On democracy promoting the voting power of citizens

[Joij21]

Huh? There’s a long-existing trend towards greater intelligence in earth’s evolutionary history.

No there's not. Bacteria to this day are still the most successful organisms on the planet and make up most of the biomass. They have no brains, are single celled, and reproduce asexually Yet many of them can survive in environments multicellular organisms cannot. It's their ability to breed rapidly that has made them able to adapt to a myriad of environments without not ever having to require a consciousness, let alone any semblance of intelligence to do so.

Also, there are many multicellular organisms such as plants and fungi who never need to so much as move from the spot in which they were born. They have no brains either, nor do they need to since plants suck up near plentiful solar radiation, and fungi eat dead stuff that can't struggle back.

The point is intelligence is overrated and something that only our species actually values and finds important. Otherwise, you would expect plants, fungi, and bacteria to all grow brains and eyeballs if there really was such a trend or else, they would go extinct. Yet we still see them alive today.

Oh, and every little animal and creature alive today would most likely have built their own mini civilizations which we would be competing against. Cats, and dogs would be able to speak to you in plain English and any that could not, would have gone extinct a long time ago.

 

[Rg339]

No there's not. Bacteria to this day are still the most successful organisms on the planet and make up most of the biomass. They have no brains, are single celled, and reproduce asexually Yet many of them can survive in environments multicellular organisms cannot. It's their ability to breed rapidly that has made them able to adapt to a myriad of environments without not ever having to require a consciousness, let alone any semblance of intelligence to do so.

Also, there are many multicellular organisms such as plants and fungi who never need to so much as move from the spot in which they were born. They have no brains either, nor do they need to since plants suck up near plentiful solar radiation, and fungi eat dead stuff that can't struggle back.

The point is intelligence is overrated and something that only our species actually values and finds important. Otherwise, you would expect plants, fungi, and bacteria to all grow brains and eyeballs if there really was such a trend or else, they would go extinct. Yet we still see them alive today.

Oh, and every little animal and creature alive today would most likely have built their own mini civilizations which we would be competing against. Cats, and dogs would be able to speak to you in plain English and any that could not, would have gone extinct a long time ago.

You’re assuming a fast timescale. That isn’t necessary for a general trend towards greater intelligence to exist. Sea scorpions weren’t as smart as dinosaurs, who were not as smart as mammals. Brain to body mass ratios have been generally increasing all throughout the fossil record.

 

[innonimatu]

Oh damn, I should resist jumping into yet another time-consuming thread. But but...

Democracy has a scale problem but some portions of that problem are not obvious. Distance from the government and problems of representation are the obvious stuff. But there's worse.

I think I complained many times already that the EU has been sinking Europe because it ended what had been uniquely advantageous to that continent: the political fragmentation and the freedom to experiment and tune that came from it.
In terms of politics, large polities strangle dissent. Real dissent, the one actually persecuted. Not the weak-souce managed opposition every place ends up having. In the old Europe one could insult the queen of z, organize a referendum for independence from y, or even plot to place bombs in z to destabilize the local government, safely in another country. They were separate enough that no extradition treaties applied. This did not necessarily had to happen, it could happen, and that was enough to make governments thread carefully or else. It was a more violent time, this past of Europe fragmented, but even during that violent time, under aristocratic rule or under different voting schemes that left most of the population powerless, democracy made steady gains because people fought for it and governments (representing the local oligarchies) were scared and had to concede. That was how a modicum of democracy was built.

Large polities create political classes who do not feel threatened. The only opposition allowed is the managed opposition, within the existing system. Dissenters are either strangled of resources or thrown in jail, the outside for the ones exiled are very far away indeed, without influence.

 

[citizenofdoom]

Bacteria to this day are still the most successful organisms on the planet and make up most of the biomass.

