Nox Noctis

[Monkeyfinger]

Works great with empyrean too. Blind invading armies and force them to split up and become easy pickings if they want to make any forward progress. It's a lot like the AV method, except the invading army spends more time eating up maintenance while doing nothing.

 

[Emptiness]

Try having Nox Noctis while running Ashen Vail. Than provoke some to attack you. Spam Ritualist, at least 3-4 per enemy stack.
[...]
But be advised to have life mana ready to cleanse hell terrain.

NN isn't the only very powerful religious feature that can be used without following the associated religion. If hell terrain is an issue then you can always switch to another religion after you've built your Ritualists, since you get to keep them and NN means that as long as they remain in your territory you'll be unlikely to ever lose any of them.

 

[Neomega]

yeah those 8-12 turns(normal speed) are a real gamebreaker! you will be overrun by the sheer number of tier 3 units the AI has waiting for you should you tarry but a moment! gimme a break dude!

It is a lot more than 8 - 12 turns. While everyone else is beelining for bronze working, you have to get "way of the wicked" (sucks) and sailing or horseback riding (also two techs I think stink)

I always play for Esus, and it is a tough path to follow. Trade is the only technology worth getting before other players.


However, I do think it sucks you can be non-Esus, but still get the effects of Nox Noctis.

 

[Dragoon1]

yeah those 8-12 turns(normal speed) are a real gamebreaker! you will be overrun by the sheer number of tier 3 units the AI has waiting for you should you tarry but a moment! gimme a break dude!

Against the AI sure, no worries. Against an human, you are fraked.

Because a human plan ahead. If you are a strategy player, making decision in advance ,and not on impulse you already decided on the beginning. If you are going on offense or defense. After a couple of turns you will revise you strategy based on map and current situation, and then you will stick to it. Because shifting mean to weaken yourself.
When you play Iron Man or multi-player there is no saving and reload. That means you learn the hard way that 26%, 75% or even 96% means nothing. You must become the Mongolian hoard and spam units like there is no tomorrow. So that this crappy throw a dice combat system get sick of you.
With other words everyone build warriors in the beginning like crazy and there it comes.
When you decided to go offense you make preparations before you finish research for champions. You grab every spare warrior you have, and move them as close to the border as you can. You build roads to the enemy to fasten movement. You build a training yard in the closest city so your warriors can upgrade when they are inside the city's cultural borders. You accumulate money for upgrading your units.
The second you finished research, a crappy band of warriors/swordsman suddenly turn into a stack of doom. If you aren't prepared for it this, the next 8-12 turns will make you cry.
And don't think that this stack is all you will face. In meantime probably every city of his is building reinforcements ,and they are not going to stop for anything until you back is utterly broken.

 

[DarkxL0rd]

Against the AI sure, no worries. Against an human, you are fraked.

Because a human plan ahead. If you are a strategy player, making decision in advance ,and not on impulse you already decision on the beginning. If you are going on offense or defense. After a couple of turns you will revise you strategy based on map and current situation, and then you will stick to it. Because shifting mean to weaken yourself.
When you play Iron Man or multi-player there is no saving and reload. That means you learn the hard way that 26%, 75% or even 96% means nothing. You must become the Mongolian hoard and spam units like there is no tomorrow. So that this crappy throw a dice combat system get sick of you.
With other words everyone build warriors in the beginning like crazy and there it comes.
When you decided to go offense you make preparations before you finish research for champions. You grab every spare warrior you have, and move them as close to the border as you can. You build roads to the enemy to fasten movement. You build a training yard in the closest city so your warriors can upgrade when they are inside the city's cultural borders. You accumulate money for upgrading your units.
The second you finished research, a crappy band of warriors/swordsman suddenly turn into a stack of doom. If you aren't prepared for it this, the next 8-12 turns will make you cry.
And don't think that this stack is all you will face. In meantime probably every city of his is building reinforcements ,and they are not going to stop for anything until you back is utterly broken.

very well spoken. that having been said, no one is saying to beeline deception, nor to forego bronze working for way of the wicked, it would be stupid to do this. why do you people keep bringing in what-if situations? and you speak as if the player is choosing to research deception with an army at their borders! come on man. like you said, everything is situational, changing on the fly. obviously if civ "x" is looking like they are making stacks of doom, I'm not gonna grab the tech "Drama" in the mean time. and who said horseback riding sux? unlocking the mobility promotion rocks socks dude!

anyways,

I agree that NN creates a situation where the owner becomes extremely hard to kill for the price they paid to get it. Now, everyone and their uncle has come up with uber-strats to beat them. but really, unless your playing a 1v1 game most strats go out the window. like every other civ is gonna leave you alone while you take the precise time and energy to engage an invisible civ with all your stacks of doom working in perfect coordination? yeah prolly? post 14 is the answer, even if the AI is too stupid to do it.

