October 2020 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Noble Zarkon]

Hmm...is that a nerf or a buff ?

It's a disappointing nerf - means their strength gains from Free City units are limited now.

 

[Gedemon]

Anyone know where in the database the "no spying on alliances" thing is coded?

@Laurana Kanan maybe?

Seems to be hardcoded...

Can't see a reference in the diff, seems hardcoded indeed.

 

[pokiehl]

Can't see a reference in the diff, seems hardcoded indeed.

Well that's frustrating. What a shame.

 

[steveg700]

My opinion, exactly. Allies just don't really sabotage each other... Gamewise, it seems interesting to me to be able to spy science, steal great works. Maybe even sabotage spaceports, since it's pretty much the only defense you've got
VS Science victory.

In that scenario, it may just be an incentive to stop allying with that civ.

The thing is, I play almost all my games on huge maps 12 civs. So, no, it's NOT like standard map where you can be allies with just everyone. You have to choose the 5 you want. Also, the choice is not entirely yours, since the only
bonus from being allied is Trade Route bonuses, and some civs will simply be too far for your trade routes to reach.

Alliances provide bonuses not related to trade routes, especially when they level up, and certainly they can be more motivating. I will happily strike religious or military alliances with distant civ's, for instance.

I don't understand why they took time to make this fix that I've never really heard asked for here on civfan, and NOT work on stopping your allies to declare war on the CSses which you are suzerain. How can you block science syping
but not attacking my allied city-stated ? Very weird to me

Can't say with authority here, but the reason that AI civ's attack CS's is that they seem programmed to regard any CS they can't suzerain to be an expansion opportunity. And the AI seems to have a problem with branching away from its logic branches when they aren't panning out. That's why sometimes they just stop expanding. They can't pull of what their logic is telling them to do, so they're just stuck.

So until they can address that appetite for consuming CS's, they can't apply an ally-specific fix.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Anyone know where in the database the "no spying on alliances" thing is coded?

@Laurana Kanan maybe?

Seems to be hardcoded...

Can't see a reference in the diff, seems hardcoded indeed.

I don't see anything either, so yeah likely hardcoded.

 

[steveg700]

The most distressing thing here is really that no real changes were made to Secret Societies.

This a good idea that's not really well-implemented. Forget all the fuss about vampires. Cultists just pile up in AI civ cities, which saves players from screaming bloody murder. Of course, players are happy to abuse cultists themselves, but should the AI start to actually use them it'll become evident how broken it is to have a unit that can freely suck away 10 loyalty, unconditionally.

And there are still four free governor promotions. So, it's not something to play with strategically. It's more of a novelty mode.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

Remember when the player was actually given "options" of when to turn things on and off (for example, the now no spying on allies thing)? The fact that it is hardcoded with no xml switch on/off is just bizarre.

Oh well, I haven't played with spies for years in my games anyway, the whole mechanic seems to be broken. If you want to stop the runaway from winning, well, that's what a military is for.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'm sorry, but what the actual?

How does making an exception to Ejercito for Commandante Generals actually substantially nerf/fix either of those broken mechanics?

(And, how does making CGs slower than every other unit make any flavorful sense?)

This has to be trolling. It's so much a non-change it's practically an anti-change. I'm not mad, I'm just baffled.

 

[pokiehl]

I'm sorry, but what the actual?

How does making an exception to Ejercito for Commandante Generals actually substantially nerf/fix either of those broken mechanics?

(And, how does making CGs slower than every other unit make any flavorful sense?)

This has to be trolling. It's so much a non-change it's practically an anti-change. I'm not mad, I'm just baffled.

That's not what they did. Previously they gave +1 movement to nearby units. That's what's gone.

 

[AsH2]

Still no pathfinding issue fix.. ARGH! *hits snuff box and sets sail*

 

[PhoenicianGold]

That's not what they did. Previously they gave +1 movement to nearby units. That's what's gone.

Ohhhh I misread. Well that helps a bit, but still doesn't seem to directly address either problem.

 

[Piranga]

So just played the pirates scenario. Tried playing single player. (I don't like civ multiplayer) All three AI's lost their starting ship in the first 20 turns.


What a garbage game mode. Just a pure waste of developers time. I would have preferred if they scrapped this game mode back in brainstorming and spent what ever effort they did on making less disappointing patch changes to the main game.

 

[steveg700]

I'm sorry, but what the actual?

How does making an exception to Ejercito for Commandante Generals actually substantially nerf/fix either of those broken mechanics?

(And, how does making CGs slower than every other unit make any flavorful sense?)

This has to be trolling. It's so much a non-change it's practically an anti-change. I'm not mad, I'm just baffled.

Um, haciendas are now affected by droughts. Problem solved.

Look, these people have better things to do than facilitate gameplay, like figuring out how to shoehorn more MP modes into an overwhelmingly predominantly single-played game.

 

[Myomoto]

I think the spy/ally change is honestly the worst change they've ever put in the patch notes. Completely out of left field, and basically demolishes either the usefulness of alliances or spies late game...

 

[GenyaArikado]

Idk why do they refuse to actually balance previous Civs anymore

 

[Palo]

I wish they would've added one thing instead (although no spying on allies, IMO, is a good change).
No longer able to declare war on city states if the suzerain is an ally

Either that or cause it to trigger a betrayal emergency.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

Idk why do they refuse to actually balance previous Civs anymore

See, this is what modders used to do. But since they don't let the modders have their tools, we will not get balance.

 

[pokiehl]

See, this is what modders used to do. But since they don't let the modders have their tools, we will not get balance.

That's just not true. Please don't spread misinformation.

I'm a modder and I've actually made the largest mod yet rebalancing all the civs (Civilizations Expanded). Rebalancing Civilizations or adding new Civs is relatively trivial. It's not just me - you also have the Better Balanced Game series of mods that rebalances all civs.

The SDK is robust and even includes a 3d asset viewer. The Modifier system is far for more flexible than the database methods of Civ 5.

Modders do not have access to the dll which would open up more possibilities (like deeper AI modding or adjustments to the game core) but this isn't really brought up in the lense of balance.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

That's just not true. Please don't spread misinformation.

I'm a modder and I've actually made the largest mod yet rebalancing all the civs (Civilizations Expanded). Rebalancing Civilizations or adding new Civs is relatively trivial. The SDK is robust and even includes a 3d asset viewer. The Modifier system is far for more flexible than the database methods of Civ 5.

Modders do not have access to the dll which would open up more possibilities (like deeper AI modding or adjustments to the game core) but this isn't really brought up in the lense of balance.

What misinformation? There is no dll released, and most of the problems with game play are inside that dll. You should know this if you are a modder. For example, trying to make the AI declare more wars in the later eras. No matter what values are put into the xml, it affects very little.

The dll has everything to do with the lens of balance in the long term. Everything else is a temporary fix.

 

[Daigotsu Max]

Just because there was no balance changes for previous Civs in this patch, doesn't mean there won't be some further down the road. There are several patches left to come for NFP.