shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
@Grashopa
So, draft rifles?
So, draft rifles?
OCC: Conquest
- Thread starter VoiceOfUnreason
- Start date
some interesting games are running now. i like the commerce approach from grashopa, but going for ealry mids might also be a valid strat. (maybe even more so, if built via a GE)
...
still, i went down a different path:
pre-game-thinking, after opening the save and seeing the surroundings:
...
still, i went down a different path:
pre-game-thinking, after opening the save and seeing the surroundings:
Spoiler :
@ grashopa:
i´m curious to see when you are ready to go warring. you might get rifling really, really early...
...
concerning hammers:
i tried to maintain a strikt unit/turn ratio so i actually did really depend a lot on hammers. i did build around 80 units throughout the whole game, which took me around 100 turns to do so. but again, i never had such an impressive techlead as you did (altough i had infantry around 1450 AD
)
i´m curious to see when you are ready to go warring. you might get rifling really, really early...
...
concerning hammers:
i tried to maintain a strikt unit/turn ratio so i actually did really depend a lot on hammers. i did build around 80 units throughout the whole game, which took me around 100 turns to do so. but again, i never had such an impressive techlead as you did (altough i had infantry around 1450 AD
)My plan from the start was caste workshops so after Oxford grab the bottom line getting the apothecary for +4 health then steel for cannons / macemen.. Use macemen early ( build some before the ADs ) to get HE unlocked and I think you can do 4 or 5 workshops and have more than 100 hammers and still have almost 300 beakers post steel to keep researching while you 1 turn cannons and grenadiers/rifles etc..
I'm not sure I'll play it out so I'd be curious if someone tried a similar strategy. I'm guessing steel by 500 AD with HE built is possible? But Snaaty's longer term beakers are much greater so no infantry and I don't know how the warring later would compare. After CS in 800 BC if you go straight to war with macemen maybe its better?
I'm not sure I'll play it out so I'd be curious if someone tried a similar strategy. I'm guessing steel by 500 AD with HE built is possible? But Snaaty's longer term beakers are much greater so no infantry and I don't know how the warring later would compare. After CS in 800 BC if you go straight to war with macemen maybe its better?
problem i still see are hammers. you not only need to get oxford+baracks+forge+he+theatre+globe up, you also need a sizable army to upgrade to rifles (or cannons) getting like 20 cr2/3 maces (like i did, 8 upgraded from axes) took me, backed with some cats, around 30 turns. then upgrading everything to rifles were around 3000 gold (+800 gold for upgrading the axes to maces). i had banked, thanks to settled gps and gas like 1400 gold, another 1200 from a trade mission (economics), rest from selling techs.
say, oxford up around 300-400 AD (and there isnt lots of room for building some units), then baracks, he, theatre, globe (you really need it, ww really kicks in after razing cities
), forge + some 20 units to upgrade + the money to pay for it... ...maybe play it out up to 1000 AD, before you start heavy warring to see if it is possible?i started warring around 1200 AD and never stopped, picked industrialism from lib around 1400 AD and thanks to cr rifles and later cr infs was warring really fast with almost no losses, while still maintaining the one unit/turn ratio... ...IF you can get into a position around 1000 AD to start warring with 20-30 units ready to go, it might work out to be faster, if not, it would get a close call
ABigCivFan
Emperor
@Grashopa,
The focused commerce approach (i.e. not hooking up copper and run HR with warriors) is very risky here with 2 worst warmongers in the game as neighbors. These guys can actually DOW human player when they are already in a war with someone else
If I do this, I would hook up the copper early and use Axe as the happy police units. Then fighting some small wars early would actually be good to unlock HE and get couple of GGs for settle.
I prefer a hybrid approach with whipping infrastructures, growing GPs and power research to the key economic and military techs. Ideally the infrastructure should be all ready when you are ready for a non-stop war.
Also warring with Cavs is so much faster than anything else here, if might be better to delay adopting a religion, until you see an AI with Horse available for trading. Then get this guy to pleased and aim to trade horse with him ASAP.