You seem to take biomass as a scale for development.
Others would take energy consumption.
Is an obese middle income person more successful than a rich person with fitness?
-------------------
Oh and you take bacterias versus homo sapiens sapiens
Unfair

 

[Samson]

I think the metrics of democracy from the University of Würzburg are a reasonable start for what we are talking about:

Political Freedom as Free Self-Government of Citizens

The dimension of freedom is anchored in the free self-government of citizens in a political community. Self-government involves the transfer of individual preferences by way of the choice of political decision-makers in free and fair elections and, furthermore, the possibility of continuous political participation, which is structured within the framework of the public sphere via competing intermediate organisations. The political participation of citizens is guaranteed by the existence of civil and political rights. Furthermore, popular sovereignty implies that the elected representatives are also in fact the possessors of political power and use the latter in such a way that individual rights are respected.

Political Equality as Legal Equality of Treatment and Fair Participation in Political Decisions

The dimension of equality is understood as political equality, which, on the one hand, includes a fair formal equality of treatment of citizens by the state (legal egalitarianism) and, on the other hand, facilitates the opportunity for all citizens to participate in the relevant formal democratic institutions in a fair and effective way (input egalitarianism). Whereas the dimension of freedom treats the possibility of free participation in the political system in an active sense, the dimension of equality deals with equal access to these rights. Do all citizens have the possibility to make use of their political and civil rights in a fair and effective way? Talk here is thus of equality in the sense of equal treatment as a passive component.

Political and Legal Control as Political and Legal Oversight of the Government

Whereas the dimension of freedom gives expression to the preferences of individual citizens and organised interests, in the dimension of political and legal control, the actions of these agents are now directed toward the monitoring of government activity. Such oversight applies to both the government and the elected officeholders. Vertical and horizontal accountability are to be included in the definition of the dimension of control. Control takes place by way of the political participation of citizens or intermediary organisations in the political sphere or the sphere of civil society or via media, which expose violations of the rule of law in the public sphere and, if necessary, undertake legal measures. It occurs, above all, by way of the official oversight instances within the network of governmental and para-governmental institutions. The sole standard of legal control is that government action respects the rule of law.​

 

[Samson]

The main limiting factor for advanced AI and robotics is their heavy dependency on the availability of rare earth metals and noble gases like helium.

Just FYI, if you are hoping that scarce rare earths used to make transistors will save us from the techno apocalypse you may be out of luck:

Crystalline order offers access to high speeds for organic transistors

A transistor fabricated from the crystalline phase of an organic semiconductor material could provide a path to improved switching speeds — rivalling those of devices built from inorganic materials such as silicon.
​

Spoiler Legend :

A high-speed transistor structure made from an organic semiconductor material. a, Wang et al. fabricated a bipolar junction transistor (a type of transistor that is suitable for high-power and high-frequency applications) from layers of an organic semiconductor material known as rubrene. The semiconductors are p-type (where positive charges dominate), n-type (negative charges dominate) or i-type (for intrinsic, where neither dominates) and are arranged in three terminals known as the emitter, base and collector. Device performance requires that the mobility of positive charges (indicated by the arrows) is high in both the p-type and n-type layers, because mobility sets the speed of the current. This is, however, challenging to achieve in organic materials. b, Wang et al. engineered their device from a crystalline template of rubrene to achieve higher carrier mobilities. Subsequent rubrene layers in the device are expected to follow the same crystalline phase.

 

[citizenofdoom]

Just FYI, if you are hoping that scarce rare earths used to make transistors will save us from the techno apocalypse you may be out of luck:

Crystalline order offers access to high speeds for organic transistors

A transistor fabricated from the crystalline phase of an organic semiconductor material could provide a path to improved switching speeds — rivalling those of devices built from inorganic materials such as silicon.
​

Spoiler Legend :

A high-speed transistor structure made from an organic semiconductor material. a, Wang et al. fabricated a bipolar junction transistor (a type of transistor that is suitable for high-power and high-frequency applications) from layers of an organic semiconductor material known as rubrene. The semiconductors are p-type (where positive charges dominate), n-type (negative charges dominate) or i-type (for intrinsic, where neither dominates) and are arranged in three terminals known as the emitter, base and collector. Device performance requires that the mobility of positive charges (indicated by the arrows) is high in both the p-type and n-type layers, because mobility sets the speed of the current. This is, however, challenging to achieve in organic materials. b, Wang et al. engineered their device from a crystalline template of rubrene to achieve higher carrier mobilities. Subsequent rubrene layers in the device are expected to follow the same crystalline phase.

