OPM chief shrugs off calls for her resignation after hacking

Are you saying that only future historians who are barely out of high school at the moment are allowed to assess someone's presidency? I guess their birthdate is more important than their credentials.
No, I am clearly stating that 30 years is nothing to history. That the facts about what actually occurred can radically change as more information which is kept secret until those involved eventually die. That historians who are alive during the periods in question frequently have inherent biases which are not shared by those who come along much later. So the historical record frequently changes long after the events occurred as newly revealed facts debunk the opinions of the past.

But go right ahead and presume I must be babbling incoherently merely because I disagree with your personal opinions. Opinions which are borne out by the historical record itself. :lol:

FDR's New Deal and Social Security are technically socialist policies.
Is this supposed to be an example of the "hyperbole" which you falsely claim must exist in my own statements? Do you have any notion at all what happened to real socialists back then?

Social Democracy (or Social Security) isn’t Socialism, unless you drink tea

Back in the Cold War days, I remember that the word “socialism” was applied with disdain when speaking about the U.S.S.R, the old “Evil Empire.” These days, if you listen to the Tea Party, or to media figures such as MSNBC’s Larry O’Donnell, it would seem that the U.S. is a socialist country. How did that happen? It makes me wonder who really won the Cold War. (Sarcasm font. Where’s the sarcasm font?)

To be fair to O’Donnell, he merely implied that safety-net programs such as Social Security and Medicare are forms of socialism. I’ve heard this same view echoed by Bill Maher as he tried to demonstrate how irrational the Tea Party’s fear of socialism really is. You know, ’cause they wanted Obama to keep his damn socialist government hands off of their Medicare.

I don’t think, however, that this argument is going to win anybody over on the Tea Party side. Those who believe that any form of government aid or government involvement is the root of all evil (except the military) will only be more motivated to kill programs that are labeled as “socialist.”

But are these programs really forms of socialism? No. It seems that “socialism” has become confused with “social democracy.”
 
Not pyramid. Ponzi, though.

A Ponzi scheme can be sustainable, keep in mind. SS didn't properly factor in stagnation of the median wage or the increase in life expectancy. But the fixes aren't huge. It's been pretty good for anti-poverty and for economic stimulus though.
 
Not pyramid. Ponzi, though.

A Ponzi scheme can be sustainable, keep in mind. SS didn't properly factor in stagnation of the median wage or the increase in life expectancy. But the fixes aren't huge. It's been pretty good for anti-poverty and for economic stimulus though.

Oh yes, you are right. I did not realise they were different.
 
It is not a pension program and any social program falls under the broad definition of Socialism.

Socialism isn't bad or good, various ideals under socialism are bad, good and neutral.

Social Democracy is a form of Socialism.

Socialism ≠ Despotism but it can quickly lead there is the wrong people are put in charge.
 
That is an incredibly "broad definiiton", unless you are referring to the one the Tea Partyers prefer instead:

Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy,[1][2] as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.[3][4] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[5] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.[6] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.[7]

Socialism vs. Social Security

Socialism is one of America’s finest blanket accusations. Recently, socialism has been defined as returning the progres sive income tax to levels just after Reagan’s tax cuts for the wealthy. Now, the term “Socialism” is back to scuttle serious health care reform. The Public Health Insurance Option and the Health Insurance Exchange, two integral parts of Democratic healthcare reform, are miles from Socialist. The economic reasoning behind these institutions is to enhance free market interactions, not to create a single-payer system. The Public Option is no more “expansive” of govern ment than the Social Security Act. Creating universal health insurance in general is no more socialist than refusing to let the unin sured die outside a hospital.

Unlike most suppliers of goods in a free market, insurance companies do not com pete with each other by lowering prices or raising quality. Instead, they compete by excluding anyone who is likely to cost the insurance company money. This “adverse selection” is well known by anyone who has attempted to get an insurance company to pay for healthcare benefits. Thus, a ma jor reform is stopping insurance companies from denying coverage to those with “pre-existing conditions.” This is coupled with individual mandates which stop an inverse form of adverse selection. If there is no indi vidual mandate, the majority of people who sign up for healthcare will be those who are more likely to need it. This pools unneces sary risk on insurers. The individual man date fixes this by making the healthy buy insurance as well, thus lowering the general risk pool while raising overall coverage to over 90% of Americans.

