Offshot From Writing/Alphabet Discussion

[os79]

Hello,

I want to something that came to my mind after reading that discussion about writing and alphabet. I realized that "Alphabet" was too Western-centric because, let's face it, the eastern Asians had not ever needed alphabetic writing to succeed in their developments. In fact, some of them may even argue the benefits their writing system gives them and they would be right.

Of course, EVERY writing system has and had weaknesses as is inevitable with human beings in this "imperfect" universe. So I have a different proposal for future versions.

What about changing Writing and Alphabet names to Symbolism and Written Languages, respectively?

Would that be more fair and respectful to all civs?

 

[climat]

Finally, we got a new thread about it
I am satisfied with current Writing/Alphabet, though..

Hmm... It's just my idea. How about putting "Pictograph" before Trade?
(Pictograph -> Trade -> Writing -> Alphabet)

 

[frekk]

What about changing Writing and Alphabet names to Symbolism and Written Languages, respectively?

Would that be more fair and respectful to all civs?

Well ... maybe not. I believe some of the Asiatic scripts are not dependant on language; that is, you could, theoretically, read them without understanding or learning the language of the writer; except that the grammar and so on might render them illegible. But the characters themselves can be readily understood. The Japanese script, though it expresses a different language, uses most of the same symbols as the Chinese script to mean the same (or very close) things. Such is the nature of a logographic system.

I think what might be more accurate is to go from Symbolism to Writing, with Symbolism meaning what "writing" does now, and Writing meaning what "alphabet" does now.

 

[os79]

@Climat

Well, it still is too Western-centric but still up for discussion.

@Frekk,

Yes, that is my point too. Good twist there .

 

[Afforess]

(Pictograph -> Trade -> Writing -> Alphabet)

Good idea, but maybe something more generic.

Trade -> Oral Tradition -> Symbolism -> Alphabet

 

[Naphthous]

I believe some of the Asiatic scripts are not dependant on language; that is, you could, theoretically, read them without understanding or learning the language of the writer; except that the grammar and so on might render them illegible. But the characters themselves can be readily understood. The Japanese script, though it expresses a different language, uses most of the same symbols as the Chinese script to mean the same (or very close) things. Such is the nature of a logographic system.

They would, indeed, be unintelligible. Even if you could guess that the character for mountain meant "mountain" (one of the easiest guesses among Chinese characters) you would not get much further. They really are logographic, not pictographic. Without knowing the spoken language, you'd be lost—I'd venture you could more easily learn English with no audio than Chinese or Japanese (English delineates words and has very few characters).

"[T]he characters themselves can be readily understood," if referring to Chinese characters, is a laughable statement—sorry. And personally I don't know of another Asian logographic/pictographic writing system. I know of several that aren't, which makes me think there isn't one.

I vote for Writing and Standardized (or Systematic) Writing for improved tech names.

 

[Naphthous]

I think the best way to go with this, if you wanted to go far enough, would be to implement languages as an organically spreading overlay, much like religion or culture. Language could affect your ability to trade, your relationships, and so on.

An alternate route would be to implement it as a sort of civic, where you ultimately choose between philosophically equal options (syllabary versus alphabet, and so on, much like Free Market versus Communism). But I like my first idea better.

 

[frekk]

"[T]he characters themselves can be readily understood," if referring to Chinese characters, is a laughable statement—sorry. And personally I don't know of another Asian logographic/pictographic writing system. I know of several that aren't, which makes me think there isn't one.

Well, not for English speakers certainly, because the languages are so vastly different. But Mandarin, Wu, Min, and Cantonese, though mutually unintelligible verbally, all use the same script and read it just fine. So it is not truly dependant on language or a written form of any one particular language.

It would be a similar story if you had all the Romance languages in Europe using a logographic system. Although Spanish and French would still be mutually unintelligible when spoken, they would usually be able to read each other's writing without much problem.

 

[Hyronymus]

When you were born, did you know how to speak, how to read and how to write? No, but what was the first thing you did learn from then on? In my case it was first speach, then reading and finally writing. For speach you need an alphabet too, albeit a phonetic one that only "lives" inside your head. Up to the moment that you learn to read and write you have no clue whatsoever what a letter does.