Wow, Idk that even exists.
My hypothesis was that human is some kind of intelligence system.
And that intelligence system which can be built from un-rare resource exists.
Then probably humans can create an intelligence system from those un-rare resources.
Didn't know they had created that.

 

[PhroX]

Claims of organic crystal based transistors remind me of Jan Hendrik Schon, so I'm kinda skeptical. Although, thinking more about it, that might actually mean these discoveries are more likely to be legit - there's gotta to be an extra level of scrutiny above and beyond the norm given the history.

 

[Joij21]

You’re assuming a fast timescale. That isn’t necessary for a general trend towards greater intelligence to exist. Sea scorpions weren’t as smart as dinosaurs, who were not as smart as mammals. Brain to body mass ratios have been generally increasing all throughout the fossil record.

Scorpions (their land-dwelling relatives at least), and dinosaurs (birds are still considered dinosaurs) still exist. Scorpions today have the same intelligence as their more ancient cousins, and as far as birds are concerned scientists have found no proof that indicates the non-avian dinosaurs were any less intelligent than species of birds alive today. Neither scorpions nor birds are driving around mini cars under our feet, otherwise you would have seen so.

Point is evolution has no inherent direction, otherwise it would be intelligent design (thus implying some god or gods actually exist). You just have to be good enough for your generation, not even the best, and live long enough to reproduce. That's it! If you die right after having sex it's okay because your offspring will now outlive you and pass your genes on to future generations, congratulations you've won the game of life! Hence why evolution doesn't trend towards intelligence because sex, splitting in half, pollinating and making seeds, or releasing spores require zero intelligence whatsoever. Those basal functions are operated by pure instinct, or in less brainless beings, chemicals that react and trigger the reproductive process at a certain season or whenever the being eats too much (like bacteria).

You seem to take biomass as a scale for development.
Others would take energy consumption.
Is an obese middle income person more successful than a rich person with fitness?
-------------------
Oh and you take bacterias versus homo sapiens sapiens
Unfair

Considering the obese man is middle income, there are still plenty of women who would want to marry and have kids with him. The rich fit guy doesn't matter that much unless he somehow chooses to have more kids than the obese man (which I doubt since statistically wealthier people prefer smaller families). Therefore, evolution wise the obese man would be more of a winner because he has more kids, and thus his genes are much more likely to be common in future generations of humanity. Meaning obesity becomes more common in the future for humans, while fitness becomes super rare.

Also don't slander the bacteria. Mitochondria are bacteria that have developed a symbiotic relationship with all multicellular life to the point that they have evolved to reproduce with their host organisms so much to the point where they have become integrated as part of the whole organism. They are the powerhouse of the cell, without them your cells would struggle to metabolize enough ATP to make your brain, let alone your muscles even function. Other forms of bacteria also reside in the gut, without which you couldn't even digest your food and you'd starve to death. Bacteria also make cheese, who doesn't like cheese? All of these wonderful functions done without any brains whatsoever, just pure chemical and hormonal inputs and outputs.

Now the reason I think this is relevant to democracy is because too many people think that progressivism ought to be the "new" and "woke" form of democracy. Especially @Evie. Progressivism is nothing like original democracy however and instead is an attempt to create an elitist society of intellectuals mixed in with some bread and circus type policies to please the masses without ever really empowering them or giving them dignity. Truth is there is a lot of diversity in intellectual capability within species especially humans, yet exceptional intelligence as a gene is still rarer than average or lower intelligence. That means the formation of a dictatorship of the super intelligent (which is what progressivism really is) would only empower and enrich a very small subset of the population. There would be no checks and balances, because who would want to restrict the smart people from getting things done? However, the problem is power corrupts and empowering a few, leads to corruption as is human biological nature (even smart people can be corrupt and evil so don't tell me no). And smart people also have a disdain and sometimes hatred for those they believe are stupider than them (which would be like 80% of the actual population they are supposed to serve) meaning they would lack the required empathy and self-interest to actually handle the responsibility of such exceptional levels of power granted to them which progressivism by its very nature would have to provide. Thus, an intellectual eugenics-oriented dystopia would be the final form of such a system, where the smart would be cruel towards and outright attempt to euthanize the dumb. And since the dumber are a majority, this would be a tyranny of the highest order. Bacteria proving that intelligence is over-rated, and we need a more ethical based democracy that even allows even the stupid representation, or else evil smart people will genocide "us the majority" into extinction via their people hating policies.

