Nox Noctis

I can see how Nox Noctis would be an excellent defence against conventional Stacks of Doom, but it is not a game breaking feature. If you simply must launch an invasion into NN territory, just follow one of the following tactics:

1) Rush Warhorses and build Ride of the Nine Kings, build a city cracking force of Knights and Chariots. Use Hawks to seek weak frontiers and raze. Bonus: you'll have a strong and mobile counter-attack force for defence.

2) Sorcery, Fireballs, and the Tower of Elements. With Spell Extension I and II your mages never need leave the safety of your borders: with Haste and Mobility I you can bring your mages to your border, summon your fireballs, and flee back to your secure interior. Spam Tigers or Skeletons, or build a few Mobility II horsemen to take and raze the city.

I could probably think of more, but am pressed for time.


1. hahahahahahahaha you gotta be kidding me! Rush Warhorses? that's your strategy? why not rush mitheral weapons? or future tech 4? the mere fact that you have to "Rush:lol:" a late game tech shows how overpowered ONE building is.

2. fireballs and tigers eh? I'm sure all those longbows and champions stationed in the city are shaking in their boots. it's not like they could...oh i don't know, FIREBALL YOU BACK!

Definition of Overpowered

countering:
archer spam: build catapults.

magic stacks: assassins.

warrior spam: shock upgrades.

Turtleing civ: pillage improvements.

assassins: assassins&guardsmen

tough stacks: heavy magic and assassins

NOX NOCTIS: ALL OF THE ABOVE, only double the forces you bring and prepare to have most of your forces dwindle the longer you stay in the territory.
-and it only cost him a great prophet.
 
1. hahahahahahahaha you gotta be kidding me! Rush Warhorses? that's your strategy? why not rush mitheral weapons? or future tech 4? the mere fact that you have to "Rush" a late game tech shows how overpowered ONE building is.

Its quite viable if you are at that stage of the game, perticularly if you are not in a rush to invade the player/AI with Nox Noctis. And why would you be in a rush, what offensive threat does the NN pose that would require you to rush to its destruction? At late game you should be pumping out enough science that rushing Warhorses is not as ludicrous as you make it seem.

Or is there a reason one could not simply opt to deal with Nox Noctis end-game?

2. fireballs and tigers eh? I'm sure all those longbows and champions stationed in the city are shaking in their boots. it's not like they could...oh i don't know, FIREBALL YOU BACK!

How could the fireball back when my Mages have retreated back from the border into a heavily defended city? The only advantage Nox Noctis gives your mages is they can sit the border instead of making the commute. Of course, if you have a stack of Mages sitting the border, I may be tempted to Maelstrom --> Culture Bomb --> Mop Up.

Note also that I specifically mentioned mobility. Mobility I Mages with Haste have a movement range of 3, and their Fireballs have a movement range of 4 assuming the Mages have Spell Extension I and II. Use that excellent mobility to attack the weakest link, rather than the heavily fortified border. Nox Noctis does nothing in helping you defend all of the potential targets. In fact, with the arrogance being displayed here, Nox Noctis would probably make you more vulnerable to non-conventional warfare (and more likely to do something foolish like leaving a stack of mages sitting at my border.

NOX NOCTIS: ALL OF THE ABOVE, only double the forces you bring and prepare to have most of your forces dwindle the longer you stay in the territory.
-and it only cost him a great prophet.

A Great Prophet and two techs. And as others have mentioned, there are easy counters:

- pillage roads
- Maelstrom
- Guardsman

As I mentioned, Nox Noctis can be rendered totally irrelevant by:

- attacking from within your borders with Mobility I/Spell Extension I & II Mages and mopping up with expendable summons. You'd be better off focusing on culture than invisibility if you want to counter a mobility/SE Mage spam
- building a blitz force of Horse Units (Warhorses tech optional, but the combination of Ride of the Nine Kings and Knights provides easily built and expendable Hero-quality units), with Hawks/Hunters to scout for weakly defended cities

* of the two method I mentioned, the Mages are by far more reliable, since an intelligent player would guard against the possibility of a commando blitz

Nox Noctis is definitely a strong and interesting feature, but not game breaking or overpowered. I'd much rather have the Nexus, which would allow me to teleport an Archer/Longbowman/etc from each of my cities once captured.
 