The cost of healthcare reform is largely due to the affordability credits (see glos sary) which are necessary in order for indi vidual mandates to reach those in lower in come levels. The public option itself is paid for by premiums and is not a major source of cost. Neither is setting up the Health In surance Exchange.

The nation-wide Health Insurance Ex change proposed by reform advocates uses market powers to fix some of the inefficien cies that have plagued healthcare. The Ex change creates a market clearinghouse for health insurance plans similar to a stock exchange or farmer’s market. The market transactions for insurance plans are central ized, allowing for better informed citizens to choose among plans. By lowering infor mation asymmetries and allowing consum ers to see their options clearly, the Health Insurance Exchange increases incentives for providers to compete for observable changes in quality and cost. There is also a health commissioner set up to handle com plaints consumers have against insurance companies. In this respect, the commssion er’s analogue in the stock exchange would be the securities and exchange commission. The Exchange is, if anything, the embodi ment of the benefits of selective use of free market powers.

The more controversial proposal is the introduction of a Public Health Insurance Option into the Exchange. However, the Public Option is not a major extension of government power: the current incarna tion of the Public Option is purposefully modeled using powers already vested in the government by the Social Security Act. Among the many choices of insurance pro viders within the Exchange, consumers will be allowed to choose the “Public Option” if they like. Ideally, nobody would choose the government option; private insurance providers would all cut costs to the bone and compete to the point where their plans are rivals. The point of the Public Option is to induce a frenzy of economic competition in order to improve in surance choices.

Several have made the case that because the Public Option will not be aiming to make a profit, making other firms will go out of business. First, this confuses making a “profit” with covering all costs and wages something which the Public Option must also do. In addition, a recent report by the Congressional Budget Office has debunked the claim that the public option would drive private insurers out of the market. The argu ment is on par with saying the postal office will put fed ex and every other private mail company out of business.

The theme behind the “Socialism” accusation is that America is redistributing wealth by using government funds to pay for people’s insurance. However, the exact same thing happens when a hospital has to treat someone without insurance. Instead of having the government pay for a basic insurance package which properly places risk, the uninsured heap costs onto public hospitals which are then paid by the gov ernment. It is like chiding the government for buying everyone car insurance when the government currently pays for the damages of car wrecks of the uninsured. The only way to truly divest from “Socialism” would be for public hospitals to refuse any patient without insurance or the ability to pay for expensive surgeries. This, America’s re fusal to let it’s citizens die on the sidewalk, is the “Socialism” which causes pundits to foam at the mouth.

Simply put, providing a required safety net for rampant free enterprise and capitalism isn't "socialism". It is propaganda promulgated by the far-right.
 
The theme behind the “Socialism” accusation is that America is redistributing wealth by using government funds to pay for people’s insurance. However, the exact same thing happens when a hospital has to treat someone without insurance. Instead of having the government pay for a basic insurance package which properly places risk, the uninsured heap costs onto public hospitals which are then paid by the gov ernment. It is like chiding the government for buying everyone car insurance when the government currently pays for the damages of car wrecks of the uninsured. The only way to truly divest from “Socialism” would be for public hospitals to refuse any patient without insurance or the ability to pay for expensive surgeries. This, America’s re fusal to let it’s citizens die on the sidewalk, is the “Socialism” which causes pundits to foam at the mouth.

You know, I had always assumed that in america you did just "die on the sidewalk" if you could not afford healthcare. This point really makes the opposition to a proper healthcare system all the more strange. I can only guess it is the ideological opposition to “Socialism” that is preventing it, not any real economic arguments.
 
Did it?

Don't you think he would have been a vastly more effective president if he had served in Congress for at least 2 or 3 terms and become a far more entrenched member of the political machine?

And if you use that as a basis, you have to go back even earlier to before Lincoln. He has traditionally been seen as the best president the country has ever had. But you certainly wouldn't know that listening to the history revisionists still fighting the Civil War nearly 150 years later.

