Orbis 0.30 workshop

[arkham4269]

I've written a rough idea I had in response to Ahwaric idea that he wants to sort of get rid of a lot of the Tolkeinesque flavor to the back story. To keep the post length down, I've written in the attached Word document.

A quick synopsis is this. Instead of The One creating everything along with Angels and the like that eventually become corrupted and cause a War In Heaven, I thought it might be better to instead do a Orbis take on the movie The Dark Crystal.

In very Brief into Primal Chaos comes The Crystal. This Crystal splits this primal energy into Chaos and Order who in turn use the Crystal to unite into The One and form the framework of Creation. In doing so the Two become Four as Death and Life are created. The Four agree they want to do more so they unite into The One and create the primal Erebus. In doing so they create the Eight which are two pairs of four, the Elementals (Air, Fire, Water, Earth) and the Mystics (Mind, Soul/Spirit, Force & Magic)

The Elementals go down and create a race for each of them using the Crystal singularly. Later the Mystics unite together to create one race, Man. Everything goes great until Life becomes unhappy at the mortality of all the races and wants to give them immortality. However, in using the Crystal do to do this upsets the balance between Life and Death and Order and Chaos causing the Crystal to crack, casting shards of it to rain down upon Erebus creating the mana nodes. The shattering of the Crystal rips the fabric of reality and splits the Gods into two versions of themselves.

Again, this is a quickie version, read the whole thing. One reason I like this is because in this history, before mana nodes magic was almost all shamanistic using spirit guides from The Mystics or calling upon the Elementals. So at first magic would be basic and you'd call forth minor elementals to do most of your work w/o needing mana nodes. As the mastery of those nodes happens, however, you really get into heavy duty magic where you could alter reality on a basic level. Since the nodes are shattered pieces of the fundamental piece of Creation, the use of them is dangerous but also filled with great, great power.

Enjoy!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Blasphemy!

 

[arkham4269]

Blasphemy!

Well I've always been a good heretical infidel.

Personally I've been thinking that regardless of what gets done, I think the idea of having magic earlier would be nice. My thoughts are you would have the shaman available at Mysticism and they would have really basic spells that might not even be determined by mana, but by what terrain they are on at the time. So a shaman in the hills might be able to summon a weak earth elemental for example or if in the woods cast the spell that helps defend in the woods. These shamans would need their Civ's pagan temple to able to be created.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Summoning even a weak earth elemental seems like too much.


Kael did however say that Man was using magic long before Ceridwen taught Kylorin how. They did not know how it worked, but there have always been those with strong enough wills to subconsciously bend reality to their liking. The Shamen of the Age of Dragons thought their prayers were being answered by minor gods and nature spirits, but some of them were in fact wielding arcane powers for themselves.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... I like the idea of a 'shaman' for some of the more wild civs. Doviello and Archos, principally.

Had a discussion on #Erebus last night with ExMachina about a tier1 arcane unit, for leaders with the Arcane trait. 2, no free promotion, can not build new mana nodes (meaning it can only learn your palace manas and any UF mana you get), obsoleted by the adept unit.

Going with that, we could have the Shaman as a UU replacement for it, maybe? I like the idea, though it would need some interesting spells to make it work.

 

[Ahwaric]

New idea in my post above. Look if you like it.

I have read it all. First, why all of the spells have to be cast in one turn? 100% expire chance of promotion that is required for the next step means just that.

Second, it is quite complicated. Both for the player (especially a new one) and especially the AI. It is going to kill all its potential cultists and high priests, trust me.
But I like the idea of trials one must to endure and the final revelation - just need to find something simple and balanced. Also, I think we need to consider if it is fair to introduce it just for the OO (octopus overlords or old ones should it be?)

Unity with the Overlords (Castable once per game)
Cast time: 10 turns
Promotionrequirement: Glimpse from a World beyond
Tech requirement: Divine Essence
Deals 75% spirit damage to the caster (or any damage type you consider appropriate). Upgrades the caster into an OO immortal (as Ahwaric said he wanted an OO unique unit for the immortal slot). 50% chance to gain immunity to chaos damage, 50% chance to gain resistance to spirit damage, 100% for unity with the Overlords, finally 20% chance for EVERY BENEFICIAL PROMOTION to be gained. The unit has gazed into the knowledge of the universe and suffered great perils to do so. If the unit dies in this process all cities suffer 100 riot turns (=10 ) and all units have 50% chance to become insane.

