Open competition: Earliest pyramids using philosophical civ and no stone

[Eqqman]

I did it on Monarch with no AI (didn't want to bugger with defense); and the map certainly helped, especially the plains hill...

...I'd say I chopped a good ten or twelve forests between my two cities, that seems realistic. Mostly I wanted to see if I could do it without the workboat and without the commerce tile, because those seem like the big requirements that wouldn't be fulfilled often in a real game...

But I think perhaps why you are flummoxed might be due to different map sizes...

Not to diminish your achievement in any way, but 10-12 forests, plus plains hill, plus multiple tiles that can give more than 3F when improved, plus having the first one of these on a river for the vital extra commerce, all adds up to a map that seems at least as restrictive (if not more so) than the start I needed in the fishing game. The only point I want to make with this comment is that Alexander cannot be expected to pull this off even a third of the time, so he's not worth bothering with. Saying he could do it even a quarter or fifth of the time is probably too generous.

You're absolutely right about the map size relating to tech calculations. I usually play on huge maps, but for all of these runs I've been doing standard. At standard/Monarch/normal the combined beaker total of Agriculture, Mining, and Bronzeworking is 342, on small/Monarch/normal it is 315. That 27 beaker difference is significant if you don't have a commerce Mine. The only way I can get these techs in under 35 turns in my runs wthout good commerce would be to have the city work a tile providing 1C from the get-go, then switch to working the lame 2F/2C water tile as soon as the Worker is out (I wouldn't consider it a good idea to delay the production of the first Worker under any circumstances). So you also had a major benefit from the map size. Another nail in Alexander's coffin.

Futurehermit wanted a plan that is good for Monarch+. Has anybody tried my Saladin run on Emperor? I'm wondering if the increased tech costs for higher levels or maps larger than standard mean he will require a commerce Mine himself at some point. The main reason I had to give up on Mao was that his tech timing is also too sensitive- I wasn't able to get a plan going under a least favorable set of cicrumstances that didn't require a pottery rush to build a cottage for him to work. Now that I have more experience with pulling this off from my Saladin/Alexander attempts, maybe I can revisist him and figure something out under a low-commerce but high-food setting.

BTW- regarding your comment about not wanting to bother with defense, I've never had a game where I was attacked by either the AI or Barbarians even past 1000 BC. So if you've been including deliberate Warrior builds in your plans, you don't need to bother.

I also like your use of the Monastery, but you only really had that option since the AIs were off. To refine that line of thought, you'd have the second city start a Barracks and get that as close to completion as possible to get ~30 hammers from whip overflow into the Forge, then whip 1 pop on the Forge. This allows the second city to only have to grow to size 3 but get a size 4 city's worth of whipping benefit. This should be reasonable to accomplish under most leaders in most circumstances, especially if the second city doesn't produce your second Worker and you chop the second Worker out of your capital instead. Ironically this is the only help Alexander would get in this whole process thanks to his cheap Barracks. Given all his problems though, this is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Eqqman]

And if you're playing with AI, all bets are off, since I know for sure that you get a discount when you're researching a tech the AI already knows. So you might get different tech times every game.

Yes... but mercifully, in the early game this bonus typically amounts to less than a full beaker so you can disregard it completely in doing your calculations. You'd want to disregard it anyway, since you need to figure out the minimum time you have to spend doing your research.

 

[Elledge]

To refine that line of thought, you'd have the second city start a Barracks and get that as close to completion as possible to get ~30 hammers from whip overflow into the Forge, then whip 1 pop on the Forge.

I actually tested this recently because someone else was under this same impression (if I read you right, namely that if you have X overflow on a double-production project due to res or civ, you get all that double overflow applied to the next build). The portion of hammers which overflow is reduced to what you would normally get during the second build.

(As I recall this was fixed in the 1.61 patch.)

 

[Eqqman]

For that particular line you quoted, I'm not taking into account double production on the Barracks. I think it shouldn't be too hard for any civ to get a size 3 second city with 59/60 hammers into a Barracks. The same turn you fill the production bar on the Oracle, get the Barracks back in your queue and whip 1 pop on it, to get 30+ (the 'plus' is whatever your city's normal hammer production is, - 1). Then you only need three forests left to chop plus one more whip. Thinking of Alexander, I was anticipating his production bonus would make it easier for him to hit 59/60 on the Barracks and still have just 30+ carry over from a whip. Somehow getting 60 from a 1 pop whip would have been cool, but you can't have everything (or in Alexander's case, can't have anything).

