Nox Noctis

[Senethro]

How does Nox Noctis let you attack without fear of counter attack? Invisibility doesn't make your units stronger, so a fast attack by a raider civ against cities when their army is known to be elsewhere will be just as effective as it is against anyone else.

You're ignoring my point. The first person to Tier 3 (Iron Working, Sorcery) usually steals cities from their neighbours and frequently wipes out a couple of them. Deception isn't worth delaying Tier 3 for.

 

[klutzy]

yeah those 8-12 turns(normal speed) are a real gamebreaker! you will be overrun by the sheer number of tier 3 units the AI has waiting for you should you tarry but a moment! gimme a break dude!

 

[Korias]

You can't compare esus to other religions! you get all the benefits of the other religions because you have to actually RUN the religion. NN can be had by researching one tech and burning one great prophet (which aren't as rare as you say BTW.) i pop great people like once every 40-60 turns.

hmm, ok, so the other shrines are better than NN? no one with half a brain would concede that! you are actually going to compare: wall of stone(available at construction by the way), slightly lower maintenance cost(whooooaa!), and extra culture(wow, better write home to mom!), to having an invisible, untouchable, army that no longer needs to worry about the marksmen promo?

lets just look at it in the player's hands. If a player gets any other shrine, he gets a relatively good bonus to help his campaign. However, if a player gets Nox Noctis...he wins. That is what i mean by overpowered.

everything has a counter in this game. You are saying that outstanding playing style is the counter for NN, when really that argument could be said about anything. I'm asking for a counter to the invisibility, I already know how to play the game. thanks.

No. No, no, and no. Please shut up now.

First of all, you can, infact, construct the shrine to a holy city without having to follow that religion. This nullifies the majority of your points.
I am going to compare the shrines. Why? Lets think for a second. Each Shrine gives a mana type. Spell Spheres are NOT CREATED EQUAL.

The shrines give bonuses that are strong. Thats the point.

• Code of Junil: Law mana, Maitnence Reduction rates. Coupled with the Autospawning of Alcolytes, which are free medics, or Crusaders, a strength 6 unit, they become powerful. You do not need to run Order to obtain this bonus. Go read Shatner's Bannor AAR to see how a single Law Mana can turn your maitnence costs.
• Song of Autumn: Nature mana, which not only gives you immunity from Muris, but also gives you extra culture in every city with FoL which vastly increases the cultural defense bonus of the Holy City.
• Tablets of Bambur: Insane amounts of Gold, Earth mana for boosted resources and walls of stone, which is the Earth 1 Spell and can be cast in conjunction with the construction of an actual wall, as well as a Palisade (Enabling, with culture and hills, 115% defense. Before Promotions.)
• Necronomicon: Water Mana enables terraforming without having to get a water node up. Terraforming is awesome as you can use it to beef up prior to Genesis. Not to mention that I can get Water Walking to invade other continents with greater ease.
• Stigmata on the Unborn: Entropy mana, prevents enemy units from healing without a Medic I in the stack. Also gives boosted research instead of culture or gold.
• Dies Diei: Sun Mana, enables terraforming, as well as giving nearly all Empy units boosts. Gives you guaranteed access to the Chairman's position. It also gives Gold and culture, GPP, ect that all the wonders do. But this one is meant for you to run Empy, so you can get Chalid and then PoF your way around the map.

The point being that while many of these bonuses arent exclusive (Except Dies Diei), the do free you up so you can get other things as well. Oh look, My palace has Water Mana and I have the OO Holy City. All of my adepts get Water I for free, enabling me to go on a Spring Binge. Sure, I could have built a Water Node, but now I can build a Life Node or Mind Node.

As for the invisible army and ignoring marksman, you are incredibly wrong. If I have units in my stack, they will defend unless you bring the marksmen. Stack Combat is resolved the same way as normal combat, invisible attacker or no. The only difference is I can move onto your tiles and you wont defend.

This brings up the other point. I can avoid your stacks. Go ahead, bring them around. I'll just go a different way. Unless you have the power to bring multiple stacks to the front, my horsemen can just romp around and pillage the crap out of your empire because you cannot defend your improvements without revealing, thereby nullifying the bonus of NN.

Your army is not untouchable if you have NN. They either back off when I move or you reveal them, making them touchable. If I am playing well, then I should have a good attack force in the wings to beat you down. Esus and NN are underpowered in this regard. You dont have priests or temples giving you a bonus to your stacks and cities, I do. This makes my army more powerful and in effect makes me stronger despite you having your army sneaking around me.

