Oracle - Immortal

[royal62184]

I recently started trying immortal difficulty and got 3 wins this weekend. One thing I noticed different from emperor is how early the oracle is built. I think I actually saw it built like 2200 B.C. maybe earlier I forget. On emperor I could get this most (~80%) of the time. I would beeline writing then backtrack mysticism -> meditation -> priesthood and then build it for COL. It appears on immortal the only way i'm going to get it is if I beeline priesthood. On immortal this seems suboptimal, not to mention I wouldn't have the prereq for COL (writing). I guess I could get MC instead, but I prefer COL. So, should I give up on the oracle now at this new difficulty level for me? Any advice or alternate routes I could take with the oracle?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

umm... mc?

honestly, it's the only one guaranteed; CoL is a sure thing only with high commerce start(gold/such) - otherwise... gamble.

bw, priesthood, chop while getting pottery; and even mc isn't 100% sure(but it's reasonably safe)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can get it with priesthood ----> writing with decent commerce if for some reason you need CoL early that badly.

Otherwise, I recommend taking MC, monarchy, or not building it.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

well, not building seemed optimal in the majority of cases

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, even though I mostly lose on immortal I'm inclined to agree.

 

[Gliese 581]

I agree, there is a difference in time of wonderbuilding that is quite noticeable between emperor and immortal, I don't want to think about what the difference between immortal and deity might be. I've been doing some WE games where I skip out on getting all worker techs since there's simply not always time for it if you're trying to hog all the early wonders, but I regard that as a highly specialized strategy that you must commit to and something you need to practice, I know I'm not all that good at it.

 

[vicawoo]

Since everyone's going great lighthouse these days, it's hard to get.

 

[Levgre]

one of my immortal games, 6 AIs, the oracle didn't go until 600 BC. It seemed very strange, since I think it goes about that time on much lower difficulties.

 

[Iranon]

If Industrious, defintiely go for MC - cheap forges are ever so nice, it's expensive and reasonably attainable. If you can get a religion somehow, OR is also quite valuable for a production bonus so the tech path has some additional merit.

If neither applies, there might be more important priorities than the Oracle.

 

[Gliese 581]

If Industrious, defintiely go for MC - cheap forges are ever so nice, it's expensive and reasonably attainable. If you can get a religion somehow, OR is also quite valuable for a production bonus so the tech path has some additional merit.

If neither applies, there might be more important priorities than the Oracle.

Marble in bfc is an even greater incentive I think since that's twice the bonus hammers of just industrous. While you don't get the cheap forges you do get an expensive tech that you can trade for as many techs as there are civs to trade with and you deny these things to an AI.

 

[mirthadir]

I have managed to bulb paper with the oracle on immortal (bonus points to anyone who can tell the class how and with which leader). However slingshots like that are exceedingly uncommon.

If you want CoL you need to:
1. Have no industrious civs in the game (you can make a guess when SH and the GW go).
2. Skimp on the worker techs. If you ignore two of the following early you should be able to finish writing and take poly instead of med: fishing, hunting, AH, or wheel. Build while researching writing.
3. Play the Inca.
or
4. Have high commerce. You need not even have gems/gold/silver, a decent number of sea tiles works, particularly if you are financial.

A safer, and often superior, bet is to go for MC.

 

[royal62184]

Lot of you were talking about industrious. As of right now when I go to a new difficulty level I start off with Darius because imo he is OP. All three games I won were with him. A month ago I couldn't even win with him, so I've improved a little bit. Since he's not industrious and if no marble is nearby, it may not be worth trying to pursue.

umm... mc?
honestly, it's the only one guaranteed; CoL is a sure thing only with high commerce start(gold/such) - otherwise... gamble.

That is good advice I will use this a rule of thumb in the future.

You can get it with priesthood ----> writing with decent commerce if for some reason you need CoL early that badly.

tbh, I forgot about that route for writing, I rarely take it. I have a hard time skipping pottery, especially for a financial leader. It sounds like my goal of trying to get COL is not the best route to take in the first place. As darius I try to get early for 2 whip courthouses and this allows me to rex earlier. Now that I think about it, out of the three games I think the most cities I got was 6 or 7 maybe before all the land was taken. COL isn't that useful at that stage in my mind. It becomes more important when I expand through war.

I'm thinking I'm just not going to be good enough to snag it on immortal for a while, so I might as well not bother. It pissed me off to get half way through meditation and the oracle is already built. Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[royal62184]

2. Skimp on the worker techs. If you ignore two of the following early you should be able to finish writing and take poly instead of med: fishing, hunting, AH, or wheel. Build while researching writing.

