OCC: Conquest

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Settings:

Monarch difficulty
Pangaea (solid coastline)
Ancient Era
Normal Speed

One-City Challenge
No Huts
No Events
No Vassals

Conquest Victory Only: 6 Rivals left



Persian Empire:
Immortal replaces Chariot
Apothecary replaces Grocer

Darius:
Financial
Organized


Seems to me that haven't had an OCC challenge for a while...

One of the advantages of the OCC format is you can already see all of the land you are going to be working. The game conditions constrain your victory conditions, so it ought to be possible to pre-game quite a bit of this. So I encourage everybody to think through and share their thoughts on the key strategic ideas before trying them out.

Reload is discouraged, but replay is encouraged, especially if you have contradictory ideas that you want to try out and report on.

Bragging rights to those who land a win without using nukes.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The game speed and difficulty setting were deliberately locked down to make the results comparable, as was the location of the capital.

This particular combination of victory settings is an unfamiliar one - I don't know that the position is winnable. Of course, this didn't stop me from making a few edits to up the difficulty (see spoilers below).

But if it turns out to be too easy to be interesting, then race for fastest victory.

Spoiler confessed edits :

The original start was corn/corn/pigs, so I nerfed it.

The river was extended one tile west to allow a levy in Persepolis, or a water mill on the rice.

Iron and Copper were moved closer to the city.

 

[Thrar]

Looks like lack of hammers will be a big issue here. Even with mining the sheep, 3 hills isn't much, and chariots at 30 cannot be whipped well. I'm curious to see how players will deal with that.

 

[Manco Capac]

Was a bit of surprise when I saw the maker was VoU. I guess there must be some hidden trick just like that all grassland map with Saladin.

 

[Manco Capac]

At monarch, it is simply beeline catas (I'm sure he destroyed any strat. resource around) and kill everyone with them along archers or something stronger like longbows. On monarch, it is doable to do a feudalism slingshot.
Also, if I were to play, I would make my typical choke with one warrior for each close nations...while being careful of those UNITAI_EXPLORE archers, which means a warrior in the capital suffices to scare them.

 

[admtanaka]

I'll give this one a go if I can find the time this week.

 

[GKey]

What? No AW?

 

[The Oz-Man]

Darius isn't really my favorite OCC leader since he's more of a REX-and-afford-it type, and in my experience OCC usually wants farms over cottages. Still, if horses are nearby then Immortals may be able to rein in somebody nearby, and extra health in OCC is never bad.

Thoughts and points of discussion:

* The Five National Wonders - Always a point of contention in an OCC for obvious reasons. NE, GT, Oxford, and IW are almost always no-brainers. For a Conquest-only game, is the HE the right choice? National Park (my usual pick, but I tend to go to space in OCC)?
* When to war - War too early and drop the ball and you give another AI the opportunity to expand and get big. War too late and you run the risk of falling behind. Cuirs and Cavs could probably reign the earth on Monarch, as they usually do... but that's assuming we've got horsies nearby.
* Civics - Rep/Caste/Bureau are the popular OCC choices for obvious reasons (OCC is usually about specialists, specialists, specialists, and a 50% boost to our only city is of course huge). Is this a rare instance when Slavery and Police State are advisable?
* Cottage or Farm? - On the one hand, farm an OCC. On the other hand, Darius and a food surplus, yo.

And two quick questions:

1. What about islands? We can't build boats. Wait for paratroopers?
2. How well will the AI pursue victory if Conquest is its only option? I suspect "not well."

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Was a bit of surprise when I saw the maker was VoU. I guess there must be some hidden trick just like that all grassland map with Saladin.

Four Green Fields <- for those who missed the reference. (Heh, if I had thought of it, I might have gone with the Arabs for the Camel Archers, just to see if anybody remembered they were resourceless.)

No real gimmicks this time, just a straight forward game with no particular advantages to the human player (except, naturally, for having more than dice for brains).

In particular, I didn't take any precautions against a choke. I can think of a few that maybe won't make too much of a mess (giving each AI an extra unit, perhaps) while still forcing the work out of the opening. Maybe next time.

Darius isn't really my favorite OCC leader since he's more of a REX-and-afford-it type, and in my experience OCC usually wants farms over cottages.

Yup - I deliberately gimped you there.

Oz, I think your questions were in the wrong order.

* When to war - War too early and drop the ball and you give another AI the opportunity to expand and get big. War too late and you run the risk of falling behind. Cuirs and Cavs could probably reign the earth on Monarch, as they usually do... but that's assuming we've got horsies nearby.

In particular, I think you badly need to answer this one first. Can you even afford to give the AI enough development time that it can start filling in the holes you open? Or do you just play whack a mole until you can crush everything?

* The Five National Wonders - Always a point of contention in an OCC for obvious reasons. NE, GT, Oxford, and IW are almost always no-brainers. For a Conquest-only game, is the HE the right choice? National Park (my usual pick, but I tend to go to space in OCC)?

My guess is Heroic Epic over Iron Works. Are enough trees going to survive for National Park to be worth it? For that matter, can National Park possibly pay for itself in time?

* Civics - Rep/Caste/Bureau are the popular OCC choices for obvious reasons (OCC is usually about specialists, specialists, specialists, and a 50% boost to our only city is of course huge). Is this a rare instance when Slavery and Police State are advisable?