 

[futurehermit]

ok, so is the consensus so far that for monarch/normal/standard saladin is the only leader where you can have a reasonable shot at consistently pulling this strat off?

could someone who's pulled this off with saladin, against AI, on these settings, give me a sense of the build?

i'm surprised that mao can't do at least as well as saladin, given that mao starts with mining and agriculture. it seems to me that starting with agriculture should be at least as good as starting with the wheel? do you lay down roads right away with saladin, prior to improvements and chopping?

 

[futurehermit]

I have a couple more questions:

What do you think are the minimum requirements for the oracle-pyramids build?

What are the minimum number of forests that need to be available to the first city? second city?

Does the second city need to be settled on a plains hill? The capital?

Does the capital need to be on a river?

Does there have to be good overlap tiles that can be developed and shared? If so, what tiles (production, food, or both?).

What impact, if any, does having marble in the first or second city cite have on the build?

I'm just looking for minimum requirements so that I can say: I don't have what it takes for this build, so I'm going for a straight pyramids build.

 

[Eqqman]

ok, so is the consensus so far that for monarch/normal/standard saladin is the only leader where you can have a reasonable shot at consistently pulling this strat off?

could someone who's pulled this off with saladin, against AI, on these settings, give me a sense of the build?

I'd re-read my quite lengthy explanation in the first post where I mentioned I pulled it off (titled 'Mwuhahahaha'). Since I didn't write my notes down on a separate sheet of paper yet I'm still referring back to this myself when I'm having a go as Saladin.

i'm surprised that mao can't do at least as well as saladin, given that mao starts with mining and agriculture. it seems to me that starting with agriculture should be at least as good as starting with the wheel? do you lay down roads right away with saladin, prior to improvements and chopping?

I'm also surprised. The stumbling block I ran into over and over was not being able to get techs researched when I needed them, despite the fact that Mao has 2 techs you need to have, same as Saladin. Maybe Mao is easier on maps smaller than standard where the slightly reduced tech cost is just enough to make up the difference of not having a commerce tile. If there's any serious interest, now that I have more experience with the other leaders pulling this off I can go back and fix the problems I had with Mao. Given the amount of views this thread has but the paucity of different people posting, I think you're the only guy who cares about doing it from a practical perspective while a couple of us see it as an interesting intellectual exercise in efficiency.

The gist of using Saladin is yes, you're relying on roads to keep your initial Worker busy after he plants the first farm. You should never have any dead space where the Worker has nothing to do. Any time I've successfully done this with any leader, I'm looking at only 1 Farm and maybe 2 Mines being essential, so the fact that Mao can start on these right away isn't incredibly huge. I suspect that Mao needs a slightly higher amount of forests to finish the Oracle (Saladin only needs one) and his food resource may need to be on a river to squeeze out that last vital bit of commerce. Of course, so far every assumption I've had about what a leader needs to do has proven wrong once I actually went through the mechanics of doing it on a particular map.

 

[Eqqman]

I have a couple more questions:
What do you think are the minimum requirements for the oracle-pyramids build?

What are the minimum number of forests that need to be available to the first city? second city?

Taken from my original post on the topic-

This finish required a plains hill close enough to allow city founding on turn 2, with a tile providing 3F unimproved in the fat cross. The site for the second city needed to be adjacent to 3 forest tiles and needs to work a 3F tile from the founding of the city. The second city also needed a 4th forest. It is sufficient for this forest to lie in the 2nd ring of this city but be outside the cultural borders (you don't have time to get them popped on the 2nd city by any manual method). The second city must be 3 tiles away to avoid distance maintenance. Both cities need access to a Mine (it may be a requirement for this Mine to be on a grassland, not plains, hill), which they can share since the Forge city can work the Mine used by the first city to finish the Oracle [EDIT: to clarify, they *could* share a mine, but I think you just have enough time to build a 2nd Mine if you had to]. 1 Forest is needed to help finish the Oracle. It may not be evident from the picture but the second city was founded on Rice. Clearly I would have preferred picking a different spot so I didn't waste the Rice but this was the only place to go to meet the 3 trees requirement.