 

[Abraxis]

I agree with Frekk and os79 here. Whether Asian characters are pictographic or not, we certainly know Mayan hieroglyphs are.

The Mayans barely even had a set system. It was just a bunch of symbols that evoked specific ideas for anyone living in that culture, with that state of mind. There was only a very basic and loose character set. The artists were free to modify, or change hieroglyphs with the same logical meaning based on the tone or theme they were trying to convey.

The idea was more important than the definition, like staring at a canvas or reading/listening to literally unintelligible poetry (I.E. most of the Chili pepper's Lyrics).

Alphabets and whatnot, were a necessary replacement for symbolism as a means of communication as societies grew and it became necessary for people of totally different backgrounds and states of mind to accurately communicate.

Symbolism gave birth to alphabet, and still remains a purer form of communication, manifesting these days in all forms of art.

There is an enormous distinction and cultural relevance in the two in my opinion and I wouldn't mind seeing both in the game.... if it makes it more fun

Also Naphthous' idea about the languages is genius.

 

[frekk]

For speach you need an alphabet too, albeit a phonetic one that only "lives" inside your head.

You're confusing the map with the territory. An alphabet is just a set of symbols that represent phonemes. The alphabet is not the phonemes, it's just a representation of them. You need the phonemes to speak, but you don't need the alphabet.

Not all writing systems are based on phonemes, as an alphabet is. Some are based on syllables, others on morphemes, others on whole words, and some are combinations of these things.

 

[frekk]

I agree with Frekk and os79 here. Whether Asian characters are pictographic or not, we certainly know Mayan hieroglyphs are.

Actually the Mayan script was not just a pictographic script. It, too, has a syllabary that can be used to pronounce sounds (in this case syllables), not just whole words. The symbols can represent a morpheme or a syllable, more or less like Asian scripts.

Also it was somewhat standardized. There was scope for some artistry in drawing the symbols, but not like in a true pictographic system. In a true pictographic system, to say "bird", you just draw a bird. This isn't how it's done in the Mayan script. Here's an example of how it works. Note how the symbol for dog or bird isn't a pictograph of a dog or bird at all, but rather two joined symbols for sounds, that don't really look like anything:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/maya_spelling_1.gif

 

[Abraxis]

okay, Egyptian hieroglyphs than

Or if we really want to go back, cave paintings.

If you had a crazy mammoth hunt with your tribe's mates. There was no need to make up a bunch of obscure symbols to represent the experience. You just draw a bunch of stick figures killing a mammoth and everyone in the tribe will look at it and remember the whole experience, possibly worth a thousand words. It's not until you want to describe it to some dude from a tribe a couple miles away that you need to establish some a standardized written language, and having evolved from symbolism, a fusion of symbolism and alphabet, like hieroglyphs is the natural first step.

Pacal for example, who's actual name is still unknown I'm pretty sure, wasn't represented as some symbols for Pa and Cal thrown together. He was a face with a funny head-dress they associated with him.

but in any case, check out this nova special on Mayan language, it's pretty neat.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/mayacode/program.html

 

[frekk]

Pacal for example, who's actual name is still unknown I'm pretty sure, wasn't represented as some symbols for Pa and Cal thrown together. He was a face with a funny head-dress they associated with him.

His name was K'iniich Jaanab Pacal. The "face with the funny head-dress" isn't a written form of his name; it's just a picture of him, and isn't writing any more than Caesar's face on a Roman coin is writing.

His name was written, though, and this is how it was spelled:



It can be written slightly differently. Here's an example:



Note that the symbol on the right in the latter one is the same as the symbol in the former, except it lacks K'iinich (and ka and la are assembled horizontally, rather than vertically).

 

[johny smith]

I just saw this thread by chance and after reading it I am confused what is asked to be done.

Spoken language is just silly to try to put in Civ if that is the idea. That is way too damn old to even relate to the game timeline as for a tech thing. Maybe you can not speak to a civ because you don't have a translator that makes sense. Spoken language is pre-Homo Sapien.