The AI built lots of horse archers. You cant have everything in the invisible field when you have stacks of horsearchers within range of your cities.

Futhermore, have them go in individually, and they will put up a good fight with assassins.

-and it only cost him a great prophet.

Only? Getting a great prophet is not easy, if you bee-lining for deception. I have had games where I never got to make Nox Noctis, because I could not get a GP or a GM. This is another oversight of people who play with traditional religions. Esus is different in so many ways.
 
The thing is that the Nox should only be usable while running Esus as a State civ, I think.
 
Decided to found CoE in my current game due to the attention NN was getting here. Fortune smiled upon me, and the religion was founded in my Order Holy City. I have both Shrines up, and will have the Bazaar of Mammon built shortly as well.

And yet, I am no more secure than I was before having built the NN. My adepts have yet to mature into mages, and should Charadon get bored of beating on Sabathiel and declare on me, NN will make not a whit of difference: I have too few troops to effectively counter, regardless of stealth.
 
Decided to found CoE in my current game due to the attention NN was getting here. Fortune smiled upon me, and the religion was founded in my Order Holy City. I have both Shrines up, and will have the Bazaar of Mammon built shortly as well.

And yet, I am no more secure than I was before having built the NN. My adepts have yet to mature into mages, and should Charadon get bored of beating on Sabathiel and declare on me, NN will make not a whit of difference: I have too few troops to effectively counter, regardless of stealth.

WOW! you made a point to research all the late-game religions while skipping over important and idiot-proof techs like sorcery or poisons(and didn't build an army) so you can get on the forums and tell us how you have NN but are SOL if someone attacks you? That's like telling the world that you made the sharpest, most poisonous, most deadly arrow ever but didn't make a bow.
"See everyone, i have the arrow! but its useless! therefore all arrows are useless!"

No one is telling you to only try and build Nox Noctis and you never have to worry again.

and if your mages are close enough and leveled up enough to maelstrom(granted you have air, death and body mana) the front lines and get away, you can bet they'll be the close enough for the NN owner to fireball and assassin you.(good luck mopping up with those :strength: 4 skellies)

oh and as far the great prophet goes let me give you guys a hint: Pagan Temple, wait 34 turns (normal speed). Rocket science, i know.

and i meant fireball your summons on the way to my city in my earlier post not fireball your mages.
 
oh and as far the great prophet goes let me give you guys a hint: Pagan Temple, wait 34 turns (normal speed). Rocket science, i know.

But don't build any wonders, or the wonder GP bonus will get you something else (big problem with the Great Library, and I mentioned it in another thread, I was actually happy when they bumped the GL from having two Great sages to one, exactly because of this problem.). And yes, I now build a GP ASAP.... but then I have to wait until I get the Esus holy city to use it. That means, until then, I could have been getting 9 beakers a turn, (great sage + elder council) instead, I get nothing (well, technically, +1 happy and +10% culture). That is a massive loss of opportunity. A great prophet sitting in a city, waiting to be used, usually for dozens of turns.

Furthermore, I usually go for nature or sorcery mana as my first type, fire comes later. You cant poison blade w/o nature mana.... and Knowledge of the Ether is also not on the deception path.

All I can say is I have played tons of games as Sidar... ALWAYS go for Esus, and have got my ass handed to me plenty of times by all sorts of civs: Ljosafar, Doviello, Hippus, all of them. The Mercurians have many times also been the end of my empire.

Nox Noctis is good to have, but to call it overpowered, I think just means you have not played enough civs with nox noctis.