Lincoln only spent 1 term as a US representative and a couple terms as state representative before becoming president. Not all that different from Obama (a 1 term as US senator and a couple terms as state representative). More experience doesn't always mean better president.
 
Formaldehyde, I feel like you are insisting that I am saying that socialism equates to anti-americanism, and anti-capitalism and evildoing. I don't care what conservatives or republicans define as socialism. Socialism is not a glove in which evil communism slips its hand. I define socialism quite differently and quite close to what has been documented in Wikipedia by the Wikipedia users. Capitalism and Socialism are not water and oil and not enemies. Howard Zinn once said "People should not be retreating from the word socialism because you have to go beyond capitalism."

I am not a fan of Zinn but he was spot on when he said that the Soviet Union gave socialism a bad name.

I personally think that while trying to follow Karl Marx's path to communism, the Russians just lost their way into an autocracy that resembled the very monarchy they overthrew.

Conclusively, Social Security is a social program because:
a) American workers cannot opt out of it
b) the government fully controls how the funds are managed, determines eligibility, and how the money that is collected from the workers is redistributed to the people over the "Social Security Retirement Age".
 
It is not a pension program and any social program falls under the broad definition of Socialism.

Socialism isn't bad or good, various ideals under socialism are bad, good and neutral.

Social Democracy is a form of Socialism.

Socialism ≠ Despotism but it can quickly lead there is the wrong people are put in charge.


That's not how you define socialism.
 
Formaldehyde, I feel like you are insisting that I am saying that socialism equates to anti-americanism, and anti-capitalism and evildoing. I don't care what conservatives or republicans define as socialism. Socialism is not a glove in which evil communism slips its hand. I define socialism quite differently and quite close to what has been documented in Wikipedia by the Wikipedia users. Capitalism and Socialism are not water and oil and not enemies. Howard Zinn once said "People should not be retreating from the word socialism because you have to go beyond capitalism."

I am not a fan of Zinn but he was spot on when he said that the Soviet Union gave socialism a bad name.

I personally think that while trying to follow Karl Marx's path to communism, the Russians just lost their way into an autocracy that resembled the very monarchy they overthrew.

Conclusively, Social Security is a social program because:
a) American workers cannot opt out of it
b) the government fully controls how the funds are managed, determines eligibility, and how the money that is collected from the workers is redistributed to the people over the "Social Security Retirement Age".



Social program =\= socialism. 2 fundamentally different things.
 
Lincoln only spent 1 term as a US representative and a couple terms as state representative before becoming president. Not all that different from Obama (a 1 term as US senator and a couple terms as state representative). More experience doesn't always mean better president.
No, it obviously doesn't always do so.

But things are far different now. Obama's clearly stated platform was that he was going to use consensus to change the country. But he was stopped nearly every single time from doing anything by the clearly hostile Republicans in Congress who were intentionally stopping him from accomplishing his campaign goals. Goals which elected him president because they were popular with the majority of the people of this country.

I don't think that was realistic at all given the current level of partisanship and his limited experience in Congress.

Formaldehyde, I feel like you are insisting that I am saying that socialism equates to anti-americanism, and anti-capitalism and evildoing.
No, I am clearly stating that calling the New Deal and Social Security in particular are "socialism" is just Tea Party. It is much like many other statements you have made in this thread:

All these scandals for the US government has experienced are piling up so high, at what point does the leadership (the President) need to resign? One more major scandal? Two or more? This is so bad, Richard Nixon resigned for far less. We need new leadership. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, anyone! just not the guy we have in power now. It is so bad, I am willing to take Joe Biden until the presidential elections are done and someone new is inducted as president.

That was in the OP!

I consider all these scandals put together just as (at a bare minimum) if not more egregious than bugging the offices of political opponents.

There is tons of money to be made with that sort of data. Data from the most powerful nation in human history? hell yeah.

Also, let me ask you this, how do you know it is connected to the internet to begin with?

I know you want to trivialize the situation, it still warrants her resignation at a minimum.
There are far more.

So what were you saying about "hyperbole"?
 
we work and pay into it and receive money when we retire, thats a pension

No it is not. The US government does not see it like that either. They indicate that Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability insurance federal program. In other words, they see it as social insurance.