But as for written language you can see the history of writing for them all really. I don't mean as in going an making a tech for each and every language, but the history of written language is not a big mystery. I tried to make some generic techs in my uncivilized tech tree.

 

[frekk]

But as for written language you can see the history of writing for them all really. I don't mean as in going an making a tech for each and every language, but the history of written language is not a big mystery. I tried to make some generic techs in my uncivilized tech tree.

The OP is saying that 'alphabet' is Western-centric, because the Asian scripts are not alphabets and never used a writing system based on phonetics (neither, I think, is the Islamic script). Yet they were technologically superior for most of the history, excepting the last 5 centuries or so.

The point of the thread, I think, is to try and decide if there would be some more generic term to use in place of alphabet, to represent the more advanced scripts like the Roman alphabet or the Chinese script.

 

[Naphthous]

Well, not for English speakers certainly, because the languages are so vastly different. But Mandarin, Wu, Min, and Cantonese, though mutually unintelligible verbally, all use the same script and read it just fine. So it is not truly dependant on language or a written form of any one particular language.

It would be a similar story if you had all the Romance languages in Europe using a logographic system. Although Spanish and French would still be mutually unintelligible when spoken, they would usually be able to read each other's writing without much problem.

Yes, they use the same characters and therefore can make out things in writing, but the language they "hear" is still Mandarin, Wu, Min, Cantonese, or whatever dialect they speak. The point is the symbols are still tied to sounds, and without those sounds they wouldn't be comprehensible.

And the romance languages are largely mutually intelligible in writing. Even as a native English speaker, I can basically read French and Spanish, though I can barely speak them.

The question that you are really pondering is not whether writing systems are logographic or alphabetic, but whether languages are in the same family or unrelated.

 

[Naphthous]

His name was K'iniich Jaanab Pacal. The "face with the funny head-dress" isn't a written form of his name; it's just a picture of him, and isn't writing any more than Caesar's face on a Roman coin is writing.

His name was written, though, and this is how it was spelled:
...

That stuff is really cool—seriously, thanks.

 

[Carwyn]

Somehow I missed the basic discussion behind this thread, perhaps I'll find it later. I do think that we need to realize this is a game, it is not a life (I know hard to fathom), and it's perfectly ok to use names that mean something for most of the players. This isn't some sort of political science or foreign negotiations, its just a game! The names of the techs, to me, are just markers for the basic idea of what you are trying to research and aren't all that important. I'm more interested in the results of the research and how it affects my game play and what to research for the most effective way to make money, fight wars and gain advantage over my neighbors!

I'd had to see all the MOD energy wasted in what to call a tech when it could be put towards making a better game play experience. I'd rather have a MOD that is very stable, works for multiplayer and is complete and playable before I'd worry about small details (yes, I realize you can fine tune the names of techs without interfering with anything important). So, have fun discussing, but remember the broader perspective is that people play this MOD because it is fun, challenging and usually works pretty darn well!

 

[frekk]

Yes, they use the same characters and therefore can make out things in writing, but the language they "hear" is still Mandarin, Wu, Min, Cantonese, or whatever dialect they speak. The point is the symbols are still tied to sounds, and without those sounds they wouldn't be comprehensible.

Sort of. Not all the symbols are sounds, though, and in early versions of the script, there was no syllabary at all. Many - most - of the symbols are morphemes, which are independant of sound, though often still related to language because of the ways they are combined.

This is completely unlike an English reader understanding bits and pieces of French because the words sound very similar. A word in Wu and Cantonese can, sometimes, be written the same way and understood by both, even if the word as spoken is totally different and unrelated.

And you can learn it, to some degree, without learning the language. Not very well, but it's possible to a degree. You'll never be able to understand the syllabary, but you could understand the morphemes (and written passages are composed mainly of morphemes, and morpheme combinations, not syllabic sounds). The only problem is that it's very hard, because instead of intuitively understanding the way morphemes are combined to create new words, you have to memorize the character combinations. There are courses and software to help you do this, though, for instance:

http://hanzim.com/