nvm

[Frank327]

What specific product of a free market company are you so dependent on that no one could supply an alternative (and thus remove monopolistic price control)? I sure cant think of any(possibly rare minerals, but its not bad that those have a high price: they also stay abundant and are used more economically and for longer thanks to it).

As for making people dependent by not supplying them, how? Competitors will steal your market if you get that lazy.

For example, car manufacturers will greatly help the oil industry out by not making electric cars. They make people dependent on oil, while there were viable alternatives. It gets even more scary if medicine lobbies get involved with food regulations.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Anarcho-capitalism is the same fraud as libertarianism or "small government" fiscal/social conservatism. It's all about conning the little guy into doing the work of the elite for them.

Not even close. It is based on the realization that the phrase "we are the goverment and we are here to help you" is oxymoronic.

 

[aelf]

So Somalia is socialist?

Somalia has no effective central government. It's ruled by a collection of private entities headed by tribal chiefs and warlords. What more could you possibly want?

Since the collapse of the state, Somalia has transformed from what Mohamed Siad Barre referred to as "scientific socialism" to a free market economy. Due to the lack of government oversight or statistics, and the recent war, it is difficult to calculate the size or growth of the economy. For 1994, the CIA estimated GDP at $3.3 billion[5] In 2001, it was estimated to be $4.1 billion.[6] In 2005, the CIA estimated GDP to be $4.809 billion.[7] Real growth in 2005 was projected at 2.4%, and 2.8% in 2008.[1]

The absence of central government authority, as well as profiteering from counterfeiting, rapidly debased Somalia's currency in 2001–2002. By the spring of 2002, the free market rates, such as used in the Bakaara Market, pegged the value of the Somali shilling (SoSh) emitted by the TNG to over 30,000 shillings to the U.S. dollar. In 2003, that rate had leveled off to 20,000 shillings to the dollar.[8] In April 2006, the value had recovered even further to 13,400, which is still below the rate of 10,100 SoSh to the dollar in January 2000.[9] This rate is far worse than the official currency exchange rate, which in January 2000, stood at 2,555.42 SoSh to the dollar[10], and in January 2007, stood at 1,288.26 to the dollar.[11]

Anarcho-capitalists of the world, head now to Somalia to build your paradise from the ground! Galt's Gulch and Rapture await you!

 

[JerichoHill]

Wait Wait,

You actually think an economy that makes most of its money off of the black market and on hijacking ships and holding hostages is GOOD?

Have you been to Somalia? Why don't you go there and tell those people its getting better.

Seriously, this is a rare moment of agreement between myself and Aelf. There's a reason.

 

[holy king]

Seriously, this is a rare moment of agreement between myself and Aelf. There's a reason.

i think this is a rare moment of agreement between pretty much everybody.

 

[Frank327]

I agree that the oil problem will be huge(world production hasnt increased since 2005 so we are likely at the peak!) in the future but public spending on alternative sources isnt a solution.

No one can predict future accurately and say what kind of energy sources have more potential than others when we will need them. Because of that, any large scale investment in such areas has a huge risk associated. Its understandable that private companies will only invest when prices signal it to be necessary and since fossil fuels are still cheap (compared to electric solutions) , there is no need. Unfortunately central banks create credit cycles which manipulate prices and make investment strategies even harder to work out for the private sector.

But increasing taxes to make the state invest in energy solutions is even worse as it cripples the private sector, which keeps the economy working well in the first place.

True, it's s a difficult question.

But by the way, technology isn't the problem. Wind, solar, geothermal and tidal energy already can support most if not all of civilisation if a bit of work is being put into them. There's already a detailed plan for europe called Desertec. I'm afraid again oil and gas lobbies are in the way. You see the stupidest solutions coming forth because of them.

For example, pumping CO2 in depleted oil fields to keep coal viable. It will help the oil industry, but it's so illogical. We have something to store carbon. It's called trees. And plants.