[Edit] Please ignore the above comments about using warriors as happy police. I just tried this approach and it is working very well under this game's settings. The AIs are backwards, there is really not much risk using warriors as happy police until you see some AI Axe near the borders. Even then, you should have enough time to chop/whip a few units to fend off the invasion. I mined the 2 hills early and left the copper mine 1 turn unfinished just in case. With this super science pace, it is easy to bribe AIs and easy to defend yourself with more advanced units.
Oracle->MC->GE->Pyramid is not reliable since the chance of getting a GE over a GProphet is not much greater.
I held off on adopting a religion this time. spread confu to Ottoman to spice things up a bit. At 575BC, China already has an extra horse for trade, and all I need is to get him to pleased...
[Edit] 150BC, he is willing to trade horse for copper
In the last pic, I DOW spain first to lower the bribe cost, and then bribe Mehmed to war against Izzy at small cost of Monarchy, now everyone is at war...
The focused commerce approach (i.e. not hooking up copper and run HR with warriors) is very risky here with 2 worst warmongers in the game as neighbors. These guys can actually DOW human player when they are already in a war with someone else
If I do this, I would hook up the copper early and use Axe as the happy police units. Then fighting some small wars early would actually be good to unlock HE and get couple of GGs for settle.
I prefer a hybrid approach with whipping infrastructures, growing GPs and power research to the key economic and military techs. Ideally the infrastructure should be all ready when you are ready for a non-stop war.
Also warring with Cavs is so much faster than anything else here, if might be better to delay adopting a religion, until you see an AI with Horse available for trading. Then get this guy to pleased and aim to trade horse with him ASAP.
[Edit] Please ignore the above comments about using warriors as happy police. I just tried this approach and it is working very well under this game's settings. The AIs are backwards, there is really not much risk using warriors as happy police until you see some AI Axe near the borders. Even then, you should have enough time to chop/whip a few units to fend off the invasion. I mined the 2 hills early and left the copper mine 1 turn unfinished just in case. With this super science pace, it is easy to bribe AIs and easy to defend yourself with more advanced units.
Oracle->MC->GE->Pyramid is not reliable since the chance of getting a GE over a GProphet is not much greater.
I held off on adopting a religion this time. spread confu to Ottoman to spice things up a bit. At 575BC, China already has an extra horse for trade, and all I need is to get him to pleased...
[Edit] 150BC, he is willing to trade horse for copper
In the last pic, I DOW spain first to lower the bribe cost, and then bribe Mehmed to war against Izzy at small cost of Monarchy, now everyone is at war...
Attachments
This was the first OCC game that I've played. I wanted to trade for horsies, but eventually gave up looking and went on the offensive with Cannons. I wasn't looking to play the fastest game ever (I think I attacked after 1500 AD...). Mostly, I tried to generate Great Prophets, try to break my draft record, and have some fun. 
Montezuma DOW'd against me three times. On one of those occasions, he was at war with two other AI.
Game end:
BTW, why hurry to Assembly Line? If you Lib Rifling or Steel, the AI can't handle a Globe powered Rifle draft. All you need to do is bounce from one tech leader to the next and, before you know it, you have 3 or 4 stacks running around the globe.
Montezuma DOW'd against me three times. On one of those occasions, he was at war with two other AI.
Game end:
Spoiler :
BTW, why hurry to Assembly Line? If you Lib Rifling or Steel, the AI can't handle a Globe powered Rifle draft. All you need to do is bounce from one tech leader to the next and, before you know it, you have 3 or 4 stacks running around the globe.
@ abc:
i got backstabbed twice during the game. but good thing is that it only starts in the ad`s and then you are ready (first from monty, second from mao), so yes, you are right, but having some 4ish units to defend already ready helps not getting plundered some cottages.
getting horses is great. if you now manage to prebuild an army big enough to upgrade and later ensure the prod to maintain a unit/turn ratio for cuirassirs + cavs, you might get an incredible finish date (i couldnt get horses because mao was the only one having them and he hated me due to wrong religion and attacking his buddy monty)
...
