[NFP] November Update Analysis

[iammaxhailme]

I haven't been able to get more than 7 or 8 gold per favor. Average is probably 4 and the mode seems to be 2.

7 or 8 total, or 7 or 8 per turn? I can often trade at a ~slight~ loss vs gpt, like maybe 30 favor for 25 gpt. Works better on civs that like you + don't have much favor of their own.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But I understand people who don't like this and would rather not have it at all in Civ, optional or not (it does consume resources and time after all).

It's the people who keep making the "make Civ great again" argument, wishing back for a past that has never existed, that are starting to get repetitive. They just need to argue "I would rather Civ games had no fantasy at all" and that would be fine.

Yeah I understand as well.
That being said this Heroes and Legends has been my favorite game mode, despite being the most fantasy based, with Secret Societies being second.
I'd like the rest at least to be historical though personally as we've had just the right amount of fantastical stuff.

 

[lotrmith]

7 or 8 total, or 7 or 8 per turn? I can often trade at a ~slight~ loss vs gpt, like maybe 30 favor for 25 gpt. Works better on civs that like you + don't have much favor of their own.

Total. Lump gold per favor for me has maxed at 8 gold for 1 favor.

 

[ehecatzin]

Yeah I understand as well.
That being said this Heroes and Legends has been my favorite game mode, despite being the most fantasy based, with Secret Societies being second.
I'd like the rest at least to be historical though personally as we've had just the right amount of fantastical stuff.

I think I like Heroes and Legends way more because the heroes are at least grounded in specific culture's mythos as oposed to the pop culture mesh we got with Secret societies, (if anything I'd love to see a bigger rotating pool of heroes) if Secret societies had the same "flavour" as the heroes do I would find them palatable...heck, the Vampires could as easily have been a crusader/knights of the round table and function pretty much the same.

Or the Old gods being about Pagan cults, but no...Cuhtuluh and Vampires.... and yes I'm one of those people still salty about it, because mechanically I think both modes are very interesting, I just think the fantasy elements can be at least be given a historical or cultural flavour.

 

[UWHabs]

I think I like Heroes and Legends way more because the heroes are at least grounded in specific culture's mythos as oposed to the pop culture mesh we got with Secret societies, (if anything I'd love to see a bigger rotating pool of heroes) if Secret societies had the same "flavour" as the heroes do I would find them palatable...heck, the Vampires could as easily have been a crusader/knights of the round table and function pretty much the same.

Or the Old gods being about Pagan cults, but no...Cuhtuluh and Vampires.... and yes I'm one of those people still salty about it, because mechanically I think both modes are very interesting, I just think the fantasy elements can be at least be given a historical or cultural flavour.

I haven't played through much on the heroes so far because I wanted to focus more on Babylon my first game, but both them and the societies definitely shift the core game a lot. In more ways than not, I think they basically are like mod elements - like if they wanted to create a cyberpunk version of civ without reskinning the whole game, you could find a game mode to do something like that. They certainly shift the balance of power way overboard, and I don't think are at all meant to be balanced. Same with apocalypse mode, which I never even made it through one game with. Not for me, so I won't bother.

Babylon itself, I do think they are quite unbalanced playing through them. I do love how they create such a different style to try to play them, but it's pretty insane sometimes when your neighbours are barely unlocking cuirassiers and you can research GDRs. And worst of all I seem to keep getting hit with units obsoleting on me. I was starting to build my 3 privateers to unlock submarines, when suddenly I can no longer build them because presumably I researched some random information era tech or something like that. I would certainly like to see them toned down a little so that you can't jump around so crazily on the tech tree, but would hate to take away that uniqueness that they have.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think I like Heroes and Legends way more because the heroes are at least grounded in specific culture's mythos as oposed to the pop culture mesh we got with Secret societies, (if anything I'd love to see a bigger rotating pool of heroes) if Secret societies had the same "flavour" as the heroes do I would find them palatable...heck, the Vampires could as easily have been a crusader/knights of the round table and function pretty much the same.

Well we got the crusader/knights of the round table with King Arthur.

Or the Old gods being about Pagan cults, but no...Cuhtuluh and Vampires.... and yes I'm one of those people still salty about it, because mechanically I think both modes are very interesting, I just think the fantasy elements can be at least be given a historical or cultural flavour.