 

[aelf]

Wait Wait,

You actually think an economy that makes most of its money off of the black market and on hijacking ships and holding hostages is GOOD?

Have you been to Somalia? Why don't you go there and tell those people its getting better.

Seriously, this is a rare moment of agreement between myself and Aelf. There's a reason.

Compared to some of these whackos, we believe in relatively similar things

 

[Formaldehyde]

You actually think an economy that makes most of its money off of the black market and on hijacking ships and holding hostages is GOOD?

Well, it's not altogether BAD either, once you understand what is really going on.

http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=45635

Piracy off of Somalia's coast finds its way into the mainstream press, but only because of the attention-grabbing lore of the term "piracy." The situation in the Indian Ocean is so much more complex than what we’re reading about back here.

Piracy wasn’t an issue when Somalia had a real government and a coast guard. Revolutionaries overthrew dictator Mohammed Siad Barre in 1991. Somalia has been in limbo ever since.

Two northern regions of the former state long ago declared independence and have since ruled as sovereign nations, but without international recognition.

In the south, near the former capital of Mogadishu, war continues to rage.

A distinct ethnic group has survived on Somalia’s desolate Indian Ocean coasts for centuries through sustenance fishing.

The region off the coast was/is legendary for its incredible abundance. This proliferation of sea life was maintained on into modern times because commercial interests were never allowed to move in. Once the Somali government fell in ’91, Somalia lost its ability to protect this ethnic group from outside corporate fishing interests.

According to international law, all countries with ocean coastlines own an exclusive economic zone ranging out 200 nautical miles from their shores. The U.S. officially recognizes the EEZ, as do most nations.

But, without a legitimate Somali coast guard to protect these EEZ rights, Asian fishing conglomerates from South Korea and Japan moved into Somali waters and employed commercial methods to harvest fish from within the Somali EEZ. The coastal people watched helplessly as they were driven to the brink of starvation by the sudden over-fishing of their seas (in the midst of a civil war, no less).

Some keen fishermen finally realized that these commercial groups were seizing their catches illegally. The fishermen decided to form their own private coast guard—which was unrecognized by any international court or government.

Becoming desperate after the major Asian fishing groups ignored their demands for fee permits, the new Somali “coast guard” began seizing boats as collateral.

The international community came to the aid of the fishing corporations. Still, the small-time fishermen—without even the most basic modern tools of navigation—had some success. They made a little money. Ransoms were paid and fishing boats from far away toned down their raping of the local waters…

However, this small measure of justice again went unrecognized internationally. Worse still, it drew the attention of some of the warlords fighting for control of southern Somalia and Mogadishu.

Several warlords brought food, resources and guns to the coast and enlisted these generational fishermen—often by force—to continue to capture ships.

Thus, we have “piracy.”

The coast of Somalia has also become one of the prime dumping grounds for all things noxious for the same reasons.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html

The UN Environment Programme (UNEP) reported the tsunami had washed up rusting containers of toxic waste on the shores of Puntland.

Nick Nuttall, a UNEP spokesman, told Al Jazeera that when the barrels were smashed open by the force of the waves, the containers exposed a "frightening activity" that has been going on for more than decade.

"Somalia has been used as a dumping ground for hazardous waste starting in the early 1990s, and continuing through the civil war there," he said.

"European companies found it to be very cheap to get rid of the waste, costing as little as $2.50 a tonne, where waste disposal costs in Europe are something like $1000 a tonne.

 

[Nylan]

-LOL at the freerider problem. There will be freeriders in any society; characterizing that as a problem is an argument against humanity, not an argument against anarcho-capitalism.

Humanity is an argument against Anarcho-Capitalism

In a purely capitalistic society, in order to prosper, you must help your fellow man (lottery/gambling notwithstanding.) You must create happiness for others in order to be happy yourself. Contrast this with a society that is run by a coercive territorial monopolist, in which bureaucrats enrich themselves at the expense of the rest of us.

Hence, governments.