That is both overpowered/broken and too random. You will either get an instopable unit or your cities will suffer - a lot and for a long time. Even 5 from bard event can be hard. Even more in late game when you are at happy cap already. Sorry, it has to be something else - less bonuses, less risk.
Also, I do not recall saying anything regardning OO unique immortal. Not a bad idea though.

In my version I changed GoN to give 3 more XP, +50% Great General and XP in borders and removed happines and health bonuses.

That is a bit militaristic. It is all about combat, not sure we should go that way.

One last question - any chance to add Infuence Driven War option ? I believe it's tough one to add, but asking won't hurt

Not sure if I recall it right, it is the one that changes culture of the plot depending on who won the battle? I am not sure I like it. But some aspects might be nice - let me know what do you like in that option.

EDIT: Imuratep, nice idea to make OO disciples hidden on coast. They should be hidden cult anyway. Maybe they should be hidden on coast and in cities (fits flavorwise IMHO) so you don't need spell to spread OO in cities ?

My thoughts exactly. Will check if it is possible. In fact, some of the religions make sense if their missionaries can enter enemy borders (including cities) and spread their faith. But again, balance. You will be unable to stop them, unless following theocracy.

For me, it sounds cool But opinion from english native speaker would be much more important IMHO

First off, I like the name Palatinate. Sounds more latin than eastern European, of course, but it sounds good.

When will you people learn that though we were (not willingly) part of soviet block for forty years, there is no reason we should be called eastern europe.
Europe streches till Ural mountains, so eastern europe is russia plus parts of ukraine and belarus - that is geography
Austria is not really to the west from here - it is to the south. Prague is more to the west than Vienna. Krakow is almost as much to the west as stockholm (that is relative geography)
we adopted roman catholicism & latin alphabet - that is culture
So, we prefer the term central europe. And if it has to be divided to just east & west, it was always said that we were the easternmost part of western europe - that is history
But do not take that too serious, I do not

Anyway, thanks for your support. I will keep the name then. And just for the record - the term is latin. It was later used for the areas of HRE that were governed not by duke or king, but by Emperor's delegate (and it is where the civ name comes from). Also, the term was sometimes used as an elegant (=foreign) way to call polish wojewoda (one that leads warriors to battle, and the highest ranking offical of the province)

On Dr. Doom - In his own country he was most definitely Lawful Good. At worst, just Lawful. He took away freedoms in order to enhance their quality of life... Not really evil, IMO. Not somewhere I'd want to live, but not evil. Comic writers tend to slip social commentary into their work, and Latveria was an anti-America. Something readers could understand as being desirable to some, yet repugnant to themselves.

Well, recently I feel like some people in America decided it is better to be safe than free. But well, it might be just me.

On the White Hand... Do you have any plans as to how? I like my implementation, but you may have something better.

I did not yet started any work towards it. I think I will move some illian stuff to the white hand, and I am sure I will use big pieces of your work (if you do not mind). But then I will adjust it - probably forever, it is like an obsession.

I've written a rough idea I had in response to Ahwaric idea that he wants to sort of get rid of a lot of the Tolkeinesque flavor to the back story. To keep the post length down, I've written in the attached Word document.

Well, that is massive change.
I did not say I want to change all the cosmology - but expand and adjust it a bit. Especially since it is an enormous work to redesign things according to completly new flavour. So sorry, not going to do it.

Blasphemy!

Exactly. But a creative one.

Well I've always been a good heretical infidel.

Technically, heretic & infidel (or pagan) are two different things, can't be both at once.

Edit: regarding early arcane units, good idea
There is a place for some king of hedge wizard or shaman - knowing a few basic tricks practised for centuries, not one trained at magic guild. It does not need to upgrade to adept, but rather to mage. Best would be if it would be weaker than mage (no mana nodes, no free promotion) and still obsoleted by adept (the ways of teaching magic have changed), but had some minor other bonus.

Edit2:
I hope I did not annoyed & offended anyone by the above response. Just sharing some thoughts, in not so serious way.

 

[arkham4269]

Hmm... I like the idea of a 'shaman' for some of the more wild civs. Doviello and Archos, principally.