And let me be clear, I don't play Sidar and Esus because I think Nox Noctis is uber powerful, I play it because I like ninjas and nightwatch. So I am sure you can uber-meta-combo with nox noctis and other wonders... but you really can with any wonder.
 
the funny thing is, i play as svarts almost exclusively so i know how you feel. i've tried to play other civs, but svarts to me just have the best synergy and fluff. it just makes me laugh when these guys get on here and say " well I'll do THIS strategy!" I think to myself, "hmm... my assassins with mov 4, double movement in woods, commando promo'd and poisoned will catch AND kill anything you bring close to my borders." and heaven forbid i haste them. maybe NN is just overpowered for certain civs, svaltafar being one of them. I mean really,... a civ covered in ancient forest that hinders your movement(if you're not those cursed good tree huggers((yes i mean you jonathan strange))) and helps me, mixed with mobility promo'd up recon units that are stronger than normal AND poisoned up(thanks to free nature mana). and then shroud everything in invisibility on top of that? just... just...nasty. Bring the mages! they can't run THAT far!

Am i the only that has absolutely no problem popping great prophets? yeah i get sages about half the time, but still, they come and go pretty regularly in my games. Great engineer on the other hand. Holy crap! anytime i do get one it's usually from researching engineering first, and then he's on nexus duty...no matter how far I am away from it!
 
I usually build a core empire if I have Nox Noctis and raze every enemy city surrounding it to have my cultural borders spread as far and wide as possible, with no roads around. Great counter for high mobility summons or units ;)
 
I usually build a core empire if I have Nox Noctis and raze every enemy city surrounding it to have my cultural borders spread as far and wide as possible, with no roads around. Great counter for high mobility summons or units ;)

haha nice. So it's a slow slosh getting anywhere. What's your favorite civ to play sir?
 
All I can say is I have played tons of games as Sidar... ALWAYS go for Esus, and have got my ass handed to me plenty of times by all sorts of civs: Ljosafar, Doviello, Hippus, all of them. The Mercurians have many times also been the end of my empire.


Just curious: how many Shades did you settle?

I often have problems playing Sidar because I end up settling too many of my best units and that kind of leaves me without an army. :mischief:

I do just fine when I remember that I need to settle my shades more sparingly so that I can keep the military strong enough to support my strategy and defend myself.
 
I've tried the sidar and calabim from time to time. they're fun. I guess I'm just a bad guy by nature...haha no pun intended.
 
the funny thing is, i play as svarts almost exclusively so i know how you feel. i've tried to play other civs, but svarts to me just have the best synergy and fluff. it just makes me laugh when these guys get on here and say " well I'll do THIS strategy!" I think to myself, "hmm... my assassins with mov 4, double movement in woods, commando promo'd and poisoned will catch AND kill anything you bring close to my borders." and heaven forbid i haste them. maybe NN is just overpowered for certain civs, svaltafar being one of them. I mean really,... a civ covered in ancient forest that hinders your movement(if you're not those cursed good tree huggers((yes i mean you jonathan strange))) and helps me, mixed with mobility promo'd up recon units that are stronger than normal AND poisoned up(thanks to free nature mana). and then shroud everything in invisibility on top of that? just... just...nasty. Bring the mages! they can't run THAT far!

Am i the only that has absolutely no problem popping great prophets? yeah i get sages about half the time, but still, they come and go pretty regularly in my games. Great engineer on the other hand. Holy crap! anytime i do get one it's usually from researching engineering first, and then he's on nexus duty...no matter how far I am away from it!

I agree that NN is probably strongest for the Svartalfar for the reasons you have stated. I would think it is weakest probably for civ's that need to conquer (Clan of Embers, for example.)

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
Just curious: how many Shades did you settle?

I often have problems playing Sidar because I end up settling too many of my best units and that kind of leaves me without an army. :mischief:

yeah, in my earlier games... mistakes were made. I don't shade so readily any more. And I always keep my non-animal hunting divided souls through the game. Eventually with marksmen they become powerful assassins.

The problem with not settling shades, is... eventually, the lose a 95% battle.
 
"See everyone, i have the arrow! but its useless! therefore all arrows are useless!"
Immortal difficulty with the Kuriotates, surrounded by an aggressive Clan and no room for expansion. Sometimes you have to forgo making a bow or arrow, and pick up a broomstick. The enemy hordes come when they will, and you'd better have something better than warriors when they do.

you made a point to research all the late-game religions while skipping over important and idiot-proof techs like sorcery or poisons

Order was the only religion I researched, due to the Social Order civic. All other religions besides the two I founded were gotten via trade.