 

[Neomega]

very well spoken. that having been said, no one is saying to beeline deception, nor to forego bronze working for way of the wicked,

You missed the point. Going for deception is a huge risk, you have to take a very non-militaristic path. I have played enough games where everything was going awesome because I had went for bronze working, mining crafting etc instead of writing, fishing, sailing trade etc. Then Esus is found by someone else... booo. You can have one or the other, but you rarely can have both. Try it sometime.

Deception is a very non-militaristic path. It is not easy to get, because you are militarily weak all the way up and even after you get Esus. Even going for archery is risky, I have found, at least at monarch level. I have had games where I was happy to get deception, only to find myself facing iron axemen. I have played plenty of games where I had nox noctis, and still got the stuffing beat out of me, because all that was sent was horsemen and axemen. Plenty of ruined games.

 

[Tasunke]

other balance point: esus doesn't grant temples or priests, it needs something to counter those points. To balance it as a secundary religion, maybe make the invis only take effect when you're running CoE?

exactly, imho you should run Esus state relgion in order to be invisible, and for Dies Dei you should run the Empyrean State religion in order to SEE invisible.

honestly I dont think "revelation" should be able to counter Nox Noctis, although see invisible units, like a recon unit with Perfect sight, SHOULD be able to see Nox Noctis.



Now ... Sidar should get this effect in their borders at all times. Either that or some other useful mechanic to reflect their lore.

However, I think the Sidar still count as living, you can read my full argument on the Sidar Plus thread if you wish. They should be Alliiiive! ( @ warkirby)

 

[Tasunke]

having invisible units is not something anyone but the NN owner can have.

It should prolly only be the Sidar that has invisible units, although I like the Idea of something esus based to hide everything else about the unit. Perhaps this could work better if it doesnt effect world units, but I like the Idea that a dragon can be stealthy too.

Basically, the Esus version of hidden would mean hidden strength, hidden level, hidden unit_combat type, hidden promotions, hidden experience, basically it would look like a Shadow, only strength 1, level 1, zero exp, and no unit combat.

That way, you dont know wether it is a stack of Champions, scouts, or the Death army with a Dragon, 4 archmages, 4 Eidolons, and other goodies. Albiet vs a human player this is better to hide non-spell units, although if this could also hide combat odds it would truly be an excellent mechanic!! Of course, perhaps revelation or perfect sight could be used to combat this, although I think it should first be tried out without these counters!! I just think this would be a better mechanic for Esus than "invisible" ... I mean, Sidar have invisible pegged to a tee. (it could even be a Svartalphar mechanic to replace their crappy hidden nationality)

 

[DarkxL0rd]

You missed the point. Going for deception is a huge risk, you have to take a very non-militaristic path. I have played enough games where everything was going awesome because I had went for bronze working, mining crafting etc instead of writing, fishing, sailing trade etc. Then Esus is found by someone else... booo. You can have one or the other, but you rarely can have both. Try it sometime.

Deception is a very non-militaristic path. It is not easy to get, because you are militarily weak all the way up and even after you get Esus. Even going for archery is risky, I have found, at least at monarch level. I have had games where I was happy to get deception, only to find myself facing iron axemen. I have played plenty of games where I had nox noctis, and still got the stuffing beat out of me, because all that was sent was horsemen and axemen. Plenty of ruined games.

by no means am i trying to be a one-upper. I know everyone plays at different levels of play. but if you're on monarch and can't manage to grab military techs along with the occasional religion or culture techs, then you're doing something wrong. in 3 out of my last 5 deity games, i keep up militarilly(is that a word?) and found esus. I'm not saying I'm the best out there by any means or that anyone who doesn't play deity shouldn't put forth their opinion. All I'm saying is that I find that I don't have a problem staying alive and winning games on deity whilst NOT only staying on a military tech path. check how i won my first deity game here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=318226 , and you'll find that guilds and founding esus sealed the deal for me.

 

[Tasunke]

I would like to think that since this thread started based off of mp results, only MP related intel is truly viable. During MP things usually have to be taken to the extreme, and situational OP is magnified due to perception and inner gameplay frustration. That was a nice diety win, by the way.

