any culture on Earth.

 

[blindside]

I don't think they're trying to deny that they were behind the greco-romans in technology and culture (subjective). Many have tried to live up to the Romans especially; I see nothing wrong in that.

I do agree wiht your first point that distinctions weren't made between Europe and Asia, rather the relatively civilized Mediterrenean/Middle East and the surrounding "barbaric" lands.

 

[Reno]

The title should be "they were savages", and it really just depends how you interprid the term "savage".

 

[Vostos]

BTW, Tibet had quite a bit of influence on Chinese culture

 

[Reno]

BTW, Tibet had quite a bit of influence on Chinese culture

He is talking about Europe being a backwater place during Roman times. He just tossed out a bad comparison.

 

[Plotinus]

The temperate Europeans helped to destroy Roman civilization, then during the dark/middle ages they were the most backward part of Eurasia.

What, so you think that the Carolingian empire was more backward than Italian Lombardy? Or thirteenth-century Paris was more backward than contemporary Constantinople? Was Gregory Palamas a greater thinker than Thomas Aquinas? Were Duns Scotus and Roger Bacon unthinking barbarians? Stop this slandering of the Middle Ages as "backward" - they weren't!

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I completely agree with the point many civilizations are widely underestimated. Khmer, Moghul, Siam especially.
I completely disagree with W/N Europe being below 'average' on culture from the times of Charlemagne. Compare the Chapelle of Aix-la-Chapelle, or the Cathedrals of Speyer (Romanic) or Chartres (Gothic) with contempary buildings from other cultures - they are by no means inferior to Byzantine or Arabic or Indian architecture.
Compare even the Nordic artisans, and you'll see they were far from being savages.
There is one issue the European Civs seriously couldn't compete with India, China, the Islamic World: Administration.
But not even in Science they were much backwards; metallurgy, architecture/construction, chemistry. Only two chemical elements were discovered during the 'Middle Ages' - Zinc by the Arabs, and Phosphor by a German Alchemist.

Of course, the Frankish Crusaders seem barbaric compared to the Abbassids; but if you compare Venice to Antiaoch, you won't find that much difference.

The European Middle Age was no Dark Age; the Dark Age came before, leaving Europe with a grossly decimated population, and hardly any city above 10000 inhabitants.

 

[Plotinus]

It might also be pointed out that if the Christians were barbaric for launching the Crusades, then the Muslims were equally barbaric for sweeping across North Africa and into Spain in the first place!

 

[Provolution]

What matters now, is that the Northern European culture destroyed the Vaticans blockade of science, and lead way in the industrial revolution and information revolution and will surely also lead the way to outer space. I am sorry to say, of all Mediterranean countries only Italy, in particular the North, can hold its own.

 

[yaroslav]

What matters now, is that the Northern European culture destroyed the Vaticans blockade of science, and lead way in the industrial revolution and information revolution and will surely also lead the way to outer space. I am sorry to say, of all Mediterranean countries only Italy, in particular the North, can hold its own.

Can hold its now? What does it mean? Sound pretty anti-south Europe for my taste.

 

[storealex]

Yes we were savages, and we're proud of it!

Sure we didn't exactly build any Colloseums or Aquaducts. But we were pretty damn cool! Viking ships crossed the sea in cold wind and rain to discover America. Vikings collonised Greenland and Iceland, was feared by all, founded new trade routes, revolutionised shipbuilding and fungus-eating, we're excellent craftsmen, made woodcarvings equal to to best we can make today, had manly beards, served as the Emperors bodyguards in Constantinoble etc.

In short: While the south were sissies, we were men!

 

[Reno]

Yes we were savages, and we're proud of it!

Sure we didn't exactly build any Colloseums or Aquaducts. But we were pretty damn cool! Viking ships crossed the sea in cold wind and rain to discover America. Vikings collonised Greenland and Iceland, was feared by all, founded new trade routes, revolutionised shipbuilding and fungus-eating, we're excellent craftsmen, made woodcarvings equal to to best we can make today, had manly beards, served as the Emperors bodyguards in Constantinoble etc.

In short: While the south were sissies, we were men!

I agree with you 100%!

 

[Evie]

Of course, if you use your own definition of what "to be a man" is, you'll always be the one who winds up being a man, so it's entirely meaningless.

 

[Plotinus]

I'm also not entirely sure what is meant by "the Vatican's blockade of science". Ever heard of the Jesuits?

 

[Squonk]

I agree with Plotinus' points.
I love this guy.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Viking ships crossed the sea in cold wind and rain to discover America.

And nobody cares about it. If at least you would have had balls to stay there...

 

[privatehudson]

Maybe they discovered it, figured out what it would be like in the future and hushed it up again

 

[Reno]

Maybe they discovered it,

No doubt about it, Vikings discoverd the Americas, and not some italian phoney. Well he found it too, but it had being dicoverd already.

 

[privatehudson]

No doubt about it, Vikings discoverd the Americas, and not some italian phoney. Well he found it too, but it had being dicoverd already.

I was offering a reason why they didn't stay, not questioning that fact