Orbis 0.30 workshop

[Imuratep]

The idea is similar to Spirit guide, but spirit guide chooses a random unit in your army and thus serves a completely different purpose. It keeps the xp of your army on the same level. My idea concentrates it on a single unit that may become very powerful by this xp accumulation especially if you upgrade units with channeling or arcane spell sphere promotions that now can serve as casters and as strong military units.
I had some other ideas for it like that the mutated promotions the original unit had will be transfered to the new Stygian guard or that you can transfer unfavorable mutation promotions to nearby enemy unit, but I think the idea should stay simple and effective.
I think the way it will play depends on the percentages Ahwaric will choose for the success chances.

By the way for the damage type I think it would be the best to introduce a new damage type: mind/psychic damage. It fits best for overlord units (as IIRC cold damage is the Illian sphere) and additionally it should be useful for many other purposes. For example overlords priests could use it for a nasty mind torture spell. IMHO Tsunami and summon Kraken fixes the religion too much on the dominance of the sea. Both spells mean you automatically win any sea combat, but are completely useless outside of this context. IMHO it also does not represent the Lovecraftian stories. No story speaks of a giant Tsunami steamrolling every coastal city, but nearly every story speaks of the horror and insanity the contact with the Overlords causes.

So how about that:
Spell 1:
Nightmares from a world beyond
Passes the nightmare promotion to enemy units within 1 yield. Can be resisted.

Nightmare promotion:
10% exspire chance per turn
-20% regeneration. At the beginning of each turn x psychic damage.

Spell 2:
Suicidal Dreams (Think of the OO golden age event...):
Targets a city within 1 tile. The city loses 1 population. 50 % miscast chance. 10% chance the caster dies.

 

[arkham4269]

Okay, I'm not sure how much many of you have access to American comics but if the whole OO as Cthulhu worship is a way that people want to go, some interesting ideas could be gotten from the Hellboy/BPRD comics.

Like FfH, the most powerful 'angel' creates the the 'dragon' Ogdru_Jahad who later spawn the the Ogdru Hem. The Ogdru Jahad was bound by its creator who was then later destroyed (with only his right hand that bound the dragon remaining which is later bound to Hellboy)

What I'm thinking is something like this could be used in conjunction with the whole Cthulhu mythos. In FfH we have the dreaming Danalin instead of Cthulhu but the thing I like about the Hellboy/BPRD is that you have these transformations of people into the 'frog monsters" who are supposed to be the final advancement of man, sort of like the fish people of Lovecraftian Dagon who will work to bring about the freedom of their lost god.

Now I would think that perhaps this could be tied somehow to the destruction of the Aifons. They were slaughtered and their tortured souls are being 'kept' by their sleeping god. So while the OO followers are thinking they are going to gain power, how this is done is actually by bonding them with the souls of the dead Aifons who lust to return to the world, get revenge and to reawaken Danalin who only feigns sleep to so as to keep secret His plans of Revenge.

In Hellboy, the 'frog monsters' can transform from their 'advanced' stage to their normal stage. Perhaps OO units of a certain level could have access to a form of lycanthropy where they could transform to this state (could water walk and the like) but couldn't pass it on.

So not only does the followers of OO want to spread their religion, they work to overthrow the current order. Perhaps cities that have the OO in it could cause units to get the 'frog' promotion in the same way as the Cult does and if OO isn't the state religion, these units might have a random chance to transform as a barbarian unit for a turn or two before reverting back.

...and I'll stop here because I've got to pretend I'm actually doing school work in class.

 

[arkham4269]

Is there any plans to tweak the diplomacy a bit? I'm doing a quick test game playing the Illians and I'm finding some odd stuff. First off, the only other evil Civ is the Svaltafar who is generally hated. I, on the other hand, am not only evil, but I'm converting a big chunk of the map (tiny, lakes) into ice and yet everyone seems to like me, even the Amurites! In fact one of the Civs that has tended to be merely 'lukewarm' with me is the Doviello!

Now I would think that certain Civs should have some base line additions to diplomacy for or against certain civs. I have seen both elvish groups to like each other since they have FoL and some similar civics! My thinking is that there are a lot of Civs that just wouldn't like each other.

The Amurites and the Illians should obviously hate each other and I'd think the Sheaim wouldn't like the Amurites either.

I'd think the Clan would have serious animus versus the Bannor. Decius playing as a Calabim leader might also have a hit vs. the Bannor.