By keep up militarily do you mean had all the military techs that they had? or just enough to stay alive ... if the latter, then do you think you could accomplish the same thing in an MP game? well, probably if you were Lanun or elves. If im playing a hard hippus game, usually horseback riding is the only tech I need, and then once I get stirrups I practically feel I can nudge the slider down to 0%. Regardless, does anyone notice that most people winning diety are the elves? XD ... of course, others are possible too, but I think elves are a strong choice. Anyways, stirrups + catapults is usually what I have to do, but the horses mobility generally lets you kill a path clear so that the catapults can put put put slowly up to the city walls.

Of course, in multiplayer I like to not have any reliance on siege, and therefore will try to have limited recon capabilities so that I know that I can take their city with my horsearchers in one turn. I guess if they have Nox Noctis, the main difference is that they can attack me freely after I take their city, therefore the wise thing to do against a human player would be to raise the city, so that an impact is still felt. Although I would like to think that my Horsearcher stack could also withdraw in time to not face the wrath of whatever is hiding in the shadows.

as allways, quickmoves + stack attack + simultaneous turns is your friend, for as long as you let it be.

 

[Neomega]

by no means am i trying to be a one-upper. I know everyone plays at different levels of play. but if you're on monarch and can't manage to grab military techs along with the occasional religion or culture techs, then you're doing something wrong. in 3 out of my last 5 deity games, i keep up militarilly(is that a word?) and found esus. I'm not saying I'm the best out there by any means or that anyone who doesn't play deity shouldn't put forth their opinion. All I'm saying is that I find that I don't have a problem staying alive and winning games on deity whilst NOT only staying on a military tech path. check how i won my first deity game here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=318226 , and you'll find that guilds and founding esus sealed the deal for me.

You still missed the point.... skipping bronze working (BW) for way of the wicked is a false choice. You also must choose to research trade instead of BW, as well as sailing or Horseback riding, instead of BW, as well as writing instead of BW. I mean BW only takes 3 or 4 techs to learn, deception takes like 7 or 8, and for non-religious civs, popping a great prophet is not easy. I don't know how you can stay so far ahead, except perhaps relying on archers and diplomacy... but diplomacy simply is not something one should count on to save them. And the story you posted pretty much confirmed it. You were relying on archers for a good portion of the game. It's a hefty price to pay for Nox Noctis; essentially being the last to have good city stomping weapons.

And I don't like to found or adopt other religions other than esus. In fact, for some reason, in my games, I hardly ever even have the option before I reach deception. There are lots of things that can make the game more difficult. But every extra tech not on the deception path makes me more and more nervous. Yeah, I do *lots* of stuff wrong when I play.

Perhaps you should play some MP. We could always use more players.

 

[DarkxL0rd]

i wish i had the time to get on and play for hours at a time with friends. alas w/ 2 kids, that is not an option. also if you'll notice in my short synopsis, my warrior spam in the beginning was what really gave me the foothold to be a power in my game. yeah, archers saved me during my economic lull, but when i say i was "heading towards guilds" that doesn't mean i was skipping over bronze working or other important techs. in fact with a 4 city empire i had to grab city states just to stop my troops from walking out on me.(skipping over God-King). maybe i just got lucky that no other nation tried to go for deception and that's how i got it. but, with 12 or so other civs in my game(by that time), you'd think they'd got it. svarts strengths are recon units anyways, so maybe you and I are comparing apples and oranges. i can get by with fawns and hunters until i get my coveted assassins. to me, sorcery is my iron, because everyone gets poison upgrades. strength 8 marksmen are just as nasty as champions with iron because they get promoted easier thanks to easy kills and move further. yeah they suck at defense but with high movement i can limit the losses. so yeah, as svarts i don't really need to go down the metal line so much. at least not till later in the game. and then by that time all those techs are cheap.(3-4 turns apiece).

 

[Dragoon1]

I got a kids too. The trick is to set them up for sports and learning a musical instrument.