@ doshin:
i never drafted. i only used cr2-3 upgrades and managed to build close to 1 unit/turn throughout the game (and without bureau, i wasnt able to do so, so i figured i better build them then draft them). and i didnt bounce from ai to ai, i simply killed off everything in the way once i startet warring (so for your innitial war, you need enough units to invade 1 ai and to fend off his neighbour on the side you start the attack in a def. war. the other neighbour doesnt matter, because once you come near his borders you will attack him anyways.)
infs basically doubles your army, because instead of a 10-15 unit stack taking big enemy cities, you only need 5-8 and can attack without promos and healpromo them (i got units with 3 promos, so i did do a lot of healpromo). and up to inf. you still can build maces, so you can directly upgrade a bunch of cr maces to infs. with reaching infs i went totally berserk and attacked the remaining 4 ais in parallel with 6-8 stacks of infs
i got backstabbed twice during the game. but good thing is that it only starts in the ad`s and then you are ready (first from monty, second from mao), so yes, you are right, but having some 4ish units to defend already ready helps not getting plundered some cottages.
getting horses is great. if you now manage to prebuild an army big enough to upgrade and later ensure the prod to maintain a unit/turn ratio for cuirassirs + cavs, you might get an incredible finish date (i couldnt get horses because mao was the only one having them and he hated me due to wrong religion and attacking his buddy monty)
...
@ doshin:
i never drafted. i only used cr2-3 upgrades and managed to build close to 1 unit/turn throughout the game (and without bureau, i wasnt able to do so, so i figured i better build them then draft them). and i didnt bounce from ai to ai, i simply killed off everything in the way once i startet warring (so for your innitial war, you need enough units to invade 1 ai and to fend off his neighbour on the side you start the attack in a def. war. the other neighbour doesnt matter, because once you come near his borders you will attack him anyways.)
infs basically doubles your army, because instead of a 10-15 unit stack taking big enemy cities, you only need 5-8 and can attack without promos and healpromo them (i got units with 3 promos, so i did do a lot of healpromo). and up to inf. you still can build maces, so you can directly upgrade a bunch of cr maces to infs. with reaching infs i went totally berserk and attacked the remaining 4 ais in parallel with 6-8 stacks of infs
... ...i guess it was for the monastry, but at that point in the game it will never pay off
. same with the sheeps, i simply forgot about them and they also remained mined untill the bitter end
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Has anyone considered drafting Macemen (need only nearby Copper) and building Trebuchets for an early as possible win? The draft would be more effective with the original two Corn and one Pig start. Spies could be used to Support City Revolts in those cities with Castles plus many defenders.
If a Civ is left with only island cities (assuming islands exist), an early Conquest Victory will not be possible. Waiting for Flight, because ships can't be built would be painful. Even Paratroopers may fail, if the target island is out of range of the capital or cultured fort.
The No Vassal setting makes Conquest Victory especially difficult. One could otherwise use Vassals (even Peace Vassals) to subdue hard to reach enemy island cities, again assuming islands even exist.
Sun Tzu Wu
If a Civ is left with only island cities (assuming islands exist), an early Conquest Victory will not be possible. Waiting for Flight, because ships can't be built would be painful. Even Paratroopers may fail, if the target island is out of range of the capital or cultured fort.
The No Vassal setting makes Conquest Victory especially difficult. One could otherwise use Vassals (even Peace Vassals) to subdue hard to reach enemy island cities, again assuming islands even exist.
Sun Tzu Wu
@Sun Tzu Wu
The capital's draft limit in this game is virtually non-existent. I drafted one unit per turn every turn from Rifling onwards and was still able to do so by the time I reached Assembly Line (>550 turns of draft anger).
If I were to try and get an early finish date, I think I would beeline Macemen much more aggressively, forget about mid-game wonders, and start drafting/attacking a great deal sooner. The capital could build siege for support. Steel or Rifling could still be Lib'd and, while I get snaaty's comment about the durability of Infantry, it seems to me that draft Rifles (especially when supported by upgraded CR III Rifles) do the job just fine when you're only fighting Longbows.
In my game (and I guess the others?) Mao and Monty were both pretty weak. If you start by attacking Monty in the north, and fan out W/E simultaneously, you can easily clear this part of the map while picking up steam. The economy, with all the gold from captured cities and settled priests, is not a problem. The two stacks can then duck into the capital's borders by the time you reach Rifling. Mass upgrade and continue to encircle the world, declaring on AI who threaten to settle the cleared land (more 8-12 unit stacks are needed the further east/south you go).
Cavalry would be quicker, of course, but horses weren't available in my game.