Senethro is right with the victory conditions and about Tier 3. As soon as I get to Tier 3, I have gold. Gold which I use to upgrade my troops. So yes, you will be fighting Iron Champions and Channeling II units. 8-12 turns can make a difference, even if I dont have Tier 3 Units. Plus, Go read up on what NN does again. Your units are invisible in YOUR TERRITORY ONLY. Not anyone elses. NN Weakesn your defensive capabilities unless you deny the bonus of NN to units guarding resources. You have to counter attack, you cannot defend tiles. This makes NN a poor choice to build.

Klutzy, you are wrong. This discussion appears on the forum every few months. Please refer to those threads for why NN and Esus are underpowered, I am tired of you blatantly disregarding the points brought up as not comparable when they really are. You saying I cant compare NN to ToB, CoJ, SoA, DD, or Nomicon is like saying I cant compare the Horseman to the Axeman. Your points of it aiding the Victory Conditions are wrong. Infact, they make it more likely for you to fail- Are you going to be surprised when your enemy sees an open border and strikes while you're sneaking around somebody elses stack? What about when I deny you resources from pillaging the roads around the tiles with revealed defenders despite the sneaky stacks?

If you think that NN is overpowered, then there is an issue with your playstyle. it does not guarantee victory. It does not make victory easier either. It requires a particular strategy to use and as such requires a higher level of playing atptitude that can still be beaten out by the tried and true strategy of "Bring Multiple Unit Types".

 

[citizenalex]

If nothing works, I find that NN too strong!

Big stacks, slow progress, at least 5 guardsmen to fend off assassins. Start with coastal cities if only because it's easier to fight off or outrun boats then dealing with any possible range of units that could be coming at you on land.

NN is ******edly strong but likewise hard to achieve. Losing a game to your friend is no good reason to be bashing the last redeeming value in Council Of Esus by infering to modders it should be Nerf'ed down.

 

[Honor]

The invisibility bonus of NN is not exclusive to Esus, so a nerf to NN should not be considered as a nerf to Esus.

@Korias: I read your whole post. You do have some valid points. That said, the fact that you have to rush the guy who has built NN as soon as possible still stands. If you let the game drag on for a while and give a human player with Nox Noctis a chance to build a nice defensive force (preferrably with Fire II Mages and Assassins) - which can always be turned into an offensive force - there is no chance in hell you'll be able to get any territory from him, even if you bring on multiple stacks of doom with any combination of units. This, on its own, shows how ridiculously overpowered NN can be.

Now, on top of that, if your NN human opponent is playing the Sidar, he can declare on every single AI out there and not even suffer a dent, while at the same time getting a steady flow of shades and further opening the power gap between you and him, making it even harder for you to win the game.

 

[Korias]

The invisibility bonus of NN is not exclusive to Esus, so a nerf to NN should not be considered as a nerf to Esus.

@Korias: I read your whole post. You do have some valid points. That said, the fact that you have to rush the guy who has built NN as soon as possible still stands. If you let the game drag on for a while and give a human player with Nox Noctis a chance to build a nice defensive force (preferrably with Fire II Mages and Assassins) - which can always be turned into an offensive force - there is no chance in hell you'll be able to get any territory from him, even if you bring on multiple stacks of doom with any combination of units. This, on its own, shows how ridiculously overpowered NN can be.

Now, on top of that, if your NN human opponent is playing the Sidar, he can declare on every single AI out there and not even suffer a dent, while at the same time getting a steady flow of shades and further opening the power gap between you and him, making it even harder for you to win the game.

Well, you do make a good point. NN does make it easier to level your offensive force while on the defense. But still, you should rush anyone if they build something. You should rush the guy who builds the Eyes and Ears if he's low on the force so he cant make use of those techs. You should rush the player who builds the G. Library so he cant leverage that Research Boost. You should rush the player who builds Ragnarok before he can leverage the stigmata bonus and cause Armageddon while he follows Order and remains untouched by hell terrain.

And NN+Sidar has always been like that with their world spell and being Ind/Def. Its almost like a permanent version of Birthright Regained for them. But thats because the Sidar's basic strategy lends itself to that type of play and they excel at it because of their unique boni. Its like how the Malakim under Empy can dominate the over council. Or how the Order Bannor running Social Order can become exceedingly powerful when crusading.

I'm not saying that the idea of rushing the NN guy isnt a bad idea, I'm simply saying that it is still under powered compared to other shrines and other wonders in the game as a whole.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

If a guy gets a great prophet you probably won't think much of it - certainly not "he's planning to save him until researching deception." Jumping at everyone who gets a GP would be pretty much suicide. So then a player gets deception and does exactly that. Your window of opportunity to do a preventative rush was exactly 0 turns.