Not knowing much about Cthulhu lore to begin with I just picture them as Pagan cultists in game.
As for the vampires it seems that they take inspiration from Central/Eastern Europe and the names given to the units evoke real historical figures that were considered "vampires" such as Countess Elizabeth Bathory and Vlad Tepes. At least that's my justification for why they seem more historical than the Heroes and Legends mode.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Or the Old gods being about Pagan cults, but no...Cuhtuluh and Vampires.... and yes I'm one of those people still salty about it, because mechanically I think both modes are very interesting, I just think the fantasy elements can be at least be given a historical or cultural flavour.

May I suggest a Secret Society akin to the real-life Hashashin? Would that interest you more than the vampires?

Not knowing much about Cthulhu lore to begin with I just picture them as Pagan cultists in game.

I didn't even think of them as Cthuluists, haha.

 

[pokiehl]

To each his or her own, but I am personally quite satisfied with the mythical bent of content in the NFP. The Bermuda Triangle, the Cthulhu cultists, the heroes, everything.

It's just exciting and funny when Simon Bolivar declares war on you and suddenly your city is surrounded by a bunch of Archers, a Vampire, and Hercules.

I'm glad the devs were able to use the Mode system as a way to exercise their creativity and provide us these experiences.

As an aside, I am inclined to think that this opinion is actually that of the majority...for instance, I read some posts here in the Secret Societies threads, stating that mods will immediately appear to "historicize" the Secret Societies to be more palatable...and yet that hasn't happened to any appreciable degree (my search of the Workshop identified only one mod that did that with nearly 0 subscribers).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I didn't even think of them as Cthuluists, haha.

Considering all of their relics they produce are from the Cthulhu lore that's pretty much what they are based on. The icon with a bunch of tentacles for them also kind of gives it away.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

To each his or her own, but I am personally quite satisfied with the mythical bent of content in the NFP. The Bermuda Triangle, the Cthulhu cultists, the heroes, everything.

It's just exciting and funny when Simon Bolivar declares war on you and suddenly your city is surrounded by a bunch of Archers, a Vampire, and Hercules.

I'm glad the devs were able to use the Mode system as a way to exercise their creativity and provide us these experiences.

As an aside, I am inclined to think that this opinion is actually that of the majority...for instance, I read some posts here in the Secret Societies threads, stating that mods will immediately appear to "historicize" the Secret Societies to be more palatable...and yet that hasn't happened to any appreciable degree (my search of the Workshop identified only one mod that did that with nearly 0 subscribers).

Might I suggest a Hashashin like society?

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I just think the fantasy elements can be at least be given a historical or cultural flavour.

Sure. There's an easy link:
Hermetic - > Alchemists
Owls - > Illuminati
Sanguine - > Assassins / Hashashin (as many have mentioned)
Voidsingers - > Any of the number of millenarian movements (the late 19th C Mahdists, the Ghost Dance, many, many medieval Christian groups, the "left-hand" tantric groups)

Considering all of their relics they produce are from the Cthulhu lore that's pretty much what they are based on. The icon with a bunch of tentacles for them also kind of gives it away.

I used Lovecraft references for about 1/4 of the names. Another 1/4 are references to various monstrous beings in world religions (e.g. the Kuman Thong from Thai myth; Akkorokamui from Ainu myth). Another 1/2 are my own inventions (e.g. "The Loveless Ones, the Chorus of the Drowned").

 

[Builderphile]

"If you let your son listen to rock and roll, how long until he becomes a Satan worshiping murderer?"

Not sure if serious, but the answer is 7 years if he's listening to Black Sabbath; 8 if he's listening to Pink Floyd.

 

[iammaxhailme]

To each his or her own, but I am personally quite satisfied with the mythical bent of content in the NFP. The Bermuda Triangle, the Cthulhu cultists, the heroes, everything.

It's just exciting and funny when Simon Bolivar declares war on you and suddenly your city is surrounded by a bunch of Archers, a Vampire, and Hercules.

I'm glad the devs were able to use the Mode system as a way to exercise their creativity and provide us these experiences.