The capital's draft limit in this game is virtually non-existent. I drafted one unit per turn every turn from Rifling onwards and was still able to do so by the time I reached Assembly Line (>550 turns of draft anger).
If I were to try and get an early finish date, I think I would beeline Macemen much more aggressively, forget about mid-game wonders, and start drafting/attacking a great deal sooner. The capital could build siege for support. Steel or Rifling could still be Lib'd and, while I get snaaty's comment about the durability of Infantry, it seems to me that draft Rifles (especially when supported by upgraded CR III Rifles) do the job just fine when you're only fighting Longbows.
In my game (and I guess the others?) Mao and Monty were both pretty weak. If you start by attacking Monty in the north, and fan out W/E simultaneously, you can easily clear this part of the map while picking up steam. The economy, with all the gold from captured cities and settled priests, is not a problem. The two stacks can then duck into the capital's borders by the time you reach Rifling. Mass upgrade and continue to encircle the world, declaring on AI who threaten to settle the cleared land (more 8-12 unit stacks are needed the further east/south you go).
Cavalry would be quicker, of course, but horses weren't available in my game.
My initial thought was Oracle CoL, milk few GM's, while making warriors, then mass upgrade. But this could be a bit complicated here and I felt lazy to do all micro required. Did anyone try this?
I decided to go usual OCC style: Henge, Mids, etc.
I decided to go usual OCC style: Henge, Mids, etc.
basically it goes down to a simple formula:
a) how many units do you need?
b) how fast can you produce one of them?
c) when can you start to produce them?
so warring earlier doesnt neccessary mean winning earlier, because if you might need 80 units and need 2 turn to produce one of them, you need 160 turns to produce them all. assuming you start t50 that would mean t210 would be the earliest date you could finish.
in fact, i guess it is quite complicated to find the ideal starting point for warring here, maces + trebs might mean more losses then rifles and therefore more units in total and a later finish date.
drafted rifles come with no promos and therefore you need more of them then rifles you build the conventional way... ...a combo of drafted rifles and upgraded cr maces might be best, but then you need the production to build maces in a reasonable ammount of time (which is hard to do once you start drafting your productive tiles away)
upgrading is another strategy, but starting with warriors it is very expensive (if i remember right 80 gold to an axmen, axmen to mace 120 gold, mace to rifle 140 gold). so warrior to mace would be around 200 gold each and could be possible around 1 AD. a great merchant gives somewhat around 1000 gold at that point, so you need 1 gm for 5 units...
as for timeline:
around 350 ad most ais had either lbs or cbs in my game, so warring with trebs + maces needs quite some number on your side, say after 500 ad
...
very early rifling + drafting (switching off tech once you libbed rifling) and some upgrading might be really efficient (maybe starting to draft around 600 AD?)
riding units kill the enemy faster for sure, but can you produce/upgrade enough of them to compete with the 1,5 units/turn you can get via drafting + upgrading?
maybe even start warring with maces+trebs, somehow maintain your techspeed, upgrade to rifles in time to keep warring?
....
interesting for sure. i hope to see some more games finish. winning before 1500 AD (starting to go all in on war around 800-1000 AD, warring for 50 turns or less) seems a real challange but might be done i guess. if someone manages to go warring effectively even before rifling it could be even faster...
a) how many units do you need?
b) how fast can you produce one of them?
c) when can you start to produce them?
so warring earlier doesnt neccessary mean winning earlier, because if you might need 80 units and need 2 turn to produce one of them, you need 160 turns to produce them all. assuming you start t50 that would mean t210 would be the earliest date you could finish.
in fact, i guess it is quite complicated to find the ideal starting point for warring here, maces + trebs might mean more losses then rifles and therefore more units in total and a later finish date.
drafted rifles come with no promos and therefore you need more of them then rifles you build the conventional way... ...a combo of drafted rifles and upgraded cr maces might be best, but then you need the production to build maces in a reasonable ammount of time (which is hard to do once you start drafting your productive tiles away)
upgrading is another strategy, but starting with warriors it is very expensive (if i remember right 80 gold to an axmen, axmen to mace 120 gold, mace to rifle 140 gold). so warrior to mace would be around 200 gold each and could be possible around 1 AD. a great merchant gives somewhat around 1000 gold at that point, so you need 1 gm for 5 units...
as for timeline:
around 350 ad most ais had either lbs or cbs in my game, so warring with trebs + maces needs quite some number on your side, say after 500 ad
...
very early rifling + drafting (switching off tech once you libbed rifling) and some upgrading might be really efficient (maybe starting to draft around 600 AD?)
riding units kill the enemy faster for sure, but can you produce/upgrade enough of them to compete with the 1,5 units/turn you can get via drafting + upgrading?
maybe even start warring with maces+trebs, somehow maintain your techspeed, upgrade to rifles in time to keep warring?