Why take poly instead of med? I think the last game med was 18 turns and poly was 24 turns on marathon. Because of the wonders it enables? Those 6-10 turns would make a big difference in getting the oracle I would think.

 

[royal62184]

Lets take a hypothetical situation on immortal where I start with gold and marble in the BFC and assume I have to food to work the gold and continue to grow my city.

Tech Path
Mining -> BW
Prechop the necessary forests, oracle is what 450 hammers on marathon? So 7-8 forests then?
Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood
Start building oracle
Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing

Starting builds
I typically building 2 workers right off the bat. If a decent start that takes 48 turns or less, if a crappy start then 60 turns (max, if nothing for the worker to farm/pasture/etc to increase the time of the second worker)

My thought is what I was originally doing to get oracle was good enough for emperor but was not the best path to get it in the quickest time which is what is required on immortal. What do you guys think about this path?

 

[Babibo]

I'm an Immortal player, and I almost never go for the Oracle, even with Marble. I think the problem with the Oracle, is not the production cost (the Oracle is relatively cheap), but the beaker cost. Meditation, Polytheism and Priesthood, aren't very useful in the early game, so I don't like to spend beakers researching them.
Of course, you gain it back if your gamble succeeds, but I don't like to gamble in the early game.

I beeline Writing in 80% of my games to be able to run specialists. Then I consider Aesthetics or Alphabet (for their tech trade value), and then Currency (to support a bigger empire).

 

[royal62184]

I'm an Immortal player, and I almost never go for the Oracle, even with Marble. I think the problem with the Oracle, is not the production cost (the Oracle is relatively cheap), but the beaker cost. Meditation, Polytheism and Priesthood, aren't very useful in the early game, so I don't like to spend beakers researching them.
Of course, you gain it back if your gamble succeeds, but I don't like to gamble in the early game.

I beeline Writing in 80% of my games to be able to run specialists. Then I consider Aesthetics or Alphabet (for their tech trade value), and then Currency (to support a bigger empire).

Yea, my typical starts are BW -> AH (if needed) -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet.

Tbh I have never considered aesthetics. Does the AI value the tech highly? I usally go Alphabet -> Currency -> Mathematics -> Masonry (traded for) -> Construction (something like that, may have missed a prereq in there)

Prepare for war and make sure I have COL before I rex through war typically. But every game is different and I deviate from this sometimes.

This is of course the path I choose when I am deliberately skipping Oracle.

 

[DMOC]

Take Metal Casting instead of Code of Laws. Unless, of course, it's a wonder economy game, where I would take AESTHETICS instead of Metal Casting (yes I would do that).

 

[Levgre]

Take Metal Casting instead of Code of Laws. Unless, of course, it's a wonder economy game, where I would take AESTHETICS instead of Metal Casting (yes I would do that).

Metal casting leads to more wonders because of faster production, and more Great Engineers...

 

[SnowlyWhite]

Lets take a hypothetical situation on immortal where I start with gold and marble in the BFC and assume I have to food to work the gold and continue to grow my city.

Tech Path
Mining -> BW
Prechop the necessary forests, oracle is what 450 hammers on marathon? So 7-8 forests then?
Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood
Start building oracle
Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing

skip wheel -> pottery(with 1-2 commerce start, its ~45 turns and go directly writing -> with one prereq. it's about 42 turns with low commerce) if you want col.

Prechop seemed suboptimal if you ask me; usually plain chopping, you can't chop more then 2(or you'll finish before even getting pottery, so you'll be stuck with choosing monarchy which is kinda crap trade fodder wise)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm an Immortal player, and I almost never go for the Oracle, even with Marble. I think the problem with the Oracle, is not the production cost (the Oracle is relatively cheap), but the beaker cost. Meditation, Polytheism and Priesthood, aren't very useful in the early game, so I don't like to spend beakers researching them.
Of course, you gain it back if your gamble succeeds, but I don't like to gamble in the early game.

I beeline Writing in 80% of my games to be able to run specialists. Then I consider Aesthetics or Alphabet (for their tech trade value), and then Currency (to support a bigger empire).

IMO, if you're going to gamble the earlygame is the best time, you can always duck out if it fails , although my gambles tend to be more...GAMBLES. Like, if I attack and this fails, I'm going to be dogpiled and killed in the near future , so ducking out can simply be replaced with "lose" I suppose.

Anyway, if you can actually run a religion without murdering diplo, meditation and priesthood are both worthwhile techs. Even early on. In isolation getting a religion seems pretty important, either for pacifism or OR. I oracle or bulb religions much more frequently in isolation, even if it's just taoism.