I could see the Elohim has problems with the Hippus and Bannors since they are very martial.

 

[Ahwaric]

The idea is similar to Spirit guide, but spirit guide chooses a random unit in your army and thus serves a completely different purpose. It keeps the xp of your army on the same level. My idea concentrates it on a single unit that may become very powerful by this xp accumulation especially if you upgrade units with channeling or arcane spell sphere promotions that now can serve as casters and as strong military units.

A kind of immortal that just keeps changing bodies... a fitting idea.
I like the idea of new spells, too. Maybe some kind of mindwar spell... or despair...
I do not like Kalina's idea of hunting lost spirits - did anyone like the catch Alcinus game?

Okay, I'm not sure how much many of you have access to American comics but if the whole OO as Cthulhu worship is a way that people want to go

I think it was there all the time, just contaminated with the demon stuff. Blasphemous Order propaganda...

Now I would think that perhaps this could be tied somehow to the destruction of the Aifons. They were slaughtered and their tortured souls are being 'kept' by their sleeping god. So while the OO followers are thinking they are going to gain power, how this is done is actually by bonding them with the souls of the dead Aifons who lust to return to the world, get revenge and to reawaken Danalin who only feigns sleep to so as to keep secret His plans of Revenge.

Nice idea. I think Aifons are gone for good - While it might be interesting, the water civ would be very hard to balance, and to make it work in the first place. So we can have them in this way - and in might be even more intersting.
Plus we do not need to directly insert Old Ones into FfH.
On the other hand, I want to expand/change FfH cosmology a bit. For now, it is very tolkienesque - the One (illuvatar/luonnatar - even the names are somewhat simillar) and his angels, that rule the world in his absence.
I want to introduce other spirits - the ones that are more connected to the earth, or are from the great beyond. In many mythologies there are different pantheons (or clans) of gods, plus different spirits. Old ones can be first of those - connected to danalin, but aifon spirits are part of it - and old ones are doing a lot of behind the scenes.
The other one will be Palatinate (if I do not change the name - do you like it?), but I will not disclose much of it yet...
In fact, I even think of adding two more religions - to fill classic D&D alignment grid:

The Order           Empyrean             XXXX (no name, just the ideas for now)
Runes of Kilmorph  Fellowship of Leaves Octopus overlords (or should I rename it to Old Ones?)
The White Hand    Council of Esus        Ashen Veil

Left to right law to chaos, top to bottom good to evil.

As you may see, I am deviating from standard FfH lore. I plan to keep most of it, but as Orbis is already something different, I can go further thsi way. There is already some warhammer plus steampunk, and if I do not like something, I am going to change it. You have been warned - and you will know I think of changing things in advance, as you do now.

Edit: decided to add some explanation, why I put each religion where it is:
The Order - Lawfull Good, I think it is quite obvious (well, It might be just lawfull, but I like it to be as far from AV as possible)
Empyrean - it is basically renamed Lathander faith from D&D - mercy and redemption, as good as it gets, no regards towards law & chaos
Runes of Kilmorph - dwarves are usually lawfull with good tendencies, but there is not much mercy in RoK, and it is very serious religion. Ordo Machinarum (one of possible names for mechanos religion) would fit here too, but it is too civ specific
Fellowship of nature - classic pristine nature religion, for ljosalfar is more towards chaotic good, for calabim lawfull evil, but it is still neutral I think
Octopus overlords - Overlords suggests lawfull, but I would rather change the name than the theme here - and the theme are dreams, and nightmares of neutral god, so I think chaotic neutral is the best choice. Cult of the dragon also falls here.
Ashen Veil - it is all about destruction of the world, demons on the loose, plus Agares revolted against The One - Chaotic evil for me
Council of Esus - The evil of men, deception, but also secret organization - I think Neutral evil fits best
The White Hand - I want it to be alternate (opposite) version of destruction (will the world end in fire or ice?), ice is related to stasis, so Lawfull evil I think
XXXX - ok, will post the ideas. Just do not expect it soon... So: no name for now,I thought of something with passion in theme, be it in love or fight. Plus maybe some good lycanthropy? In general, the mixed church of Sune, Selune & Cord plus inspiration from norse & maybe greek mythology. Also creative side of the nature, pixies and maybe satyrs (if moved here from FoL, it would get some beasts as replacements) - in that regard, I think it is close to Amathaon

Is there any plans to tweak the diplomacy a bit?

