NZ ships banned from Pearl Harbour

[Cheezy the Wiz]

After 26 years of military service, I am positive I have a far more acute understanding of that word than you ever will in your entire life.

You are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I explained that to him that pages ago and so did others. It is futile.

Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on his own dunghill. Richard Aldington

Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first. Charles de Gaulle

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein

 

[Glassfan]

You are confusing patriotism with nationalism.

I have to side with Moby on this one. While nationalism and patriotism are closely related and easy for some to confuse, I believe patriotism emphasises the love and devotion one has for the country one identifies with (mere nationalism).

As a veteran myself, I came to love my country deeply and was willing to lay my life down for it if necessary (devotion). When I speak to younger members of our family, it is clear they enjoy the benefits of American society, take for granted their standard of living by being born here, but would not for a moment consider risking their lives for it. I don't mean to doubt their courage - they simply haven't been tested or challenged.

 

[Formaldehyde]

How is that "siding with Mobby"? Do you think those who find fault with the government are "unpatriotic"? Do you think you have to join the military and even risk your life to be "patriotic"? Does that mean clerks in the military can't be "patriotic"?

 

[MobBoss]

Simple criticism isnt unpatriotic. Taking sides with a nation like Iran or North Korea over american interests because you dont like how the government does things....thats unpatriotic.

And Form, i've risked my life many times in my service to the nation. Are you so blind that you only think going to Iraq or Afghanistan is considered 'risking your life'? I've seen those clerks you so revile and cry about lose their lives in training accidents, and also suffer significant injury in their line of duty. You clearly have no concept of what you speak of, and Glassfan, as a veteran, should agree with me on that.

 

[Glassfan]

How is that "siding with Mobby"? Do you think those who find fault with the government are "unpatriotic"? Do you think you have to join the military and even risk your life to be "patriotic"? Does that mean clerks in the military can't be "patriotic"?

Criticism of the government is a cherished constitutional right, but I don't see America-bashing, as you have often engaged-in, as being consistant with patriotism.

You certainly don't have to enter the service to be patriotic - but it helps.

Being willing to risk your life for your country is as patriotic a thing as a man can do - "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." -John 15:13.

 

[MobBoss]

Glassfan, as a vet, do you believe even military clerks risk their lives in the military? Fwiw, myself, i've known about 15 paralegals that lost their lives in service over the years of the war, to include a Regimental SGM of the JAG Corps, SGM Gilmore.

But he was just a clerk, wasnt he, Form?

 

[Glassfan]

Glassfan, as a vet, do you believe even military clerks risk their lives in the military?

Certainly.

I can't speak for those army sissys, but in the Marines, every man and woman is a trained rifleman and expected to fight. In any combat zone, all personel are at risk 24/7; any unit, from line combat to field kitchens can take morterfire or be overun.

 

[MobBoss]

I guess that answers Forms question quite well. Thanks.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Criticism of the government is a cherished constitutional right, but I don't see America-bashing, as you have often engaged-in, as being consistant with patriotism.

Then you are obviously making the same absurd mistake that he is. I have never "bashed" America. My criticism has always been towards specific governmental policies and those who advocate them.

That is just more excessive nationalism, which is almost always prevalent with those who falsely claim others aren't patriots while they must be.

“Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.” Arthur Schopenhauer

“It is nationalism which engenders nations, and not the other way round.” Ernest Gellner

You certainly don't have to enter the service to be patriotic - but it helps.

What a complete crock, especially given that so many joined the military simply because they needed jobs. Or they did it to be able to kill Japanese / Germans / Communists / terrorists / Muslims etc. Many do join the military due to excessive nationalism. Only there can they legally kill those whom they hate, and hatred is frequently used as a motivation in times of war.

Do you think your girlfriend, spouse, or even mother is any less patriotic than you simply because she likely didn't join the military? How about the president?

I can't speak for those army sissys, but in the Marines, every man and woman is a trained rifleman and expected to fight. In any combat zone, all personel are at risk 24/7; any unit, from line combat to field kitchens can take morterfire or be overun.

You can't very well "risk your life" being employed as a clerk in the US, especially when it continues to be so incredibly easy to simply raise your hand and volunteer for a combat assignment. And the current engagements are far from being the dangerous wars in the past where everybody was at risk if they were even near a combat zone.

 

[Patroklos]

How is that "siding with Mobby"? Do you think those who find fault with the government are "unpatriotic"? Do you think you have to join the military and even risk your life to be "patriotic"? Does that mean clerks in the military can't be "patriotic"?

If you actually had legitimate criticisms supported by logical arguments that would be one thing.

What you actually post in 99% of the time is diarrhea of the mouth. Someone who demonstrates an emotional hatred of a nation based on absolutely nothing they can coherently communicate can not be a patriot. Which is allowed, thanks to the Glassfan's and Moboss's of the world, but you can't have it both ways.

Who the hell cares what Charles de Gualle Has to say about nationalism other than you and our google search?