As an aside, I am inclined to think that this opinion is actually that of the majority...for instance, I read some posts here in the Secret Societies threads, stating that mods will immediately appear to "historicize" the Secret Societies to be more palatable...and yet that hasn't happened to any appreciable degree (my search of the Workshop identified only one mod that did that with nearly 0 subscribers).

I agree, I don't mind the fantasy elements, since it's pretty light overall (and optional). I'm a bit more concerned about power creep and lack of balance, though.

 

[God of Kings]

@Andrew Johnson [FXS]

What are the names of the relics each hero drops, such as Hippolya's Girdle and Hercules' Club?

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

I haven't played through much on the heroes so far because I wanted to focus more on Babylon my first game, but both them and the societies definitely shift the core game a lot. In more ways than not, I think they basically are like mod elements - like if they wanted to create a cyberpunk version of civ without reskinning the whole game, you could find a game mode to do something like that. They certainly shift the balance of power way overboard, and I don't think are at all meant to be balanced. Same with apocalypse mode, which I never even made it through one game with. Not for me, so I won't bother.

Babylon itself, I do think they are quite unbalanced playing through them. I do love how they create such a different style to try to play them, but it's pretty insane sometimes when your neighbours are barely unlocking cuirassiers and you can research GDRs. And worst of all I seem to keep getting hit with units obsoleting on me. I was starting to build my 3 privateers to unlock submarines, when suddenly I can no longer build them because presumably I researched some random information era tech or something like that. I would certainly like to see them toned down a little so that you can't jump around so crazily on the tech tree, but would hate to take away that uniqueness that they have.

I had the same issue. I was going to build my third privateer then, without taking care, I discovered the technology for submarines. Suddenly, I wasn't able to build my privateers and get my Eurekas.
At first, I was salty. But then I laughed: games as Babylon are so random and chaotic that sometimes you're just "hey, when did I unlocked the eureka for this? I wasn't paying attention. Frack, now I'm locked..."

Or the Old gods being about Pagan cults, but no...Cuhtuluh and Vampires.... and yes I'm one of those people still salty about it, because mechanically I think both modes are very interesting, I just think the fantasy elements can be at least be given a historical or cultural flavour.

Not knowing much about Cthulhu lore to begin with I just picture them as Pagan cultists in game.
As for the vampires it seems that they take inspiration from Central/Eastern Europe and the names given to the units evoke real historical figures that were considered "vampires" such as Countess Elizabeth Bathory and Vlad Tepes. At least that's my justification for why they seem more historical than the Heroes and Legends mode.

Considering all of their relics they produce are from the Cthulhu lore that's pretty much what they are based on. The icon with a bunch of tentacles for them also kind of gives it away.

Sincerely, I know that Voidsingers are based on Lovecraftian mythos only because of the name of some relics. For the rest... Are you seriously complaining about some random guys worshipping Nyarlathotep and playing with the sanity of your citizens (something that could really and realistically happen) while you can recruit Imhotep during the Middle-Ages to help you build the Hanging Gardens in the Aztec city of Novgorod... I mean, the ahistoricity is stronger in one of those scenarios, and the cultists aren't it.

Also, the problem with tying secret societies with actual real societies (like Pagan Cults instead of Voidsingers, Freemasons insted of Owls of Minerva...) is that it's too real. I mean, a lot and an incresingly number of people consider themselves neo-pagans, so representing them as cultist driving mad populations to the point of rebellion can be seen as insensitive; and Freemasons are a real, quite influential, group of people, and representing them as a secret society might not be well-seen.
And the most compelling argument that has already been discussed: if they decide to make actual "secret societies" (like Templars, Hashashins, Illuminati, Freemasons...) in the game instead of their fantasy counterpart, and you'd have the legions of conspiracy theorists that would come and take this to reenforce their lunacies. I'm sorry but we have already crazy conspiracists without having Firaxis giving them fuel for their fantasies.