Now I would think that certain Civs should have some base line additions to diplomacy for or against certain civs. I have seen both elvish groups to like each other since they have FoL and some similar civics! My thinking is that there are a lot of Civs that just wouldn't like each other.

There are two ways of thinking - you can decide to let history change defined lore (Svartalfar following FoL have been redemeed, don't you think?) or forcing history to replay itself. In scenario, second way is better. But in free game, setting just general rules might be better. That is why I did not add Operas interpersonal modifiers. But some minor modifiers migh be good - I am not sure, when I tried to disable certain civ/religion combinations, people complained that I force one and only playstyle. So, I removed all restrictions but one - vampires will never adopt empyrean...

 

[Ahwaric]

Now a quick update what I am working on - decided to split it to make reading easier.

Finally started to work on civics. It is a lot of work to describe everything, so I will just name a few changes.

• Decentralization was removed, survival is now default economy tech (but no longer adds to forester's lodge).
• Crusade is no longer bannor only. No longer will it block buildings building (but will lower production rate). Only bannor will get free units (demagogs)
• Added some modifiers for tribalism & barbarism
• Glory is scheduled for deletion
• I am tempted to cut enlightement & purity, possibly adding some ideas to other civics (pacifism & crusade?)
• Religion, wealth etc all allow you to get respective great people easier (unlimited specialists of the type or better chance of getting great general for conquest). Pacifis is all around (but it does not influence generals). Need ideas for isolation
• Guardian of nature will stay, it has a lot of flavour, I think sacrifice the weak is nice too
• Government civics need change. I am fine with the concepts of republic, theocracy & magocracy. Not sure regarding despotism/god king/aristocracy trio. I think god king overlaps theocracy & despotism - is a mixture of both. I want there to be separate civic for absolute power of an individual (despotism) and separate for heriditary rule (monarchy), where king rules, but his power is limited by powerful nobles, usually his closer or more distant kin (currently aristocracy, maybe I should rename it). So, should god king stay? Or should I just change despotism to be better alternative for other civics?
• In general, I want early civics to be real alternative to late ones (well, maybe except local cult in religious category) - just suited for different playstyle.
• Two more: slumbering coven is a kind of theocracy, but first, can be attributed to separate tech, and second, has nice flavour. So not sure here. Shadov court is needed to CoE, but is a kind of twisted republic. Maybe I should add a building for CoE that gives nice bonuses (might fit CoE better than a civic...)

Another question - there are two types of lycanthropy at the moment: baron (spreading) and doviello (not spreading). Plus two forms of werewolves - permanant ones and changing back and forth to human form. Should I unify it? I.e. baron has the same form as doviello, but it will be changed so it can infect other units (and turn them to your side)?

Also, it is already in the changelor, but I managed to update Orbis to last Flavour mod version. SHould process hell terrain better, but using the new climate system I can do some nice things. In general, the terrain should be more dynamic. I think of even changing some spells (scorch, spring) to use it.

Tried removing for commanders. Not much change, they still work. AI left forts empty in early game, but later it garrisoned them with some defensive units - archers & spearmen. I think I will remove fort commanders, add special promotion granted to units garrisoned in the forts (should it be the same, or different for each stage? - note that each stage already gives different bonuses so it might not be needed). The promotion will apply to melee, archery & siege units only, and only melee and archers will be able to claim forts.

Ok, that is all for now.
I think I gave you a lot to think about. Make sure to post your opinions...

 

[Valkrionn]

In fact, I even think of adding two more religions - to fill classic D&D alignment axis:

The Order Empyrean XXXX (no name, just the ideas for now)
Runes of Kilmorph Fellowship of Leaves Octopus overlords (Or Old Ones?)
The White Hand Council of Esus Ashen Veil

Left to right law to chaos, top to bottom good to evil.

Actually, I've been considering adding one last religion to RifE. And probably removing Machinarum.

The new religion was spawned from a discussion for one of Opera's projects, though the idea's actually mine eek: Shocking, right?)... Tentative name is 'Waves of the Mind', though it has nothing to do with water.

It would also fill the spot you left blank... Could really fit any Good spot (or Neutral, if you stretch it), but Chaotic Good is the one that's open.

 

[arkham4269]

Nice idea. I think Aifons are gone for good - While it might be interesting, the water civ would be very hard to balance, and to make it work in the first place. So we can have them in this way - and in might be even more interesting.