It's not the same as, say, the infernal rush the OP considers overpowered, wherein you don't expand and stick with metalless warriors as defenders. Stumbling across a player trying to do that should be an obvious hint: "Hey, this guy is building his strategy on some hailmary tech beeline and neglecting everything else. Better whoop his ass, because it sure won't be a challenge." There's nothing that gives away the fact that a human is rushing for NN, no glaring weakness in their empire. You don't have to sacrifice that much and the sacrifices you do make aren't obvious to another player scouting you out.

 

[Deon]

Nice flame (and discussion).

Post #14.

And fix adaptive and insane.

Period.

 

[klutzy]

Why does everyone keep saying " ah ah ah, you don't get the invisibility bonus on the offense? I KNOW THAT! never have i said that you get it anywhere but your own culture. dies die and Nox Noctis give exclusive bonus' without following the religion. lets just look at the exclusive benefits the holy shrine offers: extra gold(RoK), extra culture(FoL), no hidden or invso in culture(Emp). some extra medics(Ord), cant remember the OO. none of these has the game breaking benefits that NN offers. you talk about bringing all these different forces and going different directions and avoiding me, when, really, you cant even see me. and have no idea what i have. and really, is deception that far away from all these tier 3 techs? i think not.

also, i meant i dont have to worry about your marksman promo, not mine. since you cant attack anything not in a city my mages and assassins are safe.

 

[Deon]

You repeat yourself.

Everyone keep saying what? I keep saying: read post 14, it's an answer.

 

[Rystic]

Why does everyone keep saying " ah ah ah, you don't get the invisibility bonus on the offense? I KNOW THAT! never have i said that you get it anywhere but your own culture. dies die and Nox Noctis give exclusive bonus' without following the religion. lets just look at the exclusive benefits the holy shrine offers: extra gold(RoK), extra culture(FoL), no hidden or invso in culture(Emp). some extra medics(Ord), cant remember the OO. none of these has the game breaking benefits that NN offers. you talk about bringing all these different forces and going different directions and avoiding me, when, really, you cant even see me. and have no idea what i have. and really, is deception that far away from all these tier 3 techs? i think not.

also, i meant i dont have to worry about your marksman promo, not mine. since you cant attack anything not in a city my mages and assassins are safe.

If someone is bothering you with Nox Noctis, march through their territory with units that do area damage. You can use Maelstrom like radar. Also, even if you can't attack, by damaging them, you make it harder for them to attack you. In the end, you still win if you bring stronger units.

 

[Breunor]

I do think CoE is a little weak, for the obvious reason everyone says: Nox Noctis is great, so get Nox Noctis and don't necessarily bother with CoE. I still may go for it if I can't found another religion, or I lost my religious heroes, and I like some of CoE units.

Nonetheless, I consider NN a very powerful feature - but I personally would rather have, for instance, the guild of hammers. Yes, I can't see what is in the way, but like others have said, I can use Maelstorm, Ring of fire, or Chalid's ability, for instance. I can still take cities. Of course, I can march and take the CoE holy city. If my guild of hammers gives me 25% more troops, I'd rather have the extra troops than invisibility.

So, yes, NN is great, but I don't think it is more game breaking than some of the other great wonders. I also agree that there should be some way to override it.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[citizenalex]

If someone is bothering you with Nox Noctis, march through their territory with units that do area damage. You can use Maelstrom like radar.

By far the nicest thing you can do to a player who owns NN. I love it!

 

[Jungle Cat]

I'm the original poster. Quite a nice discussion indeed. I read the whole post. I'll still have to agree with the overpowerd-side. Good defending Klutzy! But Korias made also some valid points.

I wanted to add something. The real power of Nox Noctis is; that you don't know how stong your opponent really is. If you don't know that, you've lost before you began to attack, The famous chinese strategian Tzun Tzu would agree on this one.

Like Monkeyfinger said, you can build NN in 1 turn. So if you prepare right Rushing is out of the question.

The only surprise strategie that works for me is: having high movement soldiers(ex knights) with raider and city attack. In this way you can surprise attack the NN city, trough roads, and raise it.

I would suggest that Empyrean units would be able to see invisible units of Nox Noctis.

PS: I still won the game when my brother built the Nox Noctis wonder. I won a domination victory (70% of terrain of the world). My brother was very surprised. He isn't going to make the same mistake twice. The nox noctis wonder was deep in his territory. All my regualar attacks were in vane.
PPS: when my other brother built Nox Noctis, I also won the late game. Then I was playing with the Mercurians. He couldn't use his dominating Archmages against my SUPERSTRONG angels (knights, beastmasters, shadows with Mithril weapons and with lots of experience tru altar-of-lunnuator-created-reincarnated-priests with 16XP to start from).
PPPS: So it's still possible to win against Nox Noctis with the right strategie. But that doens't mean it's not overpowerd.

