OCC Always War

[mystyfly]

FPs should definitely be farmed until you grow to -cap, then you can watermill/workshop them. Cottages (and whipping for that matter ) in OCC are non-sense.

 

[huerfanista]

I tried this with Lincoln of Japan, immortal/epic - 1818AD win, my best yet:

Spoiler :

Screw cottages, farmed FPs with a PHI leader is the way to go. I was swimming in gp.

I went with globe/NP/HE and skipped ironworks. As you can see, I'm overflowing 100% of my hammers with each modern armor I build.

At size 42 I'm running 11 scientists, 6 priests, and 5 engineers. I settled 14 Great Scientists.

8 MIs + theo + pentagon = 23XP, so I was building commando mechs and cr3C1Pinch tanks/modern armor. I did build 9 CR3C2 samurai and upgraded them to infantry once I got to AL. I broke out with 4GG infantry and 9 CR3 infantry. Once industrialism came in I switched to tanks - CR3 tanks are the real city-busters. I left 1 GG behind to defend a fort outside the mountains at the base of the mountain gap (so I didn't have to fight my way out each time - he had 4 D4 MGs to keep him company). These guys swept thru Hammi. A big stack of CR3 tanks started clearing out Shaka, and when mechs came online I sent my last 2 GGs to join them.

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

I beat this thing on Noble finally using a "seven samurai" strategy. I never had more than 7 units defending the gap, and none of them received a GG. All GGs (16 of them!) were settled as GMI. With WP, Theo and the Pentagon, was cranking out 6-promotion tanks, modern armor and mech inf. Unlike the poster who split his stacks, I kept min together so that it was like a rolling ball of butcher knives. The most advanced AI had infantry defending against my modern armor.

Sweet.

Although I think the scoring system DEFINITELY undervalues an OCC win.

 

[mystyfly]

I am about to abandon attempt #2 (deity/marathon). No motivation to do all the mopup, I'm around 800AD and about to finish off toku and ham. Goal was fastest victory. Started the razing with rifles against lbows. I'm now having infantry and the AI still has nothing better than muskets. I'm gonna start again but want to change a few things:

- NW: I used to think that IW would beat globe with all the resources on marathon but hammers are no issue at all. New NWs will be NE/ox/globe/NP/HE. Frees up kyoto from building all those -buildings and thus speeds up teching.

- Techpath: Not so sure there. Early teching is set in stone, CS (sling) > edu > bio (lib) while trying to avoid SM as long as possible. Since I didn't build globe I went for judaism for additional but that will be no longer necessary. After bio I think it's best to go rifling > MS (commando + mil ac) > communism > RR but I'm not so sure there. Also I'm going to tech nat earlier for the Taj boost towards libbing bio.

- Guards: I used 2 archers and 2 axes to have drill units before samurais. Downside is, they don't get CR so I might just use 4 GG axes and 1 non-GG archer to leave on guard duty forever.


Comments are appreciated.

 

[cripp7]

I am about to abandon attempt #2 (deity/marathon). No motivation to do all the mopup, I'm around 800AD and about to finish off toku and ham. Goal was fastest victory. Started the razing with rifles against lbows. I'm now having infantry and the AI still has nothing better than muskets. I'm gonna start again but want to change a few things:

- NW: I used to think that IW would beat globe with all the resources on marathon but hammers are no issue at all. New NWs will be NE/ox/globe/NP/HE. Frees up kyoto from building all those -buildings and thus speeds up teching.

NWs are good, that's the best mix there. I'm actually going to try a space so holding the pass late game will be fun.

- Techpath: Not so sure there. Early teching is set in stone, CS (sling) > edu > bio (lib) while trying to avoid SM as long as possible. Since I didn't build globe I went for judaism for additional but that will be no longer necessary. After bio I think it's best to go rifling > MS (commando + mil ac) > communism > RR but I'm not so sure there. Also I'm going to tech nat earlier for the Taj boost towards libbing bio.

- Guards: I used 2 archers and 2 axes to have drill units before samurais. Downside is, they don't get CR so I might just use 4 GG axes and 1 non-GG archer to leave on guard duty forever.


Comments are appreciated.

Try holding off rifling as long as possible, you can't build samurais at rifling. Having the WIII/DrIV samurais upgraded to Inf or grenadiers you still get the free promotions. Try holding off until tanks/marines. I never did tech Archery/Feud for archers/lb, will try that.