 

[Dachs]

lack of communication possibilities, population local, scattered and nonspecialized, transportation being primitive - these are the technological factors that make oppression possible. These factors make, it possible, that even though a general population is against violence, they are unable to organise protection against raids and make raiders responsible.

This has nothing to do with the quoted problem of the condottieri.

Compared to some of these whackos, we believe in relatively similar things

I've always been confused on what exactly you two disagree on anyway.

 

[Dachs]

I gotta admit i am pretty uneducated on that subject. Enlighten us please,(very relevant from the point of view of the thread aswell)

Short version: military contractors who ran every war in Italy during the 15th century. Since it was not cost-effective to actually fight serious engagements (the cost of losing a trained man being more than these rather limited contractors could bear), wars would instead be decided by financial agreement between these mercenary commanders, who instead of fighting would engage in a dance more akin to play-acting (the useless Kriegspiel) mentioned earlier. This worked just fine for awhile, until trained national armies - or rather, armies raised by a comparatively centralized bureaucracy for the time, hired by the state - reentered the scene under Charles VIII of France and the Holy Roman Emperor Karl V. During the ensuing Italian Wars, the condottieri were marginalized and their forces generally wiped out.

 

[Mowque]

who instead of fighting would engage in a dance more akin to play-acting (the useless Kriegspiel) mentioned earlier.

I seem to remember that during some battles the only deaths were accidents?

 

[Eukaryote]

Anarcho capitalists are totalitarians. It's utterly ironic. In the name of anarchy they intend to less freedom and less choice than Stalin or Mao ever dreamed of.

Exactly! Wouldn't "Anarcho-capitalism" just be a cruel regeme of the masses by the few and powerful?

The most ironic thing about anarcho-capitalism is that it's supposed to be the opposite of communism, but they both lead to the same result, an oppresive hirachy that leaves people poor and miserable.

 

[Eukaryote]

Double Post.

 

[Cutlass]

Exactly! Wouldn't "Anarcho-capitalism" just be a cruel regeme of the masses by the few and powerful?

The most ironic thing about anarcho-capitalism is that it's supposed to be the opposite of communism, but they both lead to the same result, an oppresive hirachy that leaves people poor and miserable.

That's the thing. What you are really removing is any power that can be used as a counter against the power of wealth. You remove literally every restriction on the actions of predators. What you end up with is might makes right. And with an extreme concentration of wealth and power into the bargain.

 

[Kerozine]

That's the thing. What you are really removing is any power that can be used as a counter against the power of wealth. You remove literally every restriction on the actions of predators. What you end up with is might makes right. And with an extreme concentration of wealth and power into the bargain.

How do you think cooperatives will fare in an anarcho-capitalistic society?

Edit: Nvm, it'll eventually lead to a democracy.

 

[Orange Seeds]

This has got to be the most convoluted thread i have ever read. Coherent logic is lacking, responses to objections are oblique and evidence is atrociously hypothetical and unphilosophical.

 

[aelf]

Somehow, I don't think Somalia is a situation where there's a holdover of socialists values.

I've always been confused on what exactly you two disagree on anyway.

Well, in short, I'm a socialist.

 

[a_propagandist]

The best way I can say it is this: before humanity even formed into tribes, into cities and so on, we had anarcho-capitalism. Before we assembled under kings and warlords, we had complete freedom. Yet, we still chose to do so. Throughout history, peoples have repeatedly revolted and razed the old to raise the new. Yet, each time, they have chosen collectively to enact a new system of organization- be it communism or democracy etc. So, if the people truly know what is best for themselves, and if anarcho-capitalism is what is truly best for humanity, why is it that we have collectively ignored and avoided such a society? Unless, you believe that the people as an entity do not know what is best for themselves. But doesn't that conflict with the very basis of supporting individual freedom?

 

[aelf]

Indeed. This seems like a corrupt version of l'homme de la nature et de la vérité and also a horrible twisting of Diogenes of Sinope in that it seeks to replace the trappings of civilization with another set of trappings, but those of more primitive civilization without even the benefit of hindsight