 

[Pohlmann]

but u do know the power graph, do u?

u can view every statistic and u always know what you are up against.

and what does nox noctis do when he doesnt attack you or sends a stack when u dont have assassins yet or when he comes with royal guards to keep away your assassins?

and why are you always talking about tier 4 units and stacks of assassins?

i dont get it. if i play i fight with axemen, catapults and maybe chariots.

 

[Earthling]

I definitely agree that Nox Noctis is overpowered, certainly against the AI it's a rather cheesy tactic. Primarily because, as with other Esus abilities, you don't have to run Esus to make use of them, but this one can only be had by one civ (I'd love to see fixes to Esus in general, I don't know why it is the way it is now, and at any rate people on either side of debates like this seem to agree it needs fixing). And there's no doubt that it confers incredible advantages in war - you can attack over and over again with 80% withdrawal catapults for instance and never suffer retaliation, same with assassins, and the many other suggestions everyone here has. If you can make any sort of chokepoint, it's incredibly powerful.

Whoever is arguing that "other religions are just as powerful" just doesn't get it - you can choose any one of those benefits, and then add NN on top of it - whether it's happiness + reduced maintenance from order, tsunami priests, ancient forests, or whatever. And I don't know what game people are playing where Deception is a particularly expensive tech - probably a strawman assuming that you have to like beeline it from turn 1, which nobody is saying. It's incredibly easy to set up compared to the benefits provided, and is indeed worth at least as much as other shrines, especially since, again, they stack.

Last, arguments like "well Lanun on archipelago would own you" or "Just be Tasunke and kill anyone you want" don't address the issue at all, because these still stack with Nox Noctis. Tasunke being powerful or able to counter something is completely irrelevant - after all, then one could just consider Tasunke, with NN.

 

[klutzy]

I definitely agree that Nox Noctis is overpowered, certainly against the AI it's a rather cheesy tactic. Primarily because, as with other Esus abilities, you don't have to run Esus to make use of them, but this one can only be had by one civ (I'd love to see fixes to Esus in general, I don't know why it is the way it is now, and at any rate people on either side of debates like this seem to agree it needs fixing). And there's no doubt that it confers incredible advantages in war - you can attack over and over again with 80% withdrawal catapults for instance and never suffer retaliation, same with assassins, and the many other suggestions everyone here has. If you can make any sort of chokepoint, it's incredibly powerful.

Whoever is arguing that "other religions are just as powerful" just doesn't get it - you can choose any one of those benefits, and then add NN on top of it - whether it's happiness + reduced maintenance from order, tsunami priests, ancient forests, or whatever. And I don't know what game people are playing where Deception is a particularly expensive tech - probably a strawman assuming that you have to like beeline it from turn 1, which nobody is saying. It's incredibly easy to set up compared to the benefits provided, and is indeed worth at least as much as other shrines, especially since, again, they stack.

Last, arguments like "well Lanun on archipelago would own you" or "Just be Tasunke and kill anyone you want" don't address the issue at all, because these still stack with Nox Noctis. Tasunke being powerful or able to counter something is completely irrelevant - after all, then one could just consider Tasunke, with NN.

perfect explanation

 

[Nor'easter]

It's interesting reading this thread, because in the past many people have complained about Nox Noctis, saying that building it makes it difficult to defend your territory. I happen to like building it if I can get it.

 

[Breunor]

It's interesting reading this thread, because in the past many people have complained about Nox Noctis, saying that building it makes it difficult to defend your territory. I happen to like building it if I can get it.

I think people complained it used to be difficult to defend becuase they didn't have the 'reveal' option; therefore, having Nox Noctis was sometimes worse than not having it. Enemy ships would just destroy your resources, you couldn't defend them!

The reveal button now allows you the choice of NOT being invisible.

As I said before, I also like the building. I don't think it is 'broken' powerful as some of the people here say, but it is really good. I think the best part about it is that you can use your workers with impunity, even near enemy border.

I would put it as probably my third or fourth favorite building, depending on the map. In general, the Guild of Hammers and the Nexus are my two favorites. On larger maps with some or a lot of water, I like the Great Lighthouse. But I only play against the AI, I don't know how I would rate them in multiplayer.


Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Dragoon1]

Try having Nox Noctis while running Ashen Vail. Than provoke some to attack you. Spam Ritualist, at least 3-4 per enemy stack.
You ruining completely their day by permanently crippling their stack, and they can do nothing against it. You are completely safe from retaliation. The best is you can decide when and where to attack. You don't have to keep units in reserve to protect your damaged attackers in his turn as he can't retaliate. Best is your Ritualist double function as healers too.
When you got tired of toying with him send you highly experienced army against him. You army will be superior in quantity and quality.
But be advised to have life mana ready to cleanse hell terrain.