Also, one big, gigantic advantage I feel with the actual secret societies is kind of the "international" feel they have. Except for the Owls of Minerva (which name is definitely mediterranean) and the style of Vampire Castles, every secret society feel international enough to justify any civilization to meet and join them. Bloodsucking monster existed in pretty much every mythology, lunatics worshipping chaos happened in all cultures, influential wealthy elites had their share of power in any society, and mystical scholars flourished all around the globe. With the secret societies being kind of "generic" enough, we feel they're truly fitted for any civilization. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Also, the problem with tying secret societies with actual real societies (like Pagan Cults instead of Voidsingers, Freemasons insted of Owls of Minerva...) is that it's too real. I mean, a lot and an incresingly number of people consider themselves neo-pagans, so representing them as cultist driving mad populations to the point of rebellion can be seen as insensitive; and Freemasons are a real, quite influential, group of people, and representing them as a secret society might not be well-seen.
And the most compelling argument that has already been discussed: if they decide to make actual "secret societies" (like Templars, Hashashins, Illuminati, Freemasons...) in the game instead of their fantasy counterpart, and you'd have the legions of conspiracy theorists that would come and take this to reenforce their lunacies. I'm sorry but we have already crazy conspiracists without having Firaxis giving them fuel for their fantasies.

Also, one big, gigantic advantage I feel with the actual secret societies is kind of the "international" feel they have. Except for the Owls of Minerva (which name is definitely mediterranean) and the style of Vampire Castles, every secret society feel international enough to justify any civilization to meet and join them. Bloodsucking monster existed in pretty much every mythology, lunatics worshipping chaos happened in all cultures, influential wealthy elites had their share of power in any society, and mystical scholars flourished all around the globe. With the secret societies being kind of "generic" enough, we feel they're truly fitted for any civilization. But that's just my opinion.

Ah, yes. No need for any more conspiracy theorists going around saying... You know what, maybe I should refrain from saying anything. Shut up, William! Don't say anything dumb or insensitive about modern-day conspiracy theorists!

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

@Andrew Johnson [FXS]

What are the names of the relics each hero drops, such as Hippolya's Girdle and Hercules' Club?

This sounds like something that's more fun to find out for yourself!! (Although if you know the myths, you can probably figure it out.)

Although, if you're a spoiler-y kind of person, here is a website.

 

[Pietato]

How long before that become "You can play without any expansion", and after that "You can play some historical game, not civ"

Never. Stop with the slippery slope BS.

7 or 8 total, or 7 or 8 per turn? I can often trade at a ~slight~ loss vs gpt, like maybe 30 favor for 25 gpt. Works better on civs that like you + don't have much favor of their own.

There is no way you get this now. Even at the height of favour selling 6gpt per 10 was pretty much the pinnacle.

 

[sonicmyst]

Now that there are so many modes available, I tried playing a game with ALL of them selected.

What a mess. It felt like there are so many things going on and yet it lacks something impactful. If one mode is a game mechanic on steroids, selecting all modes is like an overdose.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Sincerely, I know that Voidsingers are based on Lovecraftian mythos only because of the name of some relics. For the rest... Are you seriously complaining about some random guys worshipping Nyarlathotep and playing with the sanity of your citizens (something that could really and realistically happen) while you can recruit Imhotep during the Middle-Ages to help you build the Hanging Gardens in the Aztec city of Novgorod... I mean, the ahistoricity is stronger in one of those scenarios, and the cultists aren't it.

Also, the problem with tying secret societies with actual real societies (like Pagan Cults instead of Voidsingers, Freemasons insted of Owls of Minerva...) is that it's too real. I mean, a lot and an incresingly number of people consider themselves neo-pagans, so representing them as cultist driving mad populations to the point of rebellion can be seen as insensitive; and Freemasons are a real, quite influential, group of people, and representing them as a secret society might not be well-seen.
And the most compelling argument that has already been discussed: if they decide to make actual "secret societies" (like Templars, Hashashins, Illuminati, Freemasons...) in the game instead of their fantasy counterpart, and you'd have the legions of conspiracy theorists that would come and take this to reenforce their lunacies. I'm sorry but we have already crazy conspiracists without having Firaxis giving them fuel for their fantasies.

Since you referenced me I for one am not complaining about the voidsingers in game at all.

Like I said earlier I virtually no nothing about the Cthulu mythos so my mind went straight for the first thing that it seemed similar to real life which is the old pagan religions. Having the name for the unique monument "old god obelisk" helped out but even if that's how I would describe them, I like the name Voidsingers for them in game.

Now I want to try an Ethiopia game with Secret Societies (and pick Voidsingers) and Heroes and Legends though.