 

[mystyfly]

Why would I hold off rifling?? Definitely not for samurais. I want rifles ASAP to go on a rampage. The mainstream units will get their drill promotions fast enough.

Why only start warring at tanks/marines? As soon as you get a serious military advantage you should start warring. Rifles and infantry are the best examples.

 

[huerfanista]

@mystyfly

1. Totally agree on HE giving enough to skip IW, getting globe instead.

2. Are you settling all gp (other than academy) or are you doing some bulbing as well? What's your approach on running specs (I'd assume scientists) vs growth? What's your tech path post-CS? Do you revolt to rep/bureau/caste/pacifism as soon as their enabling techs are researched, or do you wait until you get the music GA for a golden age?

3. Do you build any units (probably samurai) pre-rifling and upgrade them, or are you building your rifles from scratch? I've found that CR3 is by far the best promo if you're going without seige, which isn't available to your non-GG troops before tanks - how are you promoting your rifles (D4Commando?)?

4. Breakout tactics: do you run a standalone group of 4-6 commando GGs for city razing or do you combine them with your non-GG troops? How many stacks do you send out?

5. Do you prioritize world wonders, or just grab all you can ALA Obsolete's AI denial SSE/WE strat?


Sorry for all the questions, but any advice you're inclined to give would be most appreciated.

 

[mystyfly]

1.

2. I did settle all GPs. Using music GA for a golden age sounds nice but doesn't pay off, neither the beakers to tech music nor do the turns not spent in "best" civics make up for the few turns of anarchy. Yes I do revolt to all those civics immediately with the example of caste which I revolt to together with buero
Always max growth until -cap. Exception: never work the weak fur tile. The jumbos... sometimes work them sometimes not. They just don't have enough food. At -cap, all scientists or priests or a mix. Important buildings/wonders always with max priests.

3. I did not build any units prerifling to get all the buildings built. Without OR and globe, all the cathedrals and stuff took enough long to build anyway. Will definitely build samurais whenever free when I get globe. CR3 is nice but tech edge is even nicer - compare drill rifles vs lbow to cr samurais vs lbow... and often your stacks meet AI stacks which means they need to be able to defend themselves as well. Regarding promotions, I usually do drill first although combat is nice as well to kill the top defender. Commando is only really useful if you have a stack of commando units or the uber-unit. All the "anti"-promotions (pinch, shock, etc) are useless, generally, combat is better than all those when you're having a greater base strenght (-> military tech edge).

4. I have 4 uber-units which mostly wander around alone trying to raze cities asap. Stacks of 5-10 units do the same thing. Mixing uber + normal units is a waste of morale/commando. Plus, the uber units are very well capable of defending themselves.

Another thing about promotions and uber units when on the attack: Keep in mind that guerilla/woodsman 2 get you double movement in the respective terrain. After the unit has most useful promotions I only use the others to heal should the need arise.

5. Interesting point My early wonder order is SH > GW > mids > ToA > HG > oracle > GL while I finish the oracle as soon as CoL is finished ofc. HG is always finished on the same turn as kyoto grows to get max benefit from the +1 pop.
After that I only really want parth, AWat and taj but I used to build shweda/notre dame/Usak too whenever the capital was free, mostly for the GPP. When you're on the attack after rifling or AL, building the pentagon is a huge waste of hammers, it's so expensive and without any resource so it really isn't worth it.
I think these are all the wonders I'm usually building... I have a few vital ones for their effect and the rest for the GPP. I really like awat btw for all the priest slots and the priest bonus (shame it doesn't apply to settled GPriests ).

Feel free to ask more questions


Oh and one more thing; I kinda think the AI would do much better without Agg AI... Often they come at me with 10+ units, lose the first and retreat... after this stack has travelled around the whole world....

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

1.
4. I have 4 uber-units which mostly wander around alone trying to raze cities asap. Stacks of 5-10 units do the same thing. Mixing uber + normal units is a waste of morale/commando. Plus, the uber units are very well capable of defending themselves.

Don't you think it's a better idea to keep your ubers in the pass for defense? They'll never lose there. Then you use your troops promoted by settled GG and rock and roll. Re: the Nat'l Park...I'm toying with the idea of blowing it off, and using hospitals/recyclings to keep the health manageable so I can include west point for an add'l 4XP. Thoughts?

 

[mystyfly]

I'm surely not keeping them at the pass. I'm just not including them in stacks either. I rather use commando/morale to find and raze underdefended cities.