Indeed and I didn't mean to imply they would return. It would be a fusion of the old Aifons into new bodies to produce a new race. It would be more 'amphibious' as it were. I mean tied to water but not needing it.

I just like the classic idea that there was an older race, maybe prior to man, that died out or was vanquished but now has arisen to claim back it's glory. So instead of a new race, this would be a way to bring back the Aifons at least in soul form. Plus if we're talking Old Ones, we're talking madness and lunatics. Well if a lot of the OO you gain is by opening yourself up to these dead Aifons, your allowing in their rage and madness.

Plus we do not need to directly insert Old Ones into FfH.

Well in my idea, the Aifons where the Old Ones but don't need to be this heavy duty, powerful race like the old ones. It is just their souls, that through merging back in Erebus grants new powers to the OO worshipers but also tends to bring madness and rage.

On the other hand, I want to expand/change FfH cosmology a bit. For now, it is very Tolkienesque - the One (illuvatar/luonnatar - even the names are somewhat similar) and his angels, that rule the world in his absence.

I agree and I want to work on taking out all the Norse references. Although in my comments about a possible theme for a Chinese/Korean/Japanese type civ, the concept of a Ragnarök could make sense, especially since in the course of the game that's what you get.

 

[Ahwaric]

Actually, I've been considering adding one last religion to RifE. And probably removing Machinarum.

Good idea, but it is just me Look at my edit above...

The new religion was spawned from a discussion for one of Opera's projects, though the idea's actually mine eek: Shocking, right?)... Tentative name is 'Waves of the Mind', though it has nothing to do with water.

Shocking? Why, you have plenty of ideas, including good ones - I really like some of your porposals/additions.

It would also fill the spot you left blank... Could really fit any Good spot (or Neutral, if you stretch it), but Chaotic Good is the one that's open.

Need to visit weave more often... no idea what project (of dozens of Opera's ideas) that might be... But first, more writing on the anatomy of frogs... RL stuff

Well in my idea, the Aifons where the Old Ones but don't need to be this heavy duty, powerful race like the old ones. It is just their souls, that through merging back in Erebus grants new powers to the OO worshipers but also tends to bring madness and rage.

As I said, nice idea. But I am not sure I want it to be only that - the real Old Ones would be great too.

I agree and I want to work on taking out all the Norse references. Although in my comments about a possible theme for a Chinese/Korean/Japanese type civ, the concept of a Ragnarök could make sense, especially since in the course of the game that's what you get.

What is wrong with Ragnarok? I mean except it being the end of the world (or just the begining of another cycle?). I do not want to remove it, just add flavour... and diversity.
Also, do not expect norse references removed. If anything, more will probably come. Odin & einherjar did not say their last words, nor did at least one more god, this time from a different mythology...

 

[arkham4269]

Now a quick update what I am working on - decided to split it to make reading easier.

[*]Government civics need change. I am fine with the concepts of republic, theocracy & magocracy. Not sure regarding despotism/god king/aristocracy trio. I think god king overlaps theocracy & despotism - is a mixture of both. I want there to be separate civic for absolute power of an individual (despotism) and separate for hereditary rule (monarchy), where king rules, but his power is limited by powerful nobles, usually his closer or more distant kin (currently aristocracy, maybe I should rename it). So, should god king stay? Or should I just change despotism to be better alternative for other civics

Well I discussed in one of the forums that I think there needs to be a distinction between a leader who is seen as anointed by a God (like most European kings) and one who is seen as a 'living god' - I've argued that the Risen Emperor and the Illians leaders are more of the second type; they are worshiped whereas a anointed king isn't. However, just because you don't get worshiped doesn't mean you don't have a lot more power than a mere 'mortal' leader since dissent isn't just treason but also heresy.

I'm not sure how you would (if you'd even want to) differentiate between a Feudal King limited by nobles and a Anointed King who has more secular power along with being the head of their Church. Again I think that the Scions and Illians go farther since in some respects their government civic of God-King IS their religion...which may be a good way to deal with it: move it to religion since the Illians and Scions are not irreligious, just they worship their leader.

 

[Valkrionn]

Runes of Kilmorph - dwarves are usually lawfull with good tendencies, but there is not much mercy in RoK, and it is very serious religion. Ordo Machinarum (one of possible names for mechanos religion) would fit here too, but it is too civ specific

On Machinarum... I've been thinking of ways to make it more accessible, and I'm finding it's rather difficult to do without getting in the way of RoK (Or AV, as both give science). I may end up merging the two together (unit-wise), in which case the Mechanos become agnostic again. Or I may make Religious 'Families', where different religions count the same for diplomacy/shrines/so on, so we could have religious Schisms... In which case, Machinarum would be a split from RoK.