 

[Joij21]

Just FYI, if you are hoping that scarce rare earths used to make transistors will save us from the techno apocalypse you may be out of luck:

Crystalline order offers access to high speeds for organic transistors

A transistor fabricated from the crystalline phase of an organic semiconductor material could provide a path to improved switching speeds — rivalling those of devices built from inorganic materials such as silicon.
​

Spoiler Legend :

A high-speed transistor structure made from an organic semiconductor material. a, Wang et al. fabricated a bipolar junction transistor (a type of transistor that is suitable for high-power and high-frequency applications) from layers of an organic semiconductor material known as rubrene. The semiconductors are p-type (where positive charges dominate), n-type (negative charges dominate) or i-type (for intrinsic, where neither dominates) and are arranged in three terminals known as the emitter, base and collector. Device performance requires that the mobility of positive charges (indicated by the arrows) is high in both the p-type and n-type layers, because mobility sets the speed of the current. This is, however, challenging to achieve in organic materials. b, Wang et al. engineered their device from a crystalline template of rubrene to achieve higher carrier mobilities. Subsequent rubrene layers in the device are expected to follow the same crystalline phase.

How does it dissipate heat without requiring more cooling and thus more energy for the cooling? Organic compounds are combustible, they even denature if oxygen isn't present for a combustion reaction, and computers are notorious for building up heat due to all the electrical power flowing through them.

If companies have to spend on higher energy costs to power massive industrial ACs just to keep these organic computers from spontaneously combusting, then how are they better than metallic based transistors with a higher melting point?

 

[citizenofdoom]

smart people also have a disdain and sometimes hatred for those they believe are stupider than them

I don't think they even care about that mate.
The smart people are mostly rich anyway.

Considering the obese man is middle income, there are still plenty of women who would want to marry and have kids with him. The rich fit guy doesn't matter that much unless he somehow chooses to have more kids than the obese man (which I doubt since statistically wealthier people prefer smaller families). Therefore, evolution wise the obese man would be more of a winner because he has more kids, and thus his genes are much more likely to be common in future generations of humanity. Meaning obesity becomes more common in the future for humans, while fitness becomes super rare.

Good luck in your progress of becoming superior on your metric tho, be obese, heavy and having a lot of kids.
I consider only my consciousness "myself" and even the house, the real estate, the stock, the bond, the wealth, the machinery, the knowledge, and the convenience store I own as my body as well since they feed me.
Imagine humans suddenly turned into robots, now, they are somehow less developed because only the brain is counted but the machine part is dismissed.

How does it dissipate heat without requiring more cooling and thus more energy for the cooling? Organic compounds are combustible, they even denature if oxygen isn't present for a combustion reaction, and computers are notorious for building up heat due to all the electrical power flowing through them.

It's their problem about how to solve it.
They might be a lot cheaper in the future.
Do you see any organic processing units beside brain nowadays?
That might be the future's answer. Looks like liquid cooling in computer nowadays tbh.

Progressivism is nothing like original democracy however and instead is an attempt to create an elitist society of intellectuals mixed in with some bread and circus type policies to please the masses without ever really empowering them or giving them dignity.