That's not how you define socialism.

I wish this was real time to ask you how you define socialism. Can socialism be defined without insulting so called modern liberals? It has become pretty clear to me that modern liberals in this forum don't like to be associated with socialism. Why?

Social program =\= socialism. 2 fundamentally different things.

I am not suggesting that social programs are socialism. I am saying that social programs are a part of socialism. They share the same damn word for Christ's sake!

No, I am clearly stating that calling the New Deal and Social Security in particular are "socialism" is just Tea Party.

Tea Party? how is it Tea Party? It is straight forward. There is nothing wrong with the New Deal and Social Security being labeled as socialist programs. Socialism was pretty popular and on the rise up until the United States and the Soviet Union had a falling out after WWII and the Red Scare along with McCarthyism were born.
 
I wish this was real time to ask you how you define socialism. Can socialism be defined without insulting so called modern liberals?

You could ask, or you could just check the source of all knowledge:

Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy,[1][2] as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.

Does not sound much like Social security to me.
 
I wish this was real time to ask you how you define socialism.
I already provided a more than acceptable definition on this very page. I guess you decided not to read it.

Tea Party? how is it Tea Party? It is straight forward. There is nothing wrong with the New Deal and Social Security being labeled as socialist programs. Socialism was pretty popular and on the rise up until the United States and the Soviet Union had a falling out after WWII and the Red Scare along with McCarthyism were born.
As I stated before socialism has never been popular in this country, especially back then. Much of America found nothing wrong with companies hiring thugs to beat and even murder anybody trying to unionize, much less go on strike to try to get needed reforms. Calling such social programs "socialism" is pure far-right propaganda which has ironically found a resurgence today.
 
You could ask, or you could just check the source of all knowledge:



Does not sound much like Social security to me.

Reread you definition please, and use some critical thinking. You'll get there :goodjob:

I already provided a more than acceptable definition on this very page. I guess you decided not to read it.
I don't want to come across as a dick, but I was asking Cutlass, not you on that one. I did read your post. As my kids would say OKTHX!
As I stated before socialism has never been popular in this country, especially back then. Much of America found nothing wrong with companies hiring thugs to beat and even murder anybody even trying to unionize.

I beg to differ. It was just seen as another political movement, not something to hate. Americans got upset at socialists during the Great War because they signed the Brest-Litovsk treaty with Germany, making it harder on the Entente in the other fronts.

Calling such social programs "socialism" is pure far-right propaganda.

Why is it propaganda?
 
Reread you definition please, and use some critical thinking. You'll get there :goodjob:

I just have, and I still do not get it. Sociallism is "characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy". Social security is about giving some small fraction of tax income to lower income individuals. They seem to me 2 quite separate things.
 
I wish this was real time to ask you how you define socialism. Can socialism be defined without insulting so called modern liberals? It has become pretty clear to me that modern liberals in this forum don't like to be associated with socialism. Why?



If you actually define socialism with an actual definition of socialism, then no liberals will be offended. The offense comes when you define socialism without bothering with an actual definition of socialism.

Liberalism and socialism simply do not have anything to do with one another. They never have, and they never will. So if you are associating them together, then the only reason to do so is to deliberately be insulting.



I am not suggesting that social programs are socialism. I am saying that social programs are a part of socialism. They share the same damn word for Christ's sake!


Well, if Dachs still posted here, he would remind you that Chancellor Bismark created social programs which were far to the 'left' than anything Democrats in the United States have ever managed to create. And he was extremely an example of conservatism.



Tea Party? how is it Tea Party? It is straight forward. There is nothing wrong with the New Deal and Social Security being labeled as socialist programs. Socialism was pretty popular and on the rise up until the United States and the Soviet Union had a falling out after WWII and the Red Scare along with McCarthyism were born.


You don't seem to understand the difference between capitalism and socialism. The New Deal was explicitly anti-socialist. It was explicitly for the purpose of defeating socialism. It was explicitly for the purpose of protecting capitalism and making capitalism work.

All of these things you label 'socialist' have no existence outside of the opposition to socialism.
 
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