 

[arkham4269]

On Machinarum... I've been thinking of ways to make it more accessible, and I'm finding it's rather difficult to do without getting in the way of RoK (Or AV, as both give science). I may end up merging the two together (unit-wise), in which case the Mechanos become agnostic again. Or I may make Religious 'Families', where different religions count the same for diplomacy/shrines/so on, so we could have religious Schisms... In which case, Machinarum would be a split from RoK.

I agree with Religious families since most religions have different facets. I mean look how depending on which passages you read in the Christian Bible you can be a very peaceful group of folks to downright nasty crusaders.

In regard to RoK, I could see a brand of it being very uncaring in the "Riddle of Steel" sort of way.

I wish there was an 'lawful evil' religion. I mean with the AV and OO, people are can be treated really crappy. I think there is a need for a religion that reflects leaders/ideals shown in characters such as Darth Vader where you have Law and Order but at a severe price. As Dr. Doom once said, "The only freedom I have taken from my people is the freedom to commit evil." So while the Latverians have a low crime rate and such, they pay a heavy price in freedom. I mean one could argue that Order fits that but Order is a 'good' religion.

I don't know, it's almost like Order needs a new name and have two flavors. The 'good' order where people follow because the believe in The Law and Justice and then the 'evil' order where The Law is what the God (or God-King) says it is and impose this order upon their people who obey...or else. However, this evil doesn't want Hell to come to Erebus and in fact might dislike Civ's that contribute towards the AC due to it messing up their own Order.

 

[Valkrionn]

Isn't Lawful Evil the White Hand? That's pretty much how I see it, honestly.

 

[arkham4269]

Another question - there are two types of lycanthropy at the moment: baron (spreading) and doviello (not spreading). Plus two forms of werewolves - permanant ones and changing back and forth to human form. Should I unify it? I.e. baron has the same form as doviello, but it will be changed so it can infect other units (and turn them to your side)?

I like both types but the only thing I think needs to change is that there needs to be another way (possibly through the werewolf at the gate events) for a Civ to get access to werewolves. I've found that in many games I end up with an army of werewolves; especially if I attack a Civ with a lot of level 1 units. Actually, now with barbarians showing up in stacks of four, I've found that I can attack a stack of orc warriors or goblins with Halfmorn, he'll create a R-Wwolf who in turns attacks and wins and thus becomes a B-Wwolf! Over a few turns, I can suddenly have almost 10 B-Wwolves and often a few greater ones.

I'm thinking that perhaps when a werewolf attacks and dies, the killing unit might either become a werewolf itself, but stay on its original side or would be that unit would get the lycanthropy promotion. This way there is more of a danger in relying to heavily on werewolves as you could end up creating quite a few werewolves that will be used against you.

 

[Kalina]

A kind of immortal that just keeps changing bodies... a fitting idea.
I like the idea of new spells, too. Maybe some kind of mindwar spell... or despair...

I though Overlords are very powerful beings, same rank as archangels or gods. Too powerful to inhabit mortal body. Idea of possession reminds me demons and I thought you wanted Overlord to be different from demons. But I like whole mechanic Just a litte thought - maybe this Essence should spawn at capital, to avoid being killed a moment after Stygian Guard.
OO could use something to conquer cities. Rioting decreases city defence IIRC.. so maybe something causing city to riot for one turn ?
About suicidal dreams spell - I love flavor, but it might be tough to balance. Seems too powerful for low level casters, and if you have high level one near enemy city, you probably have more important things to do. But maybe it's possible to be castable from your city, affecting one city with OO anywhere in the world ? Something like Infernal worldspell, giving you choice of three or five best OO cities.

The other one will be Palatinate (if I do not change the name - do you like it?), but I will not disclose much of it yet...

They are part of ancient Patria empire (and Patria is ancient Rome-based) and flavorwise are medieval Germans ? Yeah, I think Palatinate fits perfectly

Religion, wealth etc all allow you to get respective great people easier (unlimited specialists of the type or better chance of getting great general for conquest). Pacifis is all around (but it does not influence generals). Need ideas for isolation

I'd cut it. Mercantilism seems to fit Isolation's role if not with flavor than with mechanic.