Does the second city need to be settled on a plains hill? The capital?

No for city #2, no for the capital if the food tile provides at least 5 total food + hammers.

Does the capital need to be on a river?

No.

Does there have to be good overlap tiles that can be developed and shared? If so, what tiles (production, food, or both?).

I assume you're asking if there is an overlap tile that needs to be actively used by both cities at some point, not necessarliy that good tiles happen to be in the fat cross overlap. You usually have time to build either a second Farm or a second Mine. If you build a second Mine, then the cities do not need to compete for the same tile. City #2 needs its own 3F tile, but this can be any food bonus tile that you leave unimproved. If none is available, then you will have to steal one from the capital for a time. But in all honesty, unless you get the tundra start, not having two different food bonus tiles is very rare. Even if it did happen, you could settle for irrigated grassland to plop a farm onto. If you can't meet the 3 trees in + 1 in/out of the cultural border requirement for city #2, then it has to have a Mine to itself, but you can just use the one the capital had since the capital won't need it after Oracle goes up. So there is unlikely to be any competition between the cities for certain tiles.

What impact, if any, does having marble in the first or second city site have on the build?

Zero. Fooling around with researching Masonry and building the Quarry takes time away from tasks that need to be done to get city #2 ready for the Forge. I've found that getting the tech research for being able to pick Metal Casting ready and getting the second city ready to build the Forge actually prevents you from building the Oracle too quickly. In my last game, I had a plains hill start on turn 2 with irrigated plains Wheat. This was enough of an Oracle boost already that I finished Oracle with no forests or whips and even had to queue swap to prevent me finishing it too early since I wasn't done with Pottery. I would actually ignore any Marble you see and hook it up after you've finished Oracle.

I'm just looking for minimum requirements so that I can say: I don't have what it takes for this build, so I'm going for a straight pyramids build.

Out of maybe 10 run-throughs that didn't have me stuck in the tundra, I haven't had a single game so far where I couldn't pull this off. The only other opening that might screw you is the high floodplain start that is nearly tree deficient or the start near the jungle belt that has no hills and no trees. But in either of these cases you're going to be hard pressed to chop the Pyramids too.

 

[futurehermit]

I suspect that Mao needs a slightly higher amount of forests to finish the Oracle (Saladin only needs one)

why is this?

 

[futurehermit]

how many workers do you usually have. it seems from your posts that you start with a worker and then build a 2nd worker right away in your 2nd city. it seems others are going for 3 workers?

so you only use one chop on the oracle. i'm assuming you prechop four forests for the forge? what size do you get your 2nd city to? i'm assuming you build a road between your cities. where else do you build roads, if any?

 

[Elledge]

how many workers do you usually have. it seems from your posts that you start with a worker and then build a 2nd worker right away in your 2nd city. it seems others are going for 3 workers?

so you only use one chop on the oracle. i'm assuming you prechop four forests for the forge? what size do you get your 2nd city to? i'm assuming you build a road between your cities. where else do you build roads, if any?

The road obviously is going to slow you down - why would you want a road? The reason there was a road in my screenshot is because I built it afterward, so don't worry about that.

 

[futurehermit]

well, eggman says saladin is easier because he starts with the wheel and he recommended that with mao i prioritize the wheel first.

so, i'm confused

also, i'm still unsure about whether to go 2 workers or 3 workers :S

i wish i could get this to work at least once i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong...

 

[Elledge]

I'm guessing that's because the limiting factor isn't usually how quickly you can build the Oracle or your forge, it's how quickly you can research Pottery to open up Metal Casting. At least that was my experience with Alexander.

I used 3 workers. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Eqqman]

how many workers do you usually have. it seems from your posts that you start with a worker and then build a 2nd worker right away in your 2nd city. it seems others are going for 3 workers?

so you only use one chop on the oracle. i'm assuming you prechop four forests for the forge? what size do you get your 2nd city to? i'm assuming you build a road between your cities. where else do you build roads, if any?

