Or, in Oliver Stone's case, just flat-out making stuff up. Such as how he disproved the "magic bullet" theory by changing the seating positions in JFK's car.
Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States
- Thread starter Murky
- Start date
Meanwhile, back at the original topic...
I saw the first episodes of the multi-part documentary. I can't believe he's been working on this since 2010 and still didn't manage to do a better job scrubbing out his cartoonishly Stalinist leanings. Who even knew there were still Stalinists alive not living in seedy bars on the outskirts of Moscow?
I think it's great that he's bringing attention to the fact that the Soviet Union did the lion's share of the fighting in the war. That's a good thing. So is his coverage of American capital investment in Germany during the 20s & 30s--although he makes it sound like that was the only place Americans were investing, which is a considerable distortion.
But his ridiculous take on Stalin, "just biding his time" in making an alliance with Germany against Poland, skipping over all the millions that Stalin deliberately and negligently allowed to starve to death, ignoring the paranoid nature of life under totalitarian Sovietism... it simply undermines all the fresh light his documentary does. This is Revisionism of the ugliest kind, covering up the humanitarian nightmares of a monster like Stalin is the hallmark of someone who doesn't want to reveal the "untold" parts of history, just slap a fresh whitewash over the ideological arguments of the losing side.
My advice to any viewers of this show is take it all with a grain of salt, read the several "debunking" articles out there on the series, and then google "oliver stone jew media" to get a flavor of the kind of paranoid & conspiratorial delusions that guide Stone's take on history. Don't get me wrong, I actually like him as a filmmaker. Both his Nixon and Dubya Bush movies were even-handed, humanistic, and close to spot on in capturing the sort of twisted moral characters that get into the White House.
I saw the first episodes of the multi-part documentary. I can't believe he's been working on this since 2010 and still didn't manage to do a better job scrubbing out his cartoonishly Stalinist leanings. Who even knew there were still Stalinists alive not living in seedy bars on the outskirts of Moscow?
I think it's great that he's bringing attention to the fact that the Soviet Union did the lion's share of the fighting in the war. That's a good thing. So is his coverage of American capital investment in Germany during the 20s & 30s--although he makes it sound like that was the only place Americans were investing, which is a considerable distortion.
But his ridiculous take on Stalin, "just biding his time" in making an alliance with Germany against Poland, skipping over all the millions that Stalin deliberately and negligently allowed to starve to death, ignoring the paranoid nature of life under totalitarian Sovietism... it simply undermines all the fresh light his documentary does. This is Revisionism of the ugliest kind, covering up the humanitarian nightmares of a monster like Stalin is the hallmark of someone who doesn't want to reveal the "untold" parts of history, just slap a fresh whitewash over the ideological arguments of the losing side.
My advice to any viewers of this show is take it all with a grain of salt, read the several "debunking" articles out there on the series, and then google "oliver stone jew media" to get a flavor of the kind of paranoid & conspiratorial delusions that guide Stone's take on history. Don't get me wrong, I actually like him as a filmmaker. Both his Nixon and Dubya Bush movies were even-handed, humanistic, and close to spot on in capturing the sort of twisted moral characters that get into the White House.
r16
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the documentary is now on Turkish TV , last night Wallace lost the nomination of the Vice Presidency to Truman .
now . ı believe the concept of jet bombers carrying nuclear weapons was first mooted in a conference in Rome in 1935 . This Wallace guy , of whom ı had heard nothing before might have a real swell dude but he was cheated out of what he deserved because the Rich were after a global class war against Socialism is wrong , to put it mildly . Wallace would have dropped the bomb , too . And to suggest Truman was a simpleton also falls short , considering he was the head honcho , leading the commission named after him , in the re-arranging of the scenery for the emergence of this so called American Empire , where the US "Defence" industry was to provide the tools . For dominance by terror .
the Cold War didn't start because Truman's Ma put girls' clothes on him . The only deviatiton from the expectations -of Americans in particular- was the survival of the Red Army , in their millions of troops and dozens and dozens of tank divisions . Even if hunger was just around the corner ... To imply Roosevelt was a high principled idealist and Truman was the means the Rich stole the World Peace , makes it just possible that this is paid propaganda . Or at least this well developed method of self satisfaction of the American Liberal Elites , without whose failures the American Right could never thrive in its multitude of ways and stuff . Al Gore led Democrats to put Dabya to the White House and he re-paid by using Bill Clinton as a hand towel in Haiti . Laying the stones and paving the road for a glorious partizan action against on how the two Bushes destroyed the chances and euphoria of the end of the Cold War , Stone still does a good job , even if it's not exactly the whole truth .
now . ı believe the concept of jet bombers carrying nuclear weapons was first mooted in a conference in Rome in 1935 . This Wallace guy , of whom ı had heard nothing before might have a real swell dude but he was cheated out of what he deserved because the Rich were after a global class war against Socialism is wrong , to put it mildly . Wallace would have dropped the bomb , too . And to suggest Truman was a simpleton also falls short , considering he was the head honcho , leading the commission named after him , in the re-arranging of the scenery for the emergence of this so called American Empire , where the US "Defence" industry was to provide the tools . For dominance by terror .
the Cold War didn't start because Truman's Ma put girls' clothes on him . The only deviatiton from the expectations -of Americans in particular- was the survival of the Red Army , in their millions of troops and dozens and dozens of tank divisions . Even if hunger was just around the corner ... To imply Roosevelt was a high principled idealist and Truman was the means the Rich stole the World Peace , makes it just possible that this is paid propaganda . Or at least this well developed method of self satisfaction of the American Liberal Elites , without whose failures the American Right could never thrive in its multitude of ways and stuff . Al Gore led Democrats to put Dabya to the White House and he re-paid by using Bill Clinton as a hand towel in Haiti . Laying the stones and paving the road for a glorious partizan action against on how the two Bushes destroyed the chances and euphoria of the end of the Cold War , Stone still does a good job , even if it's not exactly the whole truth .
Core Imposter
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Henry Wallace was a communist. Everyone knew that.
Frankly, I don't think he cared much about detail on the internal politics of the Soviet Union, given its a history of the United States.