Guardian of nature will stay, it has a lot of flavour, I think sacrifice the weak is nice too

With it's current modifiers (free health and happiness) or are you planning something different ?

Another question - there are two types of lycanthropy at the moment: baron (spreading) and doviello (not spreading).

In most fantasy world there are two kinds of lycanthrops - natural ones and infected ones (I think it works this way in D&D you seems to be familiar with). You might consider changing them this way, so only Doviello and Baron himself are able to control when they change and they have chance to infect unit with lycantropy when fighting in changed form. Infected unit won't be able to change at will and will change at random instead. Baron should use same style of lycanthropy as Doviello, if only to avoid confusion.
BTW, is it possible to let player disband units that you lost control but are not barbarians ? Or at least let you attack and kill them ? It's annoying if it happens to your national unit and you can't build another.
And I like the way you changed fort commanders I don't think different promotions for different levels of fort are necessery - keep it simple, at least in the beginning.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The lore described The Baron and Hati's mother (probably meaning Greater Werewolves in general) as being able to change forms at will. (Hati herself was infected while in the womb, which made the disease a core part of her being and made her unable to ever take human form.)


It seems that other Lycanthropes change form cyclically based on the sun, not the moon. They become as wolves at night, but the light of Lugus shows them who they really are, returning them to their natural form and allow them to suppress the beastial rage that normally dominates them.


Werewolves naturally have a pack mentality when in beast form, and so tend to follow the strongest leader. They are however not the most loyal soldiers, even when following Duin. Duin spends most of his time in human form to direct assaults, but will quickly turn into a giant werewolf to show young upstarts who is boss.

 

[Ahwaric]

I though Overlords are very powerful beings, same rank as archangels or gods. Too powerful to inhabit mortal body. Idea of possession reminds me demons and I thought you wanted Overlord to be different from demons. But I like whole mechanic Just a litte thought - maybe this Essence should spawn at capital, to avoid being killed a moment after Stygian Guard.

That is why I like the idea of two kinds of spirits - real Old Ones, the ones that are worshipped together with Danalin (which is some kind of Cthulu transformed into angel to fit FfH cosmology), and small spirits, perhaps Aifon priests or mages that came from the other side - or simply never left.

OO could use something to conquer cities. Rioting decreases city defence IIRC.. so maybe something causing city to riot for one turn ?
About suicidal dreams spell - I love flavor, but it might be tough to balance.

Nice idea - a conqest from within...
You are right, dreams would be very hard to balance.
Just keep posting ideas for spells guys, Once I start picking ones for new spells, we will be able to choose the best ones.
Remeber the spheres: mind, chaos, water

They are part of ancient Patria empire (and Patria is ancient Rome-based) and flavorwise are medieval Germans ? Yeah, I think Palatinate fits perfectly

Yes, they were part of Patria, and flavourwise are one of the eastern provinces of the Holy Roman Empire - not just Germans... I think you will recognize some of the references, Kalina.
I want to know if it is a good name - both regarding flavour (now that you know a bit more about it) and if it sounds good. Not much counter-ideas, but not really sure about current one.

I'd cut it. Mercantilism seems to fit Isolation's role if not with flavor than with mechanic.

And it is possible that I will do it. In general, I would like it to enhance espoionage, and defense of the civ. But if it is not that great, will be cut.

With it's current modifiers (free health and happiness) or are you planning something different ?

For now only slight modifications. But any ideas welcomed...

BTW, is it possible to let player disband units that you lost control but are not barbarians ?

Hmm, is it not possible? Then I should change this.

So while the Latverians have a low crime rate and such, they pay a heavy price in freedom. I mean one could argue that Order fits that but Order is a 'good' religion.

What you describved is I think lawfull good - and that is order.

I don't know, it's almost like Order needs a new name and have two flavors. The 'good' order where people follow because the believe in The Law and Justice and then the 'evil' order where The Law is what the God (or God-King) says it is and impose this order upon their people who obey...or else. However, this evil doesn't want Hell to come to Erebus and in fact might dislike Civ's that contribute towards the AC due to it messing up their own Order.

Isn't Lawful Evil the White Hand? That's pretty much how I see it, honestly.

Exactly - and I will probably add white hand

@ werewolves
I always thought that Baron is cursed and can't change at will. You learn new things every day - thanks MagisterCultuum

So, I take the current system is ok?
I started thinking about the changes because we have two werewolf types and it is confusing. I even got some bug reports that doviello do not create werewolves in combat...
But if we decide to keep the split, I think it should stay as it is... With some balancing it seems. Do you agree?