2 Workers comes from the 'having the worst possible start and still be able to do it' plan. Both of my Workers get produced naturally with no chops or slavery. If you have more than the 5 minimum forests I end up using, then you could probably chop out a second worker if you wanted. I've never bothered trying to have more than two Workers since as Elledge points out your tech speed starts to become a limiting factor over Worker turns. The capital needs to grow at least to size 3 in order to be able to work hammer tiles and the second city only needs to hit size 2 to have a point available for pop rushing and to produce at least 6 hammers per turn.

Roads are important so that you can later move onto a forest you prechopped and cut it in the same turn. Otherwise it will take a Worker 3 turns to cut 2 forests if his turn ends as soon as he hits the trees. This is important at the end when you are rushing production on the Forge. Common sense will dictate your road placement- obviously a road to any tree you prechopped plus interconnections to these tiles. Don't sweat it if you can't get the road network finished in time, it just means you'll have to be careful in micromanaging what Worker moves to what tile so you lose as few turns as possible from movement. Not having roads has always started to add up for me- especially in my first drafts of trying it with Mao where the second city was 5 tiles away and not 3. If you have the trees to get a third Worker out, then you can probably skip the roads, but I'm getting Bronzeworking so late for Saladin that it probably won't help much, if any. But really I would try to understand how the basic plan works and pull it off at least once, this will make it easier to figure out what things you are probably safe changing depending on the map you get or the leader you use.

 

[Eqqman]

i wish i could get this to work at least once i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong...

Post a screenshot of a starting location you tried this and failed on (with Saladin, since I don't have a Mao plan yet), then we can tell you exactly what each of us would have done to pull it off successfully.

EDIT: Make sure the image shows all the trees that are available for use, plus has the second city site revealed.

 

[Elledge]

Oh, I guess that really is a good use of roads. My second city was usually able to slave away 2 pop anyway - that's probably because with 3 workers I could spare the worker time to farm it up a little bit - so chopping trees to get the forge fast was no problem at all. If you only had 2, roads would probably save you a turn on the forge for sure.

And I didn't notice you were only using 5 forests, that's neat. I'm a chop fiend so I just chop workers and settlers reflexively. I guess I might have been able to do as well with 2 workers and less forests.

 

[futurehermit]

Can someone please tell me how to take screenshots and where to locate them? thx.

i'm working on an update to the detailed analysis thread (going to post it as a new thread). should be out soon! it will have the final three eras analyzed.

 

[Eqqman]

If you press <Shift><Print Screen / SysRq> it will ask you to name your image and it will save it to a 'Civ IV Screenshots' folder in your game directory if memory serves me correctly. As a reminder, when taking images of the map folks seem to like it better if you turned on the gridlines and Resource balloons.

 

[futurehermit]

great thanks, i tried hitting print scrn before and it didn't work. shift-print scrn, got it!

i always play with gridlines and resource balloons on, so no worries there!

 

[noto2]

I would like to see a comparison game of Pyramids+Great Library vs Cottage Spam. I suspect cottages would win easily, even with stone.

It depends. If you were to draw a graph of beakers per turn, I think the pyramids + GL strat would be a line that would shoot up around the time the mdis were built and go up and up and up and then hits its inflection point in the early middle ages, perhaps, and continue to rise but slowly.

The cottage spam line would rise in a gradual, linear fashion from the early game and keep rising at that speed until free speech and then shoot up a bit and continue to rise. Obviously the cottage spam would overtake the mids/gl line at some point, but where would that point be? Free speech? Philosophy? Maybe even later, maybe like around economics or even corporation, or possibly even later than that.

What this means is the person who went mids/GL will get to liberalism first and get rilfes and cannons while the cottage spammer will still be at muskets. Or the mids/GL person will have maces and trebs while the cottage spammer will barely have longbows.

In my experience, in games where I expand and cottage spam I am neck and neck with the AI until liberalism, and then get ahead. In games where I have grabbed the mids, parthenon, GL, or a combination of them and ran a specialist economy, I get first place in tech and research very early. Now, I wouldn't keep that lead for long if I just played peacefully, so I have to use the lead. You can use an early game tech lead to build a crazy powerful military and stomp all over your rivals. I think that's the way it has to be played. The exception is a terra map where you can be the first to astronomy and then become the largest civ through peaceful expansion.