If by "communist" you meant to the left of McCarthy, then yes.
Huh, I thought you'd call him a traitor, not a communist, since, you know, he started as a Republican.
r16
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part 3 , The Bomb . It had a "suitable for 13 years and older" warning sign at its start , probably justified as well .
it keeps harping on Roosevelt's idealism , as proven by his calls on the warring sides to avoid bombing cities . For a man who said the borders of the US was on the Rheine , it's quite understandable in 1939 . Germans are supposed to have tens of thousands of bombers ; they will win a war of city busting in a breeze . Hence they have to be reminded that Uncle Sam and its dozens of Flying Fortresses are right there to smack Adolf . If he doesn't behave . And so wins the war , before Washington gets in . Whatever ...
dresden gets a little mention . More on it could possibly look like German apologism , with Harris and his thing about German bands and shepherd girls . Something that even Churchill couldn't cover up with the eloquence he is famous for . And not much on how a British only effort to teach some respect to Russians who were increasingly dismissive of London was joined by Americans . To clear the route for the use of nukes on civilian targets and steal some British glory , lest incoming Russian troops be too much impressed by British firepower alone . The said troops would be at the end of some march , started from the suburbs of Moscow and every city , some 2000 of them , resembled Dresden after the final vestiges of Wehrmacht were driven out ; nothing new nothing novel in destroyed buildings . There would be a operation Clarion in March '45 where 9000 Allied aircraft was sent to strafe German trucks and trains , hopeful that Russians would take notice this time ... One would have hoped for such "co-operation" at -say- Schweinfurt .
that Fuchs was spying for Britain can not be elaborated upon , ı agree .
the claim that the US casualties would total 30 000 and not 250 000 in an invasion of Japan must be relevant only to the initial landings , though this must have already much commented on .
it was interesting to hear that out of 7 flag rank American officers with 5 stars , 6 opposed the nuking of Japan . Who was for it , ı couldn't catch it . It must be relevant to the needs of post-war drawdown for conventional forces , a desperate campaign for preservation of force structures . That apart it is , that US Military downplaying the effects of the Atomic weapons , is kinda interesting . This whole re-start of bombing on August 12 and the fact the superb US didn't need nukes to kill people . With its freakin' backbreakin' awesomestly inspirin' Conventional capability .
and naturally the unavoidable thing with the glorious scientists of the Manhattan Project -who had apparently promised apple sized full capacity bombs by the end of 1943 ... Who still claimed to deliver , within 3 years of 1945 , something that equals 7000 Hiroshimas . That's if translators to Turkish language didn't mix it all up . Yeah , which must be 100 Megatons in a single package and even the Tsar Bomba fell a bit short , and that was in ? The baseless self-confidence in scientists can be truly astronomical .
it keeps harping on Roosevelt's idealism , as proven by his calls on the warring sides to avoid bombing cities . For a man who said the borders of the US was on the Rheine , it's quite understandable in 1939 . Germans are supposed to have tens of thousands of bombers ; they will win a war of city busting in a breeze . Hence they have to be reminded that Uncle Sam and its dozens of Flying Fortresses are right there to smack Adolf . If he doesn't behave . And so wins the war , before Washington gets in . Whatever ...
dresden gets a little mention . More on it could possibly look like German apologism , with Harris and his thing about German bands and shepherd girls . Something that even Churchill couldn't cover up with the eloquence he is famous for . And not much on how a British only effort to teach some respect to Russians who were increasingly dismissive of London was joined by Americans . To clear the route for the use of nukes on civilian targets and steal some British glory , lest incoming Russian troops be too much impressed by British firepower alone . The said troops would be at the end of some march , started from the suburbs of Moscow and every city , some 2000 of them , resembled Dresden after the final vestiges of Wehrmacht were driven out ; nothing new nothing novel in destroyed buildings . There would be a operation Clarion in March '45 where 9000 Allied aircraft was sent to strafe German trucks and trains , hopeful that Russians would take notice this time ... One would have hoped for such "co-operation" at -say- Schweinfurt .
that Fuchs was spying for Britain can not be elaborated upon , ı agree .
the claim that the US casualties would total 30 000 and not 250 000 in an invasion of Japan must be relevant only to the initial landings , though this must have already much commented on .
it was interesting to hear that out of 7 flag rank American officers with 5 stars , 6 opposed the nuking of Japan . Who was for it , ı couldn't catch it . It must be relevant to the needs of post-war drawdown for conventional forces , a desperate campaign for preservation of force structures . That apart it is , that US Military downplaying the effects of the Atomic weapons , is kinda interesting . This whole re-start of bombing on August 12 and the fact the superb US didn't need nukes to kill people . With its freakin' backbreakin' awesomestly inspirin' Conventional capability .
and naturally the unavoidable thing with the glorious scientists of the Manhattan Project -who had apparently promised apple sized full capacity bombs by the end of 1943 ... Who still claimed to deliver , within 3 years of 1945 , something that equals 7000 Hiroshimas . That's if translators to Turkish language didn't mix it all up . Yeah , which must be 100 Megatons in a single package and even the Tsar Bomba fell a bit short , and that was in ? The baseless self-confidence in scientists can be truly astronomical .
r16
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the start of the Cold War :
run of the mill political slant . And ı so dislike Dabya that ı can't stand him seeing time after time . Even when it only repeats how low his ratings were .