 

[Neomega]

i wish i had the time to get on and play for hours at a time with friends. alas w/ 2 kids, that is not an option. also if you'll notice in my short synopsis, my warrior spam in the beginning was what really gave me the foothold to be a power in my game. yeah, archers saved me during my economic lull, but when i say i was "heading towards guilds" that doesn't mean i was skipping over bronze working or other important techs. in fact with a 4 city empire i had to grab city states just to stop my troops from walking out on me.(skipping over God-King). maybe i just got lucky that no other nation tried to go for deception and that's how i got it. but, with 12 or so other civs in my game(by that time), you'd think they'd got it. svarts strengths are recon units anyways, so maybe you and I are comparing apples and oranges. i can get by with fawns and hunters until i get my coveted assassins. to me, sorcery is my iron, because everyone gets poison upgrades. strength 8 marksmen are just as nasty as champions with iron because they get promoted easier thanks to easy kills and move further. yeah they suck at defense but with high movement i can limit the losses. so yeah, as svarts i don't really need to go down the metal line so much. at least not till later in the game. and then by that time all those techs are cheap.(3-4 turns apiece).

well, svarts are a bit of a special case, the sinister helps a lot. And yes, you can win by researching deception before bronze, just like you can win with many other strategies. to say Nox Noctis is overpowered, however....

 

[Ekolite]

Everyone in this thread is completely missing the point of Nox Noctis, and the majority of the Esus religion. Esus is not meant to be comparable to the other religions in any way (except when it is used as a state religion). Most of the benefits of Esus and the holy city work on top of another religion. Only one player can have Nox Noctis, so this needs to have disadvantages too. The disadvantages are not being able to defend tiles all that well, unless you choose to give up the benefit of getting it in the first place and if you have to do this too much then you made a mistake in getting the holy city.

There are some situations where NN can seem overpowered, and some when it can seem underpowered. Whether NN is a good strategy relies 100% on the situation you're in. You can't always rely on it like you might be able to do with AV or RoK.

When you are using Esus as your state religion it is easilly comparable to other religions. You don't get negative diplomacy from not having the right religion, you can dump your army next to your enemy capital and declare war without them being kicked out of your borders, and you get the Esus Knights.

 

[Emptiness]

The disadvantages are not being able to defend tiles all that well, unless you choose to give up the benefit of getting it in the first place and if you have to do this too much then you made a mistake in getting the holy city.

Nox Noctis doesn't make it more difficult to defend non-city tiles. For example, let's say you have a copper mine that you need to defend:

If you don't have Nox Noctis, then the best way to defend that tile is to fortify some units on it as defenders. Those units will remain there, to prevent fast units from running into the tile and pillaging it before they can be killed by a counterattack. If an opponent attempts to use a large stack of slower units to take the tile by force then you will be able to respond by counterattacking that stack before it can threaten the valuable copper mine tile. Therefore you only need to station enough units on the mine to fend off a group of fast units. How many units you need will depend on how many fast units your opponent(s) armies contain.

If you do have Nox Noctis, then the best way to defend that tile is the same. The units stationed on the tile will have revealed themselves, so that enemy units can't enter their tile without combat. This does mean that they can't hide any more, but that doesn't matter because they're never going to be doing anything other than defending that tile anyway! You don't have to devote any more units to defending the tile than without Nox Noctis, because any large force will be dealt with by a counterattack. The difference is that with Nox Noctis your counterattackers are not vulnerable to counter-counterattack by the enemy. I'd say that actually makes defending tiles easier with Nox Noctis, not harder.

 

[Neomega]

If you do have Nox Noctis, then the best way to defend that tile is the same. The units stationed on the tile will have revealed themselves,

Not exactly the same. You leave them hidden but fortified until the enemies are within range, then you reveal.

That said, revealing is a huge issue for me for just about every unit except archers with hill or city defense promotions.

 

[DarkxL0rd]

yeah i basically leave just longbows or archers in cities. everyone else is on sneaky duty

 

[Nefelia]

I can see how Nox Noctis would be an excellent defence against conventional Stacks of Doom, but it is not a game breaking feature. If you simply must launch an invasion into NN territory, just follow one of the following tactics:

1) Rush Warhorses and build Ride of the Nine Kings, build a city cracking force of Knights and Chariots. Use Hawks to seek weak frontiers and raze. Bonus: you'll have a strong and mobile counter-attack force for defence.

2) Sorcery, Fireballs, and the Tower of Elements. With Spell Extension I and II your mages never need leave the safety of your borders: with Haste and Mobility I you can bring your mages to your border, summon your fireballs, and flee back to your secure interior. Spam Tigers or Skeletons, or build a few Mobility II horsemen to take and raze the city.

I could probably think of more, but am pressed for time.

 

[Tasunke]

Point is that Nox Noctis rocks. So does Messhaber of Dis. Obviously the Messhaber is stronger than the Nox but ... I think there is nothing wrong with having the Nox and Dies Dei mechanics. I mean, only once civ can have it, and its not all that game breaking unless its a two player MP game. Otherwise its all politics anyways.