Nationhood. If you are going to be warring late, you need units. Draft one, produce the other.

1. What about islands? We can't build boats. Wait for paratroopers?

Dang, I do have a reputation. Hope people don't end up too disappointed.

 

[Manco Capac]

Dang, I do have a reputation.

Hey hey hey Do not tarnish your reputation with such low class word, [mon] cher!

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Not really have time for writeup, but in retrospective, I think trying to get a GMerchant to upgrade a bunch of warriors into Axes would have been better.

Spoiler :

Monty, almost crushed.
Mao, nearly dead.
Charlie, under control.
Mehmed, nearly destroyed me before begging a resource trololol.
Next target: Ragnar.

Boy, play time finished. Work again.

EDIT: In fact, that was perhaps too rash to attack that early.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Will play this. Settings seem interesting.
No strategic resource in BFC, uh?

Probably want to war in the Medieval Era (Knights). Maybe in the Renaissance. If this is a 0 resources game even after cultural borders pop several times, then war with Riflemen (+Trebuchets) is the obvious play.

Basic answer to "when to war?": when you are ready to take all 6 opponents in one fell swoop. Take one opponent out and it just makes the others stronger (land to fill). There might be an argument for taking out the tech leader early, so the remaining AIs are as backwards as possible. Dodgy, though.

Note: capital is not a production powerhouse before Replaceable Parts+Communism beef up watermills or before Universal Suffrage gives 1 production to towns.
Upgrading units is probably a wise move.


Are there any encouraged checkpoints for this game?


EDIT: just bugged my save at turn 15. Put 3 alt+s signs to take a screenshot and now... can neither put other signs nor remove those I've placed. Ever happened to anyone? Need I just restart the game from a sane save?

 

[ABigCivFan]

Looks like low production is the biggest issue early on. How about early Math, chop Pyramid -> representation, oracle->CS?

Then early Globe Theater to take care of the happy cap. Lib->Steam power for Levee and take over the world with Cavs.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I went early math and chopped pyramids. Problem was, Oracle was gone by 1720 while I had it sitting at one turn waiting to finish off COL...

I was going to spam all engineer and prophet producing wonders to squeeze a few hammers out of specialists. Production was painful.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Lol, I remember a game with Egypt on monarch/normal/OCC where I won conquest with only war chariots .

But, knowing VoU we might not have horse <3.

If we do have them it's eternal choke spam --> gradually chipping people dead. With defensive bonuses immortals are good for it. No need to do any silly teching or anything if we have horse lol.

Also fun would a full-on cottage game with burcap (oracle CS). I've won UN games like that with OCC on emp and immortal, so putting up enough tech in this one shouldn't be too bad. We can't use air power though...hmm.

Problem with cavalry wars in OCC is that your ability to produce them decently quickly is gimped and the attrition is very painful. It's not like you have 9 cities to whip down in slavery.

 

[Manco Capac]

I went early math and chopped pyramids. Problem was, Oracle was gone by 1720 while I had it sitting at one turn waiting to finish off COL...

I was going to spam all engineer and prophet producing wonders to squeeze a few hammers out of specialists. Production was painful.

Choke the pink nation as it is often the cause of early Oracle. Religion in or not, that leader will stumble on Oracle sooner or later.

 

[Snaaty]

nice idea, dragged me back to civ and to give it a shot

...

1690 it was for me, no idea if that is good or bad. didnt choke, simply didnt come up with this idea in an occ game (not too much exerience with the occ format overall)

i will do a bit of a writeup once more players have finished

in the spoiler the pic before taking the last city (zoomed out, so not much spoiler, but better save then sorry i guess)

Spoiler :

View attachment 342102

i was soooooo happy when i did find it finally

 

[ABigCivFan]

Great finish date Snaaty!

Give this a try. Since we have plenty of food and very low hammers, I decided to chop/whip Oracle -> MC (1800BC) to bring Forge online early for whips. Then I whipped Forge and ran an Engineer to boost the chance for a GE. Hurried Pyramid.

Later whipped GL at 250BC, HG (for GE gpp), Globe theater at 275AD (transition from HR to Representation).

With Forge and running OR, each forrest = 45 , each pop=22.5 whipping great wonders, 33.75 whipping early national wonders (globe, NE, HE), and 45 whipping any other buildings.

Will prob stop whipping after Oxford.

 

[Grashopa]

Here is my start at 925 BC.

Spoiler :

Fishing wheel pottery mining BW writing oracle. One rice farm then cottages + mined sheep. 2nd worker timed with BW for pre chopping... Goal is to get the cottages in + civil service so the oracle was monarchy for happiness then straight for CS.

Next up is getting the Oxford in asap...

 

[Grashopa]

When do the AIs get alphabet on monarch?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

When do the AIs get alphabet on monarch?

Around 1AD, maybe?
EDIT: got it 525 BC in my try.

@Your game:

Spoiler :

Whoah! Interesting hammer-light approach. I wouldn't have believed it could be so efficient.
Did you chop without Maths/Org Rel? Looking closer, hammers seem to be missing.
Could you make up for the cost of Fishing? Seems like a very strange choice of tech to me. Also might bite you later, since Fishing will place Compass in your Great Scientists bulb list...