ı was kinda hoping from the previous episode (with the Tu-16 footage in it ) that this one would have something about the nuclear war of 1955 . Discussing the nuking of Japan with clips of Russian jet bombers not yet even on the drawing boards wouldn't make much sense otherwise .
it all rests on the assumption that the Soviet Union wouldn't be able to produce a nuclear weapon and planes to carry it before a decade ; which then would be the right pretext for a pre-emptive strike , people forgetting the rigours of '45 , too . So , 1949 ?
it is Fuchs again . And the assesment of 10 years is entirely correct , if you take that he was spying for Britain and the US was already on the case , blackmailing the UK with financial doom unless Uranium reserves were surrendered . Though ı admit ı haven't yet studied that era fully . The outbreak of Korea , the NATO thingie and the basic fact that London said Uncle are some of ther reasons that the vice was loosened .
as for the Russians they decided in 1947 that the data was correct and what they were thinking in '45 , ı don't know . Might because that they knew Fuchs' work was passed on as a false lead , might have led to total rejection . Wikipedia says no on the matter , but nobody is ever perfect . The kid was right about the Hydrogen bomb , too .
a bit unfair on Hollywood . Art has always served who pays . ı was certainly lost when the clip of Martians landing was on , it seemed so perfect for the denizens of the Red Planet to paint their stuff in Red , until this next day ı remembered Wells probably described the cylinders as Silver , they are certainly Whitish in a relevant Civ III scenario .
that apart , it takes real guts to come and talk , if one is not already marked and cornered , hence cognizant that there is nothing to loose by action , if inaction will not -in any case- save you from the clutches of Edgar J. Hoover , the cross-dresser .
run of the mill political slant . And ı so dislike Dabya that ı can't stand him seeing time after time . Even when it only repeats how low his ratings were .
ı was kinda hoping from the previous episode (with the Tu-16 footage in it ) that this one would have something about the nuclear war of 1955 . Discussing the nuking of Japan with clips of Russian jet bombers not yet even on the drawing boards wouldn't make much sense otherwise .
it all rests on the assumption that the Soviet Union wouldn't be able to produce a nuclear weapon and planes to carry it before a decade ; which then would be the right pretext for a pre-emptive strike , people forgetting the rigours of '45 , too . So , 1949 ?
it is Fuchs again . And the assesment of 10 years is entirely correct , if you take that he was spying for Britain and the US was already on the case , blackmailing the UK with financial doom unless Uranium reserves were surrendered . Though ı admit ı haven't yet studied that era fully . The outbreak of Korea , the NATO thingie and the basic fact that London said Uncle are some of ther reasons that the vice was loosened .
as for the Russians they decided in 1947 that the data was correct and what they were thinking in '45 , ı don't know . Might because that they knew Fuchs' work was passed on as a false lead , might have led to total rejection . Wikipedia says no on the matter , but nobody is ever perfect . The kid was right about the Hydrogen bomb , too .
a bit unfair on Hollywood . Art has always served who pays . ı was certainly lost when the clip of Martians landing was on , it seemed so perfect for the denizens of the Red Planet to paint their stuff in Red , until this next day ı remembered Wells probably described the cylinders as Silver , they are certainly Whitish in a relevant Civ III scenario .
that apart , it takes real guts to come and talk , if one is not already marked and cornered , hence cognizant that there is nothing to loose by action , if inaction will not -in any case- save you from the clutches of Edgar J. Hoover , the cross-dresser .
r16
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ı missed the start of the episode with the Ike ; stuck on a huge pangea . ı usualy play average maps and as such never really feel a need to join the mad settling rush . Naturally on this scale it hurts .
when ı turned the TV on , the French were just about to lose Indochina . There can't be much surprise in the fact that the US bore 80% of the cost of that war , considering it was their standart move in their war against Communism . And it was cheaper , too . For the amount of money needed to field 10 or 100 American troops , they could have 334 Turkish ones , if ı remember that correctly . And it was to be forever . ı do remember a newspaper article from late 1980s that compared the soldiers of the two countries . By the year 2000 we would have nice shoes and thermally insulated clothing -Goretex , wasn't that called ?- and Americans would have jetpacks individually distributed ...
this who pays the money chooses the tune aspect also explains how the US decided Vietnam was ripe and France could now lose . Paris lost and packed the bags to go home , while Saigon accepted a new master , where the things were to go essentially the same .
on this account , that the France was dependant on the Americans leads to further things on my part . ı don't think it's any kind of radical or something in 2013 to say Dien Bien Phu was intentionally choosen by the French as an airfield too far , a plum juicy target that would fall to Communist hordes . Without timely and meaningful support . To prevent a magnificient victory for the Red propaganda , America would have save France by making Russia and China stop supporting the Viet Minh . The names of the French strongholds around the airstrip are always reported to be the names of the mistresses of de Castries , the French Colonel in command . Actually , they don't have to be . Lots of Americans had lots of fun time in the City of Light during WW2 .
ı really think there's something with the Turkish translation of the series . See , it's almost dogmatic for me : The French asked for intervention , spesifically by B-29s carpet bombing the enemy entrechments around Dien Bien Phu , starting from the Chinese manned AD guns . Doesn't matter , whether Americans planned to use 3 nukes or not , Ike turned it down . Mentioning some two brigades of MiG-17s that meet them B-29s over there , even if those two brigades were kinda a figment of imagination . America wanted a French defeat , they wouldn't fight a sea of Chinese human waves ...
this whole Military-Industrial Complex deal must better be discussed with Kennedy ; and maybe ı will see the whole episode as well .
when ı turned the TV on , the French were just about to lose Indochina . There can't be much surprise in the fact that the US bore 80% of the cost of that war , considering it was their standart move in their war against Communism . And it was cheaper , too . For the amount of money needed to field 10 or 100 American troops , they could have 334 Turkish ones , if ı remember that correctly . And it was to be forever . ı do remember a newspaper article from late 1980s that compared the soldiers of the two countries . By the year 2000 we would have nice shoes and thermally insulated clothing -Goretex , wasn't that called ?- and Americans would have jetpacks individually distributed ...
this who pays the money chooses the tune aspect also explains how the US decided Vietnam was ripe and France could now lose . Paris lost and packed the bags to go home , while Saigon accepted a new master , where the things were to go essentially the same .
on this account , that the France was dependant on the Americans leads to further things on my part . ı don't think it's any kind of radical or something in 2013 to say Dien Bien Phu was intentionally choosen by the French as an airfield too far , a plum juicy target that would fall to Communist hordes . Without timely and meaningful support . To prevent a magnificient victory for the Red propaganda , America would have save France by making Russia and China stop supporting the Viet Minh . The names of the French strongholds around the airstrip are always reported to be the names of the mistresses of de Castries , the French Colonel in command . Actually , they don't have to be . Lots of Americans had lots of fun time in the City of Light during WW2 .