 

[Imuratep]

About suicidal dreams spell - I love flavor, but it might be tough to balance. Seems too powerful for low level casters, and if you have high level one near enemy city, you probably have more important things to do. But maybe it's possible to be castable from your city, affecting one city with OO anywhere in the world ? Something like Infernal worldspell, giving you choice of three or five best OO cities.

You have a point. How about this serial of synergistic spells.
To emulate that in Lovecraftian stories cults of the Overlords are acting outside the range of vision OO disciple units could use a Whiteout spell that works on coastal tiles instead on snow tiles. This way you don't have to lead war against the leader whose cities you want to affect with your spells.

Spell for all disciple units:
Cast time: 1 turn
Requires a coastal or ocean tile.
Grants the Hidden promotion to the caster

Disciple spell:
Cast time: 1 turn
Targets a city within 1 tile.
Effect: Spreads the OO religion. x% chance to remove the hidden promotion from the caster. If it is removed, declaration of war.

Priest spell:
Cast time: 1 turn
Targets a city within 1 tile.
Effect: 1 unhappiness that ends after one turn (similar to the spy task that spreads 8 unhappiness). Autocastable. x% chance to remove the hidden promotion from the caster. If it is removed, declaration of war.

Highpriest spell:
Cast time: 3 turns
Targets a city, that is determined by following values:
Overall city unhappiness
Present religion (in descending order): OO --> AV --> CoE --> Order --> WH --> RoK --> FoL --> Empyreon
Controller: All other leaders (if this is possible leaders that hate you --> leaders that like you) --> you
Effect: The city loses 3 population.

This means you have a High Priest that sits in one of your city pulling the strings behind the scenes. And an OO army with some disciples and priests that make sure the city next to them is the city that will be targeted by the Highpriest.

Concerning drowned: Has anyone read Song of Ice and Fire ? The worship of the Drowned God is a way I could imagine an OO initiation ritual.
In Song of Ice and Fire those who want to serve the Drowned God are in fact drowned by putting their head under water until they seem to be dead (in fact there is still a bit life in them). Then the priest gives the seemingly dead an artificial respiration. Some of the attendants survive the procedure, some of them die.

This brings me to another idea: The OO cult could have different levels of iniation. Each level risks killing the caster, but is also able to make it stronger.

You could emulate this by this spell:

Grip of the deep:
Unitrequirement: None
Techrequirement: Message from the Deep
Cost: x Gold
Deals 75% cold damage to the caster (this is an avarage value. Thus most will survive, but some will die). Upgrade caster to a zealot (if he is not a Cultist or a Stygian guard or a OO immortal). 50% chance that the caster gains the resistance to cold promotion. 100% to add the Grip of the Deep promotion.

Grip of the Deep
Effect: None.
100% chance to wear off at end of your turn. This promotion serves only to make sure that the spell Grip of the Deep has been casted.

Grip of Insanity:
Promotionrequirement: Grip of the Deep.
Techrequirement: Priesthood and Message from the Deep
Cost: x Gold.
Deals 75% mind damage to the caster. Upgrades the caster into a cultist (if he is not already a Stygian guard or a OO immortal). 50% chance that the caster gains the immunity to cold promotion. 50% chance that the caster gains the resistance to mind promotion. 100% chance that the caster gains the Grip of Insanity promotion. If the caster dies he will become a lunatic instead.

Concerning Cultists I imagine something different. Someone who wants to become a cultist first will be drowned again. Then he has to face his very own fears, a test of his mind that will decide if he will be sent into the asylum or the temple of his masters.
Grip of the Insanity
Effect: None. This promotion serves only to make sure that the spell Grip of Insanity has been casted.
100% chance to wear off at end of your turn.

After this the next step. The caster first will be drowned, then he will face his own fears, that will mix with images of the Overlords that more and more become real till they consume the body of the attendant and he becomes a Stygian guard. But only a few can control the new abilities they have gained and often their new form turns against the followers of the cult. I think Stygian Guards should be an almost perfect aspect of the physical form of the Overlords whilst only a small part of their mind still show in their guards. The full power of their mind will show in the immortal unit.