Health buildings come far too late for my kind of game. Plus, with globe, you can turn your camps into forest preserves for the free specs

edit: West point is probably the NW I would least build there... well maybe before I'd build mount rushmore... but you get my point

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

edit: West point is probably the NW I would least build there... well maybe before I'd build mount rushmore... but you get my point

Not being snarky, but I don't. Between WP and the Pentagon, you get +6 XP or the equivalent of 3 settled GG. Actually, the one game I won with this scenario, I didn't build the globe.

 

[Gwynnja]

Try holding off rifling as long as possible, you can't build samurais at rifling. Having the WIII/DrIV samurais upgraded to Inf or grenadiers you still get the free promotions. Try holding off until tanks/marines. I never did tech Archery/Feud for archers/lb, will try that.

I don't know what obsoletes Samurai, but it isn't rifling. Maybe rifling and military science?

 

[huerfanista]

Feel free to ask more questions

Thanks.

2. I did settle all GPs. Using music GA for a golden age sounds nice but doesn't pay off, neither the beakers to tech music nor do the turns not spent in "best" civics make up for the few turns of anarchy.

But you obviously research music or you couldn't build cathedrals. When do you slot music/drama? I've used the free GA for bulbing drama, but do you think it's better to settle him?

3. I did not build any units prerifling to get all the buildings built. Without OR and globe, all the cathedrals and stuff took enough long to build anyway. Will definitely build samurais whenever free when I get globe. CR3 is nice but tech edge is even nicer - compare drill rifles vs lbow to cr samurais vs lbow... and often your stacks meet AI stacks which means they need to be able to defend themselves as well.

I wasn't thinking about attacking with samurai, just being able to upgrade them to CR3 rifles for city busting (accompanied by regular drill/combat rifles for stack protection, OFC). I find that, without seige, rifles pretty much suck against longbows if they don't have CR3.

Regarding promotions, I usually do drill first although combat is nice as well to kill the top defender. Commando is only really useful if you have a stack of commando units or the uber-unit. All the "anti"-promotions (pinch, shock, etc) are useless, generally, combat is better than all those when you're having a greater base strenght (-> military tech edge).

So if your stack is entirely 1-move units, do you build 4-5 accuracy cannon purely for reducing the city defense?

4. I have 4 uber-units which mostly wander around alone trying to raze cities asap. Stacks of 5-10 units do the same thing. Mixing uber + normal units is a waste of morale/commando. Plus, the uber units are very well capable of defending themselves.

Another thing about promotions and uber units when on the attack: Keep in mind that guerilla/woodsman 2 get you double movement in the respective terrain. After the unit has most useful promotions I only use the others to heal should the need arise.

The ubers are great stack defense and W3M3 is really useful for healing the stack, but I suppose it'd be almost as good to promote 1 rifle in the stack to W3C1M1, which is almost as good (since you've got 5 promos to play with).

5. Interesting point My early wonder order is SH > GW > mids > ToA > HG > oracle > GL while I finish the oracle as soon as CoL is finished ofc. HG is always finished on the same turn as kyoto grows to get max benefit from the +1 pop.
After that I only really want parth, AWat and taj but I used to build shweda/notre dame/Usak too whenever the capital was free, mostly for the GPP. When you're on the attack after rifling or AL, building the pentagon is a huge waste of hammers, it's so expensive and without any resource so it really isn't worth it.
I think these are all the wonders I'm usually building... I have a few vital ones for their effect and the rest for the GPP. I really like awat btw for all the priest slots and the priest bonus (shame it doesn't apply to settled GPriests ).

I've been building the Paya so that I don't have to waste time researching theo. What's your tech order after taking CS from the oracle? MC gives +3, but aesth opens up the wonders. Also, after lit do you go for drama or phil (or MC, if you don't have it already)?

 

[huerfanista]

I don't know what obsoletes Samurai, but it isn't rifling. Maybe rifling and military science?

I think you'll find out on the next turn.

 

[huerfanista]

Not being snarky, but I don't. Between WP and the Pentagon, you get +6 XP or the equivalent of 3 settled GG. Actually, the one game I won with this scenario, I didn't build the globe.

Not being snarky, but you're playing on noble and he's playing on deity. I'm not referring to the difference in your ability, but to the differences imposed on the player by the difficulty level. You must tech a lot faster on deity to have a chance, and the higher you can raise your cap the more specs you can run. Also, as the difficulty increases, so does the number of units that the AI will throw at you, which results in more GGs than at lower levels. It's relatively easy to get 20+ GGs on deity, and with theo and a rax you only need 8 settled for 5 promos. That's very easy to attain on immortal+.