ı really think there's something with the Turkish translation of the series . See , it's almost dogmatic for me : The French asked for intervention , spesifically by B-29s carpet bombing the enemy entrechments around Dien Bien Phu , starting from the Chinese manned AD guns . Doesn't matter , whether Americans planned to use 3 nukes or not , Ike turned it down . Mentioning some two brigades of MiG-17s that meet them B-29s over there , even if those two brigades were kinda a figment of imagination . America wanted a French defeat , they wouldn't fight a sea of Chinese human waves ...
this whole Military-Industrial Complex deal must better be discussed with Kennedy ; and maybe ı will see the whole episode as well .
r16
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the episode with the JFK and the brink he took the world . With some assistance from Khruschev . Oliver Stone knows he wouldn't get away with presenting the Kennedy saga as one of 100% clean people wronged by the American Right and the like . As such the narrative of JFk becomes one of a reformed man after experience , maturing on the job . Which was to cost his life in the end .
comparisions with Ike are inevitable . Eisenhower , despite the previous episode in the series , was softer and amenable to make deals , even with the Reds ; the Kennedy Administration in contrast was solely formed to transform the Defence business to the benefit of select corporations .
ike's penchant for more nukes was based on realistic observations to the nature of contemporary technology , in addition to a certain amount of lust for atoms . Physical capabilities of weapon systems were unmatched by the "controls" related to various aspects of finding , recognizing and engaging . This was especially true of aircraft as discovered in Korea . Trying to fight a "conventional" war with the available tech of the 50s and early 60s would have been ineffective .
all the rant by the US Military about the restrictive Rules of Engagement as imposed by the White House during combat operations non-withstanding , Vietnam showed the limitations . The Guided Weapons Revolution took quite a time to be realized .
in any case the American nukes were just an update of battleships of yore , when Brittania ruled the waves . Not be used against a peer , but as a mental instrument to scare lessers to comply ; lest they meet their doom at the hands of economic strangulation -enforced with allies of London on the ground and by the RN on the seas . It was the turn of Washington to be respected and have the desires satisfied , fair or unfair , logical or rather dead than accepting . Hence the need for incredible expense on the nukes , with a ceiling of numbers that ensured everybody else remained a lesser .
conventional re-armament would one day follow when the American nuclear arsenal could take any conceivable war-breaker . Eisenhower's warning about the Military Industrial Complex just about marks the time the American nuclear inventory was "impossible" and Ike had provided some good times to the American people by being somewhat frugal with the Defence outlay . Even risking a political backlash in the public opinion , with the Sputnik , being aware that the Russian lead in ICBMs , hence satellite launches was temporary . Kennedy on the other hand was all for more , he would also have a race to the Moon .
one must indeed remember the Kennedy that one day would become the President of the United States was killed on a B-17 "cruise missile" . A programme which Kennedy , Ambrassador to London had his son placed intentionally . Tech leads the way militaries go and there is money , hence power in that ...
am indeed lazy , and must rant on Vietnam after seeing the Johnson trying to go Ike and finding his face plastered with all sorts of eggs .
comparisions with Ike are inevitable . Eisenhower , despite the previous episode in the series , was softer and amenable to make deals , even with the Reds ; the Kennedy Administration in contrast was solely formed to transform the Defence business to the benefit of select corporations .
ike's penchant for more nukes was based on realistic observations to the nature of contemporary technology , in addition to a certain amount of lust for atoms . Physical capabilities of weapon systems were unmatched by the "controls" related to various aspects of finding , recognizing and engaging . This was especially true of aircraft as discovered in Korea . Trying to fight a "conventional" war with the available tech of the 50s and early 60s would have been ineffective .
all the rant by the US Military about the restrictive Rules of Engagement as imposed by the White House during combat operations non-withstanding , Vietnam showed the limitations . The Guided Weapons Revolution took quite a time to be realized .
in any case the American nukes were just an update of battleships of yore , when Brittania ruled the waves . Not be used against a peer , but as a mental instrument to scare lessers to comply ; lest they meet their doom at the hands of economic strangulation -enforced with allies of London on the ground and by the RN on the seas . It was the turn of Washington to be respected and have the desires satisfied , fair or unfair , logical or rather dead than accepting . Hence the need for incredible expense on the nukes , with a ceiling of numbers that ensured everybody else remained a lesser .
conventional re-armament would one day follow when the American nuclear arsenal could take any conceivable war-breaker . Eisenhower's warning about the Military Industrial Complex just about marks the time the American nuclear inventory was "impossible" and Ike had provided some good times to the American people by being somewhat frugal with the Defence outlay . Even risking a political backlash in the public opinion , with the Sputnik , being aware that the Russian lead in ICBMs , hence satellite launches was temporary . Kennedy on the other hand was all for more , he would also have a race to the Moon .
one must indeed remember the Kennedy that one day would become the President of the United States was killed on a B-17 "cruise missile" . A programme which Kennedy , Ambrassador to London had his son placed intentionally . Tech leads the way militaries go and there is money , hence power in that ...
am indeed lazy , and must rant on Vietnam after seeing the Johnson trying to go Ike and finding his face plastered with all sorts of eggs .
r16
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the episode with LBJ , Nixon and the war in Vietnam opens with a reference the Greeks , but falls short to include troubles in the Mediterranean that distracted the White House at the time ; they exist to prove Johnson was not a great believer in Democracy or respect to people . This poster is inclined to discuss that seperately .
my Lai gets a mention , fully and deficient at the same time . Johnson was no stranger to cloak and dagger work . At WW2 he was involved in a fact finding mission where his plane "developed" engine trouble and his aide was shot down by the Japanese ; American propensity to increase public awareness and National Unity by finding out non-existant foreign influences who target defenders of Liberty is such a regular , but Johnson's case was not particularly well played out , compounded by his flight crew's apprehension about facing Zeros for no good in 1942 . In any case , My Lai is a theme that would fit with Nixon and his Mad Man approach , for the deed was filmed in gory detail .