In your description, it looks like an ugly type of democracy.
Exceptional intelligence needs fund to grow. You know, something like USD.
That's how debt works, you borrow USD to invest into yourself then use your "exceptional ability" to create wealth.
That's the current model of free market.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

yes.
humans are problem solvers.
we have some problems.
then we came up with some solutions to those problems.
and we just encounter new problems.
then we have to solve new problems.
have you imagined the world in the 1700s?
if you are 41 years old now, and you born in 1700, you are very likely died in 1741.
we solved some problems.
i believe in global warming ofc.
but yeah
humans are great beings.
especially the top 1%
not in wealth or in anything
mostly in wealth and intelligence
and not me
since I'm pretty dumb
i know that I'm pretty dumb
because i literally saw how a smarter-than-me person can do
their ability seems unnatural to me, honestly
and their work ethnic
damn
idk if he is really a smart person or not
but smart people can, you know
think/theorize many things
and likely to solve global warming
somehow
when they solve it
then there will be problems arriving to us
problems exist
but its humans' choice to pretend those are invisible or not
maybe they build some cool doomsday-like infrastructures
that support trillions of humans
and yes, it's really to develop or to die
just take individuals
if you do not develop yourself
are you more likely to die than people who chose to develop themselves?
native people can continue their way of life
it's their liberty to do it
their freedom
no one can take it from them
but the real reason they can't thrive in industrial society
is not about the choice they made
it's because they don't know about the outside world
and also
they do not have the damn capital/money to invest into themselves
allowing themselves to thrive
if they participate into industrial society without $$
they dont have education
likely end up in jail
and we likely will exploit their resources by fooling them
society really developed into a way
if a sub-society of humans do not develop
they will get trampled
like you see in history
"colonization"
i pretty sure that trend
will continue in the future
how ironic
human develops to trample animal
now develops in the fear of being trampled by other humans
look at the wealth gap
that's the result
of some few people
tried to solve problems
some tried to climb
few made it to the top
animal got their meat into my mouth
tho
oh and i forgot to tell you the story of the technological advances of eastern civilizations
do you see how big countries nowadays?
comparing to the size of tribes?
yeah they are getting swallowed by agriculture empire
you know
have you heard of sinosphere?
yeah it swallowed a lot of things
un-agriculture things
some sorts of agri



sorry mate
it isn't happening anytime soon
its just
some humans' work pattern
is very similar to each other
so some think
hey
i can automize that thing
and they build a mechanical arm
then a lot of hydraulic mechanical arms are built
that's automation
watering and fertilizing plants kinda stupid work
lets use manned plane to do so
then someone thought an even better solution
and built some sorts of autonomous irrigation system
hooray
btw if self aware AI that is more advanced than humans happens anytime soon
well i would support letting them have the power and human go extinct
peacefully
but too bad
we can create self aware AI that is as advanced as humans
but not more
that's the magic, industrious process of consuming grain to make babies
human babies
---------------------------------
I'm kinda sleepy
it's near 0AM
and I'm really bored
so you can see
this long script of unorganized texts
sorry
good night

I enjoyed this poem.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

, but the house passed a new law shortly after saying you have to pay off any outstanding fines before you get your vote back.

Didn't they also make sure that there is no system by which someone can check to see whether their fines have all been paid off, and that those who vote thinking they paid all their fines but actually still have a small balance will be sent back to prison?

 

[Angst]

about ex convicts voting

if you prevent ex convicts from working, if you prevent them from voting, what is their incentive exactly to reintegrate into society

i'm just sitting here in the scandinavian prison model glaring at the states, at statements that if you wanted to vote why did you smoke pot. it makes no sense to me

it's concretely giving life sentences for minor offenses in practice. besides the heinousness of such a system, it makes no fiscal sense to actively prevent reintegration

it's both morally and practically bonkers

(apart from farming free prisoner labour ofc)

 

[schlaufuchs]

it makes no sense to me

it makes no fiscal sense

it's both morally and practically bonkers

Welcome to America. Everything operates like this.

 

[EvaDK]

about ex convicts voting

if you prevent ex convicts from working, if you prevent them from voting, what is their incentive exactly to reintegrate into society

i'm just sitting here in the scandinavian prison model glaring at the states, at statements that if you wanted to vote why did you smoke pot. it makes no sense to me

it's concretely giving life sentences for minor offenses in practice. besides the heinousness of such a system, it makes no fiscal sense to actively prevent reintegration

it's both morally and practically bonkers

The whole concept of a well functioning penal system rests on the foundation, that when the offender has done his/her time, you are released back into society with the stated goal to integrate yourself as a productive citizen again. The punishment phase has been concluded. Your citizens rights and freedom are restored.