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

Not being snarky, but you're playing on noble and he's playing on deity. I'm not referring to the difference in your ability, but to the differences imposed on the player by the difficulty level. You must tech a lot faster on deity to have a chance, and the higher you can raise your cap the more specs you can run. Also, as the difficulty increases, so does the number of units that the AI will throw at you, which results in more GGs than at lower levels. It's relatively easy to get 20+ GGs on deity, and with theo and a rax you only need 8 settled for 5 promos. That's very easy to attain on immortal+.

Thanks

Now I get it. Actually, I've moved up a level to Prince and I'll keep going until I get to Deity.

 

[Gwynnja]

@ Mystfly: what year did you oracle-sling civil service? I was about 8 turns away from math @ 1525BC and hoped to have oracle done coinciding when it was built.

 

[mystyfly]

Not being snarky, but I don't. Between WP and the Pentagon, you get +6 XP or the equivalent of 3 settled GG. Actually, the one game I won with this scenario, I didn't build the globe.

3 settled GGs = 2xp + 9 beakers. I'm not saying WP and pentagon are bad, but they are just not worth it. Pentagon is too expensive (better build research) and WP uses one of the precious NW slots... which ones are you building then??

I don't know what obsoletes Samurai, but it isn't rifling. Maybe rifling and military science?

I think you need two more upgrades to the UU to obsolete it... This way, quechuas aren't obsolete until maces IIRC.

But you obviously research music or you couldn't build cathedrals. When do you slot music/drama? I've used the free GA for bulbing drama, but do you think it's better to settle him?

I tech music much later, don't remember exactly when, sometimes after the NP got built I think as becomes the limiting factor again. Settling the GA is best imo.

I wasn't thinking about attacking with samurai, just being able to upgrade them to CR3 rifles for city busting (accompanied by regular drill/combat rifles for stack protection, OFC). I find that, without seige, rifles pretty much suck against longbows if they don't have CR3.

You misunderstand me. I built research (-> tech edge) in favour of samurais for upgrade... I wanted to get to rifling ASAP to start warring earlier. Though I think building samurais is actually better.

So if your stack is entirely 1-move units, do you build 4-5 accuracy cannon purely for reducing the city defense?

No siege. Infantry kills everything. Only siege unit I'd build would be artillery but that's way too late. City defense is no problem as the AIs aren't exactly culture-whores and walls and stuff is obsolete anyway.

The ubers are great stack defense and W3M3 is really useful for healing the stack, but I suppose it'd be almost as good to promote 1 rifle in the stack to W3C1M1, which is almost as good (since you've got 5 promos to play with).

Again, with the tech edge of rifles/infantry, you don't need any stack defenders. Healing, ok, but with multiple smaller stacks, one occasionally can easily have a rest for a few turns in neutral territory to heal. That suffices, plus there are promotions to heal. I do have one medic 2 unit per stack mostly though, in the bigger ones at least.

I've been building the Paya so that I don't have to waste time researching theo. What's your tech order after taking CS from the oracle? MC gives +3, but aesth opens up the wonders. Also, after lit do you go for drama or phil (or MC, if you don't have it already)?

I'm running pacifism until I get a sizeable army so no rush for theo. Teching after CS depends on the needs, if I desperately need happiness I go MC first but prefer aest > lit before. Then philo for awat, then edu. Drama not until much later but with globe, probably drama before philo.

@Gwynnja: Oracle was at 1830BC and 2080BC. In the first game however I went for hinduism I think so I got a bit sidetracked Lib>bio 40BC and 100AD.


One more thing I think I just mentionned shortly: Stealing workers and choking AIs works very very very well. Get your warrior to woodsman 2 ASAP and steal some workers. I prefer choking ham as he is the biggest contender in the oracle race. I easily get 5-6 workers on deity.


And for laughs, turn of victory in my first attempt:

 

[JoeMacUnGee]

3 settled GGs = 2xp + 9 beakers. I'm not saying WP and pentagon are bad, but they are just not worth it. Pentagon is too expensive (better build research) and WP uses one of the precious NW slots... which ones are you building then??

IFor my national wonders, I built:

HE
NP
NE
WP
IW

I skipped the globe, because I'd ended up founding 4 religions, so I had temples for each, a theater, a colosseum, etc. This time around, I substituted Globe for the IW.

 

[mystyfly]

What about oxford?