Glimpse from a world beyond:
Promotionrequirement: Grip of Insanity
Tech requirement: Fanaticism
Cost: x Gold.
Deals 75% chaos damage to the caster (or what new damage type do you consider best?). Upgrades the caster into a stygian guard (if he is not already an a OO immortal). 50% chance that the caster gains the immunity to mind promotion. 50% chance that the caster gains the resistance to chaos promotion. 100% chance that the caster gains the "Glimpse from a World beyond" promotion. If the caster dies he will become a barbarian Stygian Guard instead.

Glimpse from a World beyond:
Effect: None. This promotion serves only to make sure that the spell Glimpse from a World beyond has been casted.
100% chance to wear off at end of your turn.

In the last step the attendant faces the Overlords themselves, beingd beyond any human understanding. He opens them the deepest secrets of his soul and they open him their souls. He sees some of the greatest secrets of the universe, finally he understands some of their motives that make them intervene into the mortal interests and his soul and theirs become one until he comes back with a part of their soul within his soul. But as this experience is so powerful the danger that his own soul will be consumed is great. And if this happens endless screams spurt out from his mouth that let go all people people shout and kill and revell in joy. But this is nothing compared to the possibilities that await those who can keep a part from their souls alive.

Unity with the Overlords (Castable once per game)
Cast time: 10 turns
Promotionrequirement: Glimpse from a World beyond
Tech requirement: Divine Essence
Deals 75% spirit damage to the caster (or any damage type you consider appropriate). Upgrades the caster into an OO immortal (as Ahwaric said he wanted an OO unique unit for the immortal slot). 50% chance to gain immunity to chaos damage, 50% chance to gain resistance to spirit damage, 100% for unity with the Overlords, finally 20% chance for EVERY BENEFICIAL PROMOTION to be gained. The unit has gazed into the knowledge of the universe and suffered great perils to do so. If the unit dies in this process all cities suffer 100 riot turns (=10 ) and all units have 50% chance to become insane.

Unity with the Overlords:
+5 mind-affinity. Every killed unit transforms into a Stygian Guard on your side.

 

[Kalina]

Yes, they were part of Patria, and flavourwise are one of the eastern provinces of the Holy Roman Empire - not just Germans... I think you will recognize some of the references, Kalina.
I want to know if it is a good name - both regarding flavour (now that you know a bit more about it) and if it sounds good. Not much counter-ideas, but not really sure about current one.

For me, it sounds cool But opinion from english native speaker would be much more important IMHO

For now only slight modifications. But any ideas welcomed...

In my version I changed GoN to give 3 more XP, +50% Great General and XP in borders and removed happines and health bonuses. My Ljosalfar cities reached size 20-23 and I'm still have 3-10 surplus of health and happines (late game, have High Priests and Flurrys). I'd probably be running Humanism if all I get from GoN is more health and happines

Hmm, is it not possible? Then I should change this.

You cannot select it, so you can't delete it and it's still yours so you can't kill it. In single player I usually use WB but in MP it's annoying. BTW, ranged attack OoS is somehow connected with ability to see those attacks, I think. In recent game we were teamed so we could see everything other one could see and had few OoS even when using ranged attacks (we were both elves, so we decided to not turn them off).

One last question - any chance to add Infuence Driven War option ? I believe it's tough one to add, but asking won't hurt

EDIT: Imuratep, nice idea to make OO disciples hidden on coast. They should be hidden cult anyway. Maybe they should be hidden on coast and in cities (fits flavorwise IMHO) so you don't need spell to spread OO in cities ?

 

[Imuratep]

New idea in my post above. Look if you like it.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yes, they were part of Patria, and flavourwise are one of the eastern provinces of the Holy Roman Empire - not just Germans... I think you will recognize some of the references, Kalina.
I want to know if it is a good name - both regarding flavour (now that you know a bit more about it) and if it sounds good. Not much counter-ideas, but not really sure about current one.

What you describved is I think lawfull good - and that is order.

Exactly - and I will probably add white hand

First off, I like the name Palatinate. Sounds more latin than eastern European, of course, but it sounds good.

On Dr. Doom - In his own country he was most definitely Lawful Good. At worst, just Lawful. He took away freedoms in order to enhance their quality of life... Not really evil, IMO. Not somewhere I'd want to live, but not evil. Comic writers tend to slip social commentary into their work, and Latveria was an anti-America. Something readers could understand as being desirable to some, yet repugnant to themselves.

On the White Hand... Do you have any plans as to how? I like my implementation, but you may have something better.