....
interesting for sure. i hope to see some more games finish. winning before 1500 AD (starting to go all in on war around 800-1000 AD, warring for 50 turns or less) seems a real challange but might be done i guess. if someone manages to go warring effectively even before rifling it could be even faster...
Manco Capac
Friday,13 June,I Collapse
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Exactly, I'm glad I've chosen that path so I can learn some new lessons about setting up economy before is better than early warfare.
At least, I've learnt so much more in human-AI warfare.
Below is another attempt and it's so slow I think it's bad.
If I had to retry, I'll go for full-fledged economy...especially on monarch where outdoing the AI in tech is pretty doable.
I think here in this scenario, it's military edge>>>choking+early attrition wars.
Now, on the go for another game that will expire soon...
EDIT: Lesson learnt for future cases: I was too much presumptuous thinking that would be easy even on monarch to take out those AI's in OCC (especially in a capital that is so hammer poor).
OCC conquest definitely needs military edge and a city that fully blossomed.
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@Doshin:
Thanks for your comments concerning Drafting and more.
Although I didn't mention it, I was thinking of later upgrading Macemen to Riflemen near the end of the game, if necessary. I like the idea of upgrading CR3 Macemen to Riflemen. They will be nearly as effective as Infantry with one promotion (Combat I) versus cities.
In my opinion, one should achieve Conquest Victory well before reaching Assembly Line. Infantry will be overkill versus whatever the AI will be able to muster.
Might try Scientist bulbing of Machinery and Engineering for early Crossbowmen and Trebuchets. Later Macemen with Civil Service (remote chance of Great Prophet partial bulb with Code of Laws and Theology).
Sun Tzu Wu
Thanks for your comments concerning Drafting and more.
Although I didn't mention it, I was thinking of later upgrading Macemen to Riflemen near the end of the game, if necessary. I like the idea of upgrading CR3 Macemen to Riflemen. They will be nearly as effective as Infantry with one promotion (Combat I) versus cities.
In my opinion, one should achieve Conquest Victory well before reaching Assembly Line. Infantry will be overkill versus whatever the AI will be able to muster.
Might try Scientist bulbing of Machinery and Engineering for early Crossbowmen and Trebuchets. Later Macemen with Civil Service (remote chance of Great Prophet partial bulb with Code of Laws and Theology).
Sun Tzu Wu
Manco Capac
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@all
Is that normal if the AI captured my workers, once got back, they are still alive. I thought AI stealing human workers sees their workers automatically disbanded.
Unless there's a special rule for workers I got from them allowing them to take their properties back. I was starting to think my game was starting to bug for no reason because it didn't happened in my first draft.
Is that normal if the AI captured my workers, once got back, they are still alive. I thought AI stealing human workers sees their workers automatically disbanded.
Unless there's a special rule for workers I got from them allowing them to take their properties back. I was starting to think my game was starting to bug for no reason because it didn't happened in my first draft.
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After Barracks and a settled Great General/Vassalage/Theocracy with State Religion, drafted units will get one promotion and built units will get 2 promotions.
How does one get an estimate of needing 80 military units for Conquest Victory? Wouldn't a smaller number suffice for an early win? Just need a good plan to keep the AI from resettling cleared areas.
@Tachywaxon:
AI capturing player's Workers always causes a disband of them to keep player from baiting AI with Workers.
Sun Tzu Wu
How does one get an estimate of needing 80 military units for Conquest Victory? Wouldn't a smaller number suffice for an early win? Just need a good plan to keep the AI from resettling cleared areas.
@Tachywaxon:
AI capturing player's Workers always causes a disband of them to keep player from baiting AI with Workers.
Sun Tzu Wu
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