Well I think that during the Age of Winter, only the basic magic remained and as all Civs develop Mysticism, they gain access to shamans. As I said, I think it would be interesting to have basic shaman spells that are more terrain-based to show the shamans calling on the spirits of the land and the like. This is a very basic form of magic, not merely 'primitive' - so it is better to say that certain Civs like the Doviello don't show an inclination to go further into magic via harnessing the power of the mana nodes.

Also, I must say in creating my alternative to the FfH back-story, I got to thinking. I don't really see skeletons as being something you should be able to summon via Death magic. I mean they aren't undead like vampires or zombies but merely animated skeletons given direction by the spellcaster. I think they should be created via enchantment magic. Plus, I think Death mana really is Undeath mana. I mean you aren't summoning the dead back who come willingly (as do the warriors of Valhalla) but are dealing with spirits that have refused to pass on into Death like specters and wraiths.

Again while writing up my 'Elemental Erebus' it made me think that a lot of the 'evil' in Erebus comes from folks monkeying around with Life (trying to extend it like the Scions, feeding off of it in that undead way of the Calabim)

 

[arkham4269]

Technically, heretic & infidel (or pagan) are two different things, can't be both at once.

Sure you can! You just are a heretic to one group and an infidel to another!

One thing about a shaman is I would think that if they upgraded to mage, they would in a way sort of be a return to the Summoner type of unit that FfH had back in the day since they would probably be gaining promotions to increase the strength of their summoned elementals. I don't see this as a problem since depending on your mana mix, you tend to do this already.

 

[Valkrionn]

Not sure if I recall it right, it is the one that changes culture of the plot depending on who won the battle? I am not sure I like it. But some aspects might be nice - let me know what do you like in that option.

I've been wanting to merge it for a while, was waiting for Opera to finish it (She was adding some tags I wanted to use. ), but since she's not going back to it I'll do it myself.

My plans are for it to be a basic feature, available to all, but for it to play a larger effect for Conqueror leaders... They gain more territory from victorious combat, but lose more when the lose.

My thoughts exactly. Will check if it is possible. In fact, some of the religions make sense if their missionaries can enter enemy borders (including cities) and spread their faith. But again, balance. You will be unable to stop them, unless following theocracy.

Should be possible. Autoacquire promotion requiring Coast or Ocean, making them invisible. A second requiring the unit is in a city.

When will you people learn that though we were part of soviet block for forty years, there is no reason we should be called eastern europe.
Europe streches till Ural mountains, so eastern europe is russia plus parts of ukraine and belarus - that is geography
Austria is not really to the west from here - it is to the south. Prague is more to the west than Vienna. Krakow is almost as much to the west as stockholm (that is relative geography)
we adopted roman catholicism & latin alphabet - that is culture
So, we prefer the term central europe. And if it has to be divided to just east & west, it was always said that we were the easternmost part of western europe - that is history
But do not take that too serious, I do not

Honestly, the fact that you were in the soviet block is what causes us to lump you in as 'Eastern'. Classes are starting to use the 'Central Europe' term, but it's still habit in my case. Even though most of my family is from Germany.

Anyway, thanks for your support. I will keep the name then. And just for the record - the term is latin. It was later used for the areas of HRE that were governed not by duke or king, but by Emperor's delegate (and it is where the civ name comes from). Also, the term was sometimes used as an elegant (=foreign) way to call polish wojewoda (one that leads warriors to battle, and the highest ranking offical of the province)

Yes, I'm aware of the term's origins. I'm a history buff. At least, up until the renaissance, then I lose interest.

Well, recently I feel like some people in America decided it is better to be safe than free. But well, it might be just me.

I agree, but I'm not one of those people.

I did not yet started any work towards it. I think I will move some illian stuff to the white hand, and I am sure I will use big pieces of your work (if you do not mind). But then I will adjust it - probably forever, it is like an obsession.

Hehe, I don't mind at all. In fact, if I like your tweaks better expect them to go back the other way.

Edit: regarding early arcane units, good idea
There is a place for some king of hedge wizard or shaman - knowing a few basic tricks practised for centuries, not one trained at magic guild. It does not need to upgrade to adept, but rather to mage. Best would be if it would be weaker than mage (no mana