If the state takes away citizens rights from a released offender, then the state is indirectly still treating this individual as a prisoner inside the penal system. Someone might be able to present arguments as to why this is right or justified, but at least be honest about what the state is doing and the kind of penal system you have.

 

[Joij21]

I don't think they even care about that mate.
The smart people are mostly rich anyway.

I wouldn't take too much pride in wealth. If something disastrous happens, most wealth would mean nothing.

Good luck in your progress of becoming superior on your metric tho, be obese, heavy and having a lot of kids.
I consider only my consciousness "myself" and even the house, the real estate, the stock, the bond, the wealth, the machinery, the knowledge, and the convenience store I own as my body as well since they feed me.
Imagine humans suddenly turned into robots, now, they are somehow less developed because only the brain is counted but the machine part is dismissed.

Ok, just remember if crap hits the fan and the economy implodes or something the majority of everything you consider to be a part of your person will have died. How would you feel then?

It's their problem about how to solve it.
They might be a lot cheaper in the future.
Do you see any organic processing units beside brain nowadays?
That might be the future's answer. Looks like liquid cooling in computer nowadays tbh.

The human brain uses a lot less energy though. If you want something smarter, you'd have to use more energy. Therefore liquid cooling might not be enough.

Why do you think this kind of stuff always becomes vaporware? They always promote it in science magazines, in documentaries, in the news about how it will "change the world". Thing is most of these techies no nothing about basic logistics and maintenance concerns let alone industrial and labour concerns, they think if it renders well in a 3D program and if it works on paper it's got to work in the real world. Hence why after 5 or 10 years all these things that the shows and magazines promised suddenly disappear and you never hear about them ever again.

So yes I'm extremely skeptical and dismissal of most nascent technology for the also not so uncommon tactic of most vaporware simply being a ponzi scheme. In order for me to believe a technology, it has to be purchasable. If I can't buy it already than it doesn't nor is it likely ever to exist.

In your description, it looks like an ugly type of democracy.
Exceptional intelligence needs fund to grow. You know, something like USD.
That's how debt works, you borrow USD to invest into yourself then use your "exceptional ability" to create wealth.
That's the current model of free market.

Good luck seeing all those funds being spent to make more vaporware while the person tries to scam the system without working hard by using a scam built up around their over hyped and promoted tech to steal investor money. All while making nothing and simply laughing away to the bank.

Yeah because giving people free money makes them do something good with it, and in no way would humans decide to game the system and not try to work as hard.

 

[Arwon]

about ex convicts voting

if you prevent ex convicts from working, if you prevent them from voting, what is their incentive exactly to reintegrate into society

i'm just sitting here in the scandinavian prison model glaring at the states, at statements that if you wanted to vote why did you smoke pot. it makes no sense to me

it's concretely giving life sentences for minor offenses in practice. besides the heinousness of such a system, it makes no fiscal sense to actively prevent reintegration

it's both morally and practically bonkers

(apart from farming free prisoner labour ofc)

Like most weird things about America, it's because of slavery

 

[Kyriakos]

I am not of the view that creating wealth is much of a goal for a state - it should only be done to the degree it's needed to sustain the citizens and allow for their personal and communal creative tasks. Ultimately, people who are able to create more wealth than others (meant as in wealth past the point of just living comfortably) aren't a priori more integrated or more friendly to the state. It's also quite easy to see that most people wouldn't prioritize wealth (as in monetary value) created over leisure pursuits of whatever kind (nor should they, obviously).
That said, maybe (can't be sure) it is true (the saying) that the only people who aren't enamored with money are those who were born to money, since they lived that as children and are emotionally aware of what it amounts to. If so, yet again ( ) I am in a better position than most

 

[PhroX]

Like most weird things about America, it's because of slavery

While much of the history goes back to there, as an outsider looking in, there really seems to be a belief amongst many Americans that the primary purpose of prison is not to reform, or even to deter criminals, but to punish them. Many people seem to actually delight in the thought of criminals suffering. And that is then reflected in how prisons work (or at least, in the lack of will to reform how they work).