 

[Glassfan]

You certainly don't have to enter the service to be patriotic...

...Do you think your girlfriend, spouse, or even mother is any less patriotic than you simply because she likely didn't join the military?

Is this rational thinking?

Now please consider this. If I were to criticize something about Gays, we could have an intelligent discussion about it. But if I were to use the "F" -word or other slurs, it would be considered Gay bashing. Likewise if you offer reasoned criticisms of America, we can also have an intelligent discussion. But if you use words like warmongers, imperialists and spoiled brats (and you have) that's considered America bashing.

And are you simply not aware that military clerks (and cooks, doctors, nurses, supply persons, technicians, mechanics, etc.) are stationed in combat zones and do suffer casualties?

 

[holy king]

i see why they would teach you americans that "patriotism-nationalism" dichotomy
(in a country where nationalist propaganda and reproduction of nationalism is so popular people not only expect private companies to do it but they themselves reproduce nationalism without beign forced to by flag waving and putting nationalist symbols like the bald eagle or the national flag pretty much everywhere possible, a country in which, so to speak, nationalist propaganda is wholly ingrained into everyday popular culture, you would definitely need to teach new generations that nationalism is a good thing),
but really, it's basically newspeak.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I have to side with Moby on this one.

No, I've argued Mobby before to the point that he quite simply said, he does not care about the problems of non-Americans, whether Americans are the cause of those problems or not. I would say that's quite the chauvinistic attitude, if there ever was one. All it's missing is some sort of pseudo-scientific explanation for it's correctness, like a comparison of skull shapes, to be straight out of Victorian Britain.

 

[Leonel]

We moor your ships next to our finest strip clubs, nightclubs and bars and you still cry foul? I bet if we assigned a harem of women to each NZ sailor, you'd complain that we didn't provide them with a gold plated litter to carry them around! I guess this is our reward for treating New Zealand like good good friends after their good works in Afghanistan...

Pearl Harbour ban turns into boon for NZ sailors

A ban on New Zealand ships berthing in the big American base at Pearl Harbour has turned into a boon for Kiwi sailors and the nightclubs in downtown Honolulu.

The frigate HMNZS Te Kaha and tanker HMNZS Endeavour are taking part in Rimpac, the world's biggest military operation, but while old enemies Japan and Russia are allowed into Pearl Harbour, the New Zealand ships have been sent to Aloha Tower - deep in the commercial heart of Honolulu.

They are happily close to Hooters and a place called Bikini Cantina. The exile to Honolulu is in return for New Zealand's ban on nuclear warships.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7242384/Pearl-Harbour-ban-turns-into-boon-for-NZ-sailors

 

[MobBoss]

No, I've argued Mobby before to the point that he quite simply said, he does not care about the problems of non-Americans, whether Americans are the cause of those problems or not. I would say that's quite the chauvinistic attitude, if there ever was one. All it's missing is some sort of pseudo-scientific explanation for it's correctness, like a comparison of skull shapes, to be straight out of Victorian Britain.

Not entirely accurate. I care about non-Americans, but not to the exclusion of my own countrymen - much like how I put a precedence on my own family over the rest of my community.

I've given directly for aid to help alleviate non-americans facing tradgedy when disaster strikes. Do you?

 

[Patroklos]

Can we have Forma come back and tell all us active duty and veterans how the military REALLY is? I want to be able to explain it to my sailors when I go to work tomorrow, as they probably don't have the insight he has either.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Glassfan, as a vet, do you believe even military clerks risk their lives in the military? Fwiw, myself, i've known about 15 paralegals that lost their lives in service over the years of the war, to include a Regimental SGM of the JAG Corps, SGM Gilmore.

Isnt there like a special military term for Mobboss ? REMF or something :salutes:
And you can probably thank Patton for this sterotype, after that incident in which he had to prevent hes clerks from withdrawing by braving German fire himself.

 

[wilycoyote]

i see why they would teach you americans that "patriotism-nationalism" dichotomy
(in a country where nationalist propaganda and reproduction of nationalism is so popular people not only expect private companies to do it but they themselves reproduce nationalism without beign forced to by flag waving and putting nationalist symbols like the bald eagle or the national flag pretty much everywhere possible, a country in which, so to speak, nationalist propaganda is wholly ingrained into everyday popular culture, you would definitely need to teach new generations that nationalism is a good thing),
but really, it's basically newspeak.

Apparently brevity isn't part of Austrian propaganda. That's a lot of words to say what you could have said in three words.

 

[MobBoss]

Isnt there like a special military term for Mobboss ? REMF or something :salutes:
And you can probably thank Patton for this sterotype, after that incident in which he had to prevent hes clerks from withdrawing by braving German fire himself.

Given the nature of todays battlefield, i.e. anyone, regardless of their job can be killed by an IED, that term no longer is used in the military in my experience.

Protip: stop using references of what was ongoing in the military that are 70+ years old.