continueing with Nixon , there is such a limited discussion of how he "betrayed" the US in the 1960s by forcing the South Vietnamese to decline the deal when Hanoi was ready for a peace agreement . This must be related to the notion that the entire narrative is one that the White House is a tool and a cover for Merchants of Death who thrive on agony of others . That one of the Merchants could use the tools of oppression as in illegal surveillance on a different one must somehow diminish the impact of the negative aspects Stone aims to stress ...
cut short because it might prove the Merchants of Death was not a monolithic block , but competitors in influence , and all that influence brings . Similarly this poster feels it would have been proper to stress that Nixon could bomb the North so hard in 1972 only because of the Easter Offensive ; which was a corollary , in a small percentage , of the competition between China trying to break its isolation and the Soviet Union , which was about to lose Egypt in that time frame with both sides somehow pushing the North Vietnamese on with false assurances about the American resolve . Which certainly wasn't there in 1975 .
it is not because Nixon was a harder man , even if the screening at the White House made Johnson so sick that he gave up running for a second term while Nixon ordered its distribution around . Despite the poster's presence in a foreign language forum that has career anti-Americanists as celebrities , it's undeniable that the US has still men of honour who would refuse helping the association of their country with such acts on US Federal Funding for Intelligence . Johnson deserves better , especially in view of the claims that Bush I had regular footage of bayonet practice on pregnant women from South America in the days he was running the CIA .
apart those , also smaller things including the footage of F-15s early in the episode ; they would be at least a decade in the future for the timeframe . Stone's cinematic reputation certainly requires a difference from regular TV programmers ; in Turkey every single frame supporting Ankara's righteousness in the flying rights over the Aegean and just how wrong the Greeks were would show Greek jets and their HUD images with Turkish planes right on center , defeated by the Greeks . Unless of course there is something else Mr.Stone wants to tell ; this poster feels he is not doing good enough , if this is the intention .
my Lai gets a mention , fully and deficient at the same time . Johnson was no stranger to cloak and dagger work . At WW2 he was involved in a fact finding mission where his plane "developed" engine trouble and his aide was shot down by the Japanese ; American propensity to increase public awareness and National Unity by finding out non-existant foreign influences who target defenders of Liberty is such a regular , but Johnson's case was not particularly well played out , compounded by his flight crew's apprehension about facing Zeros for no good in 1942 . In any case , My Lai is a theme that would fit with Nixon and his Mad Man approach , for the deed was filmed in gory detail .
continueing with Nixon , there is such a limited discussion of how he "betrayed" the US in the 1960s by forcing the South Vietnamese to decline the deal when Hanoi was ready for a peace agreement . This must be related to the notion that the entire narrative is one that the White House is a tool and a cover for Merchants of Death who thrive on agony of others . That one of the Merchants could use the tools of oppression as in illegal surveillance on a different one must somehow diminish the impact of the negative aspects Stone aims to stress ...
cut short because it might prove the Merchants of Death was not a monolithic block , but competitors in influence , and all that influence brings . Similarly this poster feels it would have been proper to stress that Nixon could bomb the North so hard in 1972 only because of the Easter Offensive ; which was a corollary , in a small percentage , of the competition between China trying to break its isolation and the Soviet Union , which was about to lose Egypt in that time frame with both sides somehow pushing the North Vietnamese on with false assurances about the American resolve . Which certainly wasn't there in 1975 .
it is not because Nixon was a harder man , even if the screening at the White House made Johnson so sick that he gave up running for a second term while Nixon ordered its distribution around . Despite the poster's presence in a foreign language forum that has career anti-Americanists as celebrities , it's undeniable that the US has still men of honour who would refuse helping the association of their country with such acts on US Federal Funding for Intelligence . Johnson deserves better , especially in view of the claims that Bush I had regular footage of bayonet practice on pregnant women from South America in the days he was running the CIA .
apart those , also smaller things including the footage of F-15s early in the episode ; they would be at least a decade in the future for the timeframe . Stone's cinematic reputation certainly requires a difference from regular TV programmers ; in Turkey every single frame supporting Ankara's righteousness in the flying rights over the Aegean and just how wrong the Greeks were would show Greek jets and their HUD images with Turkish planes right on center , defeated by the Greeks . Unless of course there is something else Mr.Stone wants to tell ; this poster feels he is not doing good enough , if this is the intention .
r16
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the episode the True America kinda returns . In the form of Reagan .
first of all , Americans did not trick Russians into Afghanistan to destroy them . Attriting the other by proxy warfare was the norm in the Cold War allright , but there was no concerted US effort to make it Russia's Vietnam and the reason for demise . These things happen only when it's done and history boks can be written with hindsight . It was rather a hope that this great American success in Iran would cause increased enthuasism to trouble Russians internally and they would be distracted by Iran as an exporter of Islamic Radicalism . Afghanistan was actually welcomed by Washington as a diversion of effort ; those guys that would become the Northern Alliance would be enough to act as a buffer and all anything Pakistan could cook with the Pashtuns , with American and Saudi backing .
reagan the Great Communicator , is a play of words that would stress his great belief in that he was chosen to fight the Great Fornicator and his actions kinda showed it . American Right's inaction against the AIDS Epidemic in belief that it was cleasing provided by God should have been mentioned ; at least ı didn't hear it , perhaps because it doesn't relate to 21st Century that much , with those vaccines and drugs in action .
also not fully revealing in relation to the SDI . It's "nice" to claim Reagan was a nutjob that refused total Nuclear Disarmament by a phantasy of a Shield in Space and it would even be possible to explain that he supported the programme as a defence against Alien invasion -and ı don't mean one by Mexican Immigrants- was simply a theatrical piece to get some Nerdy Geek support for further enrichment of the American Defence Industry . Reagan was like totally immersed in Heavens to be personally involved in the launching of Challenger when NASA reported it would be too cold . I hear this is a bigger scandal compared to Contras-Irangate , but then those people were so jaded when it came to American support for thescum of the world , er , Freedom Fighters ...
but then Reagan was also an Human Being and he was politician enough to take advantage of the Soviet offers for downgrading the Cold War . Not because they were bankrupt but they were just about to start their own Revolution in Military Affairs . One where they could -for the first time since 1940-41- field a Force that could defeat an invasion . It was the Russian failures that dissolved the SU but then it is hard to see what else could have happened . When one applies too much pressure for control , it's not easy to calm down . Soviets had relied too much on power , they lost when it seemed they would lose .