Poison...is useless against stacks of Archers and Swordmen with bronze weapons. My Centaur Archers are much more useful than Assassins would be under the current conditions. If the Clan had bothered with catapults...well, I would have been screwed.

Sorcery...can wait until I have an adequate force of level 4+ Adepts. Would have had them by now if I could have researched KotE earlier and diverted production to Adepts..but doing so would have lead to a quick death under the Orcish hordes.

Besides, at that time, Deceptions was a 10 turn detour. Since I did have the Clan's invasion under control, I figured it would be worth it...and it was a decent lomng term boost to the economy once I got CoE spread around a bit.

No one is telling you to only try and build Nox Noctis and you never have to worry again.

Actually, some are, on this very thread no less. I'm arguing, however, that the invisibility - while strong - has certain counters. Sure, you can try certain counter-counters yourself, but that would require anticipating the original counters. Up to this point the discussion of invading land shielded by the Nox Noctis has centered around slow-moving stacks of doom. I don't see why that would be unless one were playing a select few civs (Khazad, Clan, Bannor)

and if your mages are close enough and leveled up enough to maelstrom(granted you have air, death and body mana) the front lines and get away, you can bet they'll be the close enough for the NN owner to fireball and assassin you.(good luck mopping up with those 4 skellies)

Only if they have Commando on their entire stack, including the Mages. That Maelstrom will have to reach 5 tiles past the border. Thats possible to reach with hasted Assassins with Mobility II...assuming I am not using another counter. Really though, I am not saying that your empire would fall to my Mages regardless of what you do, but I don't see Nox Noctis being very strong against a very cautious use of Mages. You'd be better off making your city strong enough to handle a sustained barrage...which means pulling units in from the field and forgoing the invisibility granted by Nox Noctis.

>and i meant fireball your summons on the way to my city in my earlier post not fireball your mages.

Thats fine...summons are expendable and serve well as a distraction if nothing else. If I could not overpower you with the strength of my fireballs and summons, I would build Mobility horse (expendable as well) for pillaging while keeping the pressure on. Besides, by the time I have fireballs, those summons would be something a little more useful than skellies.
 
svaltafar being one of them. I mean really,... a civ covered in ancient forest that hinders your movement(if you're not those cursed good tree huggers((yes i mean you jonathan strange))) and helps me, mixed with mobility promo'd up recon units that are stronger than normal AND poisoned up(thanks to free nature mana). and then shroud everything in invisibility on top of that?

“It's fascinating to think that all around us there's an invisible world we can't even see. I'm speaking, of course, of the World of the Invisible Scary Skeletons.” ~ Jack Handy, philosopher of Hyll, speaking at the Evermore Olive Garden.

I rarely have used NN, and the few MP games I've played in had the NN player getting knocked out by someone else long before they gave me any trouble. The NN player did wreak havoc on the Clan of Embers civ though; caught those cats napping. But no invisibles reached our borders. Or at least I think they never reached them - someone was re-arranging the furniture at the palace while everyone was asleep, and I don't think it was Gilden Silveric.

But I understand the passion which you all argue for/against NN. At one time or another, who among us hasn't felt that we were being watched by unseen eyes in an empty temple hallway? Not me, thank Sucellus, but many have.

At times, on patrol in the woods, the sounds of the forest creatures stop and the tree songs fade, I'll wonder if our cousin Svartalfars are creeping ever closer to appear like wraiths from the trees wielding poisoned blades. More than once, I've given the Heya! alarm to my Fyrdwell and the deer-riders race off...we'll be back with a Druid or Mage to cast entanglement spells or call the lightning bolts from the sky.

P.S. We don't hug trees. The bark's all rough and scratchy and you get moss all over you if you do.
 
It's hard to tell from this distance, but I think that might actually be a bit of moss in your hair, there. That spot of mismatched green on your tunic might be another bit, too.
 
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