first of all , Americans did not trick Russians into Afghanistan to destroy them . Attriting the other by proxy warfare was the norm in the Cold War allright , but there was no concerted US effort to make it Russia's Vietnam and the reason for demise . These things happen only when it's done and history boks can be written with hindsight . It was rather a hope that this great American success in Iran would cause increased enthuasism to trouble Russians internally and they would be distracted by Iran as an exporter of Islamic Radicalism . Afghanistan was actually welcomed by Washington as a diversion of effort ; those guys that would become the Northern Alliance would be enough to act as a buffer and all anything Pakistan could cook with the Pashtuns , with American and Saudi backing .
reagan the Great Communicator , is a play of words that would stress his great belief in that he was chosen to fight the Great Fornicator and his actions kinda showed it . American Right's inaction against the AIDS Epidemic in belief that it was cleasing provided by God should have been mentioned ; at least ı didn't hear it , perhaps because it doesn't relate to 21st Century that much , with those vaccines and drugs in action .
also not fully revealing in relation to the SDI . It's "nice" to claim Reagan was a nutjob that refused total Nuclear Disarmament by a phantasy of a Shield in Space and it would even be possible to explain that he supported the programme as a defence against Alien invasion -and ı don't mean one by Mexican Immigrants- was simply a theatrical piece to get some Nerdy Geek support for further enrichment of the American Defence Industry . Reagan was like totally immersed in Heavens to be personally involved in the launching of Challenger when NASA reported it would be too cold . I hear this is a bigger scandal compared to Contras-Irangate , but then those people were so jaded when it came to American support for the
but then Reagan was also an Human Being and he was politician enough to take advantage of the Soviet offers for downgrading the Cold War . Not because they were bankrupt but they were just about to start their own Revolution in Military Affairs . One where they could -for the first time since 1940-41- field a Force that could defeat an invasion . It was the Russian failures that dissolved the SU but then it is hard to see what else could have happened . When one applies too much pressure for control , it's not easy to calm down . Soviets had relied too much on power , they lost when it seemed they would lose .
r16
not deity
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 11,219
the very New World Order episode .
will Mr. Stone please sue the Turkish channel that airs his documentary ? For claiming Yaser Arafat , under Soviet pressure , renounced all forms of terrorism , tacidly recognizing ... Iran ?! Dead simple actually . We in Turkey must not hear anything that might infer the current Turkish Foreign Policy designed to save people in the Middle east might look odd , if even Palestinians seem ready to accept the status quo . Present day media will not be troubled at all , adjusting to any change in posture . Afterall , media and a condition of lacking spine are nearly synonimious .
a quite large segment on the relationship between American Big Business and the Nazi Germany . Charging companies for maintaining business until December 41 declarations of war is not a proper thing perhaps , considering the said companies have sinned much further . In that they still do business with the US Goverment ... Indeed claiming those firms remained in Germany until 1942 weakens the impact of those who remained beyond 1942 . This poster incidentally once penned a letter to Newsweek , to get a feeling for such kind of stuff , mentioning that Ford and ITT won compensation from the US Goverment which had bombed their factories in Nazi occupied Europe and IBM's Singelfinden facility was protected by RAF's Master Bomber on the mission -a director of the company in peacetime- by drawing the concentrations away from the factory . The answer was a nice "Thank you , but yours does nor deserve publication." postcard .
ross Perot's dealings with Washington and the profits and a whisper that a Federal Investigation was just about to be cleared would not make it to this Documentary , for it would cheapen the legacy of Clinton ; it's widespread that his later successes surprised many who had started only with a motto of "Read my Lips, no more Bush" . And to be fair the guy "didn't have sex with that woman" ; in the Oval Office . Don't ask . It's just adding some "cool-factor" to the travails of a media circus .
which was expected somewhat earlier after the downturn the US intervention in Somalia took . By graphic demonstration that he had lost the advantages of Reagan's victory in the Cold War . Either Bush II wasn't ready yet or Cheney would rather prefer the comparative seclusion of the Vice-Presidency instead of the clamour of a run for White House , which inevitably requires more contact with the masses , the common people .
the course America took after Glasnost was almost pre-destined , the presentation of that process as a wrong turn taken by uncapable US Administrations doesn't serve the truth . The only reason America would agree complete abolishing of intermediate range Nuclear weapons was not a belief in a better and more to the point shared future but it was an area the Soviets were ahead . This poster is yet to hear a single deal the US follows to the letter unless they are watched over ; and it's no surprise to hear the Russians feel lied to , with the expansion of NATO right onto their door-step .
yet it was something totally new to hear - indeed a surprise to hear that Bush II was briefed about the possible plane high jackings and he responded to the CIA official by saying he had now saved his own skin . Jerrah was certainly sure that the entire operation was limited to his team and in the heyday before "facts" took over , it was commonly reported in the open Media that he asked for the flight crew to be brought back to the cockpit , just before either people rolled or the ANG F-15 finally caught up . Will possibly see GWB in his full glory of reading Billie the Goat , next week ... His presentation as a fool always bugs this poster . He is rather of the type that the Turkish proverb aptly describes ; such ignorance is only possible with a through education .
regarding performance by such US officials the two acts of Colin Powell do not really match . That he defined the "battle-hardened Iraqi Army" in 1991 and that he "lied" to UN about the WMD in Iraq . In that the first case had an "international consensus" of sorts . The amazing feat of arms by the US Military would be a justification for the dire straits the USSR was now to go through . The Oligarchs to come were already chosen and the coup attempt that nailed Gorbachov's authority was not even a last ditch attempt by Russians who loved their country . Any lesser American success in Kuwait might have meant more opposition ; the Russian advisors to Saddam were "excellent" on that count and the CNN provived tempting proof that even the Red Army would be lunch for the Capitalists ...
will Mr. Stone please sue the Turkish channel that airs his documentary ? For claiming Yaser Arafat , under Soviet pressure , renounced all forms of terrorism , tacidly recognizing ... Iran ?! Dead simple actually . We in Turkey must not hear anything that might infer the current Turkish Foreign Policy designed to save people in the Middle east might look odd , if even Palestinians seem ready to accept the status quo . Present day media will not be troubled at all , adjusting to any change in posture . Afterall , media and a condition of lacking spine are nearly synonimious .
a quite large segment on the relationship between American Big Business and the Nazi Germany . Charging companies for maintaining business until December 41 declarations of war is not a proper thing perhaps , considering the said companies have sinned much further . In that they still do business with the US Goverment ... Indeed claiming those firms remained in Germany until 1942 weakens the impact of those who remained beyond 1942 . This poster incidentally once penned a letter to Newsweek , to get a feeling for such kind of stuff , mentioning that Ford and ITT won compensation from the US Goverment which had bombed their factories in Nazi occupied Europe and IBM's Singelfinden facility was protected by RAF's Master Bomber on the mission -a director of the company in peacetime- by drawing the concentrations away from the factory . The answer was a nice "Thank you , but yours does nor deserve publication." postcard .
ross Perot's dealings with Washington and the profits and a whisper that a Federal Investigation was just about to be cleared would not make it to this Documentary , for it would cheapen the legacy of Clinton ; it's widespread that his later successes surprised many who had started only with a motto of "Read my Lips, no more Bush" . And to be fair the guy "didn't have sex with that woman" ; in the Oval Office . Don't ask . It's just adding some "cool-factor" to the travails of a media circus .
which was expected somewhat earlier after the downturn the US intervention in Somalia took . By graphic demonstration that he had lost the advantages of Reagan's victory in the Cold War . Either Bush II wasn't ready yet or Cheney would rather prefer the comparative seclusion of the Vice-Presidency instead of the clamour of a run for White House , which inevitably requires more contact with the masses , the common people .
the course America took after Glasnost was almost pre-destined , the presentation of that process as a wrong turn taken by uncapable US Administrations doesn't serve the truth . The only reason America would agree complete abolishing of intermediate range Nuclear weapons was not a belief in a better and more to the point shared future but it was an area the Soviets were ahead . This poster is yet to hear a single deal the US follows to the letter unless they are watched over ; and it's no surprise to hear the Russians feel lied to , with the expansion of NATO right onto their door-step .
yet it was something totally new to hear - indeed a surprise to hear that Bush II was briefed about the possible plane high jackings and he responded to the CIA official by saying he had now saved his own skin . Jerrah was certainly sure that the entire operation was limited to his team and in the heyday before "facts" took over , it was commonly reported in the open Media that he asked for the flight crew to be brought back to the cockpit , just before either people rolled or the ANG F-15 finally caught up . Will possibly see GWB in his full glory of reading Billie the Goat , next week ... His presentation as a fool always bugs this poster . He is rather of the type that the Turkish proverb aptly describes ; such ignorance is only possible with a through education .
regarding performance by such US officials the two acts of Colin Powell do not really match . That he defined the "battle-hardened Iraqi Army" in 1991 and that he "lied" to UN about the WMD in Iraq . In that the first case had an "international consensus" of sorts . The amazing feat of arms by the US Military would be a justification for the dire straits the USSR was now to go through . The Oligarchs to come were already chosen and the coup attempt that nailed Gorbachov's authority was not even a last ditch attempt by Russians who loved their country . Any lesser American success in Kuwait might have meant more opposition ; the Russian advisors to Saddam were "excellent" on that count and the CNN provived tempting proof that even the Red Army would be lunch for the Capitalists ...
r16
not deity
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 11,219
the episode with the Star Wars ... movies . While it's true that there has been so much discussion on the reach of American power in the 21st Century so far , the First Galactic Empire is something beyond even the dreams of American Strategists . Even if Palpatine's work is as fictitious as the eternal American staying power. Despite all the gloom Oliver Stone presents ; with dire warnings on an Iron Curtain approach to up and coming China ..
he does have hope , with the likes of Wikileaks in the forefront . All that has been achieved by those so called whistleblowers is the soul darkening butcher's bill of the Arabian Spring . Supposed to break out in Jordan , though the chance encounter in Tunisia served the designs admirably in the easy democratic transformation that was achieved . Egypt was undecided only until the Islamic Brotherhood had to make a choice between a leader that was fully acceptable to the American interests and a Civil War that would take away the chance of dominating the country which seemed to be within grasp . Thus Mübarek fell and Libya showed what might have happened and Syria still shows the same . Arabian Spring is yet to break into America's friends and solutions are actually the reasons and the problems , in the finest tradition of Hollywood script writing .
this poster feels that he must have missed mention of the post-9/11 meeting where directors and producers were invited by the White House to discuss the risks and what to do's of the new era in American handling of threats to "security" .
internet offers anything with a click of a link . It was the sight of Mr Stone's name on the cover that led to the download of a .pdf file and it's still unknown what did Hefner's magazine have against Sondra Greenberg's face , twice . Reading the interview this poster was once again reminded Oliver Stone was involved with the Midnight Express . It must have been almost 20 years that the movie was shown on Turkish TV channels , the only image that remains in mind is the one where the inmate is visited by his girlfriend . This poster must say that his country is still not civilized enough to offer soundproof glass partitions and phone connections for such prison visits , but it's also possible that it is some kind of a daydream on part of the inmate . Reading some dozen pages it is easy to surmise Mr. Stone has had enough taste of life to travel quickly between real and not so real , leading to vivid fabrication at times .
though there is not much grounds to doubt the quite negative portrayal of Obama's actions , which do fall short of his words . The American President keeps the US in the path of Bush II , way better that McCain might have achieved . The Vietnam vet afterall knows a couple of things on the true nature of America , right in the lines of Stone has been exposing . Full confidence that nothing could have happened to right people , he would scare the hell of pilots lined after him for a turn in the catapult , with exhaust tricks , McCain did learn that invulnerability of WASPs extented to engagements on carrier decks and he alone was transferred , instead of the firing squads the Russians would have brought out . McCain knows what America is , a bunch of frat boys above the law . He would have tried to do same , the unstoppable expansion of the US , with a little more honour and vigour , instead of cut throat proxies . But than such proxies are the American tradition and it fell to McCain to be the proxy to enable Obama the breather , the spring break between the Neo-Con Crusades .
it was so good a play that Obama wonan Oscar a Nobel for Peace ...
he does have hope , with the likes of Wikileaks in the forefront . All that has been achieved by those so called whistleblowers is the soul darkening butcher's bill of the Arabian Spring . Supposed to break out in Jordan , though the chance encounter in Tunisia served the designs admirably in the easy democratic transformation that was achieved . Egypt was undecided only until the Islamic Brotherhood had to make a choice between a leader that was fully acceptable to the American interests and a Civil War that would take away the chance of dominating the country which seemed to be within grasp . Thus Mübarek fell and Libya showed what might have happened and Syria still shows the same . Arabian Spring is yet to break into America's friends and solutions are actually the reasons and the problems , in the finest tradition of Hollywood script writing .
this poster feels that he must have missed mention of the post-9/11 meeting where directors and producers were invited by the White House to discuss the risks and what to do's of the new era in American handling of threats to "security" .
internet offers anything with a click of a link . It was the sight of Mr Stone's name on the cover that led to the download of a .pdf file and it's still unknown what did Hefner's magazine have against Sondra Greenberg's face , twice . Reading the interview this poster was once again reminded Oliver Stone was involved with the Midnight Express . It must have been almost 20 years that the movie was shown on Turkish TV channels , the only image that remains in mind is the one where the inmate is visited by his girlfriend . This poster must say that his country is still not civilized enough to offer soundproof glass partitions and phone connections for such prison visits , but it's also possible that it is some kind of a daydream on part of the inmate . Reading some dozen pages it is easy to surmise Mr. Stone has had enough taste of life to travel quickly between real and not so real , leading to vivid fabrication at times .
though there is not much grounds to doubt the quite negative portrayal of Obama's actions , which do fall short of his words . The American President keeps the US in the path of Bush II , way better that McCain might have achieved . The Vietnam vet afterall knows a couple of things on the true nature of America , right in the lines of Stone has been exposing . Full confidence that nothing could have happened to right people , he would scare the hell of pilots lined after him for a turn in the catapult , with exhaust tricks , McCain did learn that invulnerability of WASPs extented to engagements on carrier decks and he alone was transferred , instead of the firing squads the Russians would have brought out . McCain knows what America is , a bunch of frat boys above the law . He would have tried to do same , the unstoppable expansion of the US , with a little more honour and vigour , instead of cut throat proxies . But than such proxies are the American tradition and it fell to McCain to be the proxy to enable Obama the breather , the spring break between the Neo-Con Crusades .
it was so good a play that Obama won
r16
not deity
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 11,219
for all its worth as a reference , the guy who dubbed the documentary in Turkish was in the news last week . It was widely reported in Turkey and got into a a little cozy talking point for the goverment dudes that the Belgian Police questioned him for 20 minutes in some airport asking how much money he had on him and what was the reason of his visit to country and so on . He personally claims he was singled out , for being a "Türk ve Müslüman" .. He hosts the "Who wants to be a Millionaire" ; ı don't ever remember seeing him out of a suit and he is not even Brown ... It is quite regular to make heroes out of nothing , but whatever .
plastiqe
Grinch
Thank goodness somebody put this thread back on the series instead of the JFK movie. Yer all as bad as you claim Stone to be when you mix the two up.
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r16 it's a little difficult for me to follow your reviews since I haven't just seen the episodes. It's been a while since I've seen them but I liked the series because I guess you could say I'm a fan of American Politics. I'd never heard of people like Wallace.
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For the earlier comments in the thread about how Stalin is glossed over... if you actually watched the episodes there are references made by Stone to the brutality of his regime. It's just that the series is about American History so rightly so it focuses on America. And more to the point, Stalin's brutality is already widely known.
I like this pro-series quote that deals with facts:
"This has been fact checked by corporate fact checkers, by our own fact checkers, and fact checkers [hired] by Showtime. It's been thoroughly vetted...these are facts, our interpretation may be different than orthodox, but it definitely holds up."
As opposed to this anti-series quote that offers opinion and reminds me of Fox news:
"Over and over, Stone uses the same quotations, the same arrangements of material, and the same arguments as Marzani. This is not to accuse Stone of plagiarism, only to point out that the case he now offers as new was argued in exactly the same terms by an American Communist and Soviet agent in 1952."
I like this quote too:
At a time when historical instruction is being deemphasized in favor of other, more testable disciplines, we have committed ourselves to resisting that unfortunate trend. In doing so, we jettison the well-worn dates and names approach to teaching history that so many students abhor. Instead, we believe that historical instruction should allow students to experience, as best they can, the same conflicts that earlier generations had to grapple with.
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r16 it's a little difficult for me to follow your reviews since I haven't just seen the episodes. It's been a while since I've seen them but I liked the series because I guess you could say I'm a fan of American Politics. I'd never heard of people like Wallace.
*****************************************************
For the earlier comments in the thread about how Stalin is glossed over... if you actually watched the episodes there are references made by Stone to the brutality of his regime. It's just that the series is about American History so rightly so it focuses on America. And more to the point, Stalin's brutality is already widely known.
I like this pro-series quote that deals with facts:
"This has been fact checked by corporate fact checkers, by our own fact checkers, and fact checkers [hired] by Showtime. It's been thoroughly vetted...these are facts, our interpretation may be different than orthodox, but it definitely holds up."
As opposed to this anti-series quote that offers opinion and reminds me of Fox news:
"Over and over, Stone uses the same quotations, the same arrangements of material, and the same arguments as Marzani. This is not to accuse Stone of plagiarism, only to point out that the case he now offers as new was argued in exactly the same terms by an American Communist and Soviet agent in 1952."
I like this quote too:
At a time when historical instruction is being deemphasized in favor of other, more testable disciplines, we have committed ourselves to resisting that unfortunate trend. In doing so, we jettison the well-worn dates and names approach to teaching history that so many students abhor. Instead, we believe that historical instruction should allow students to experience, as best they can, the same conflicts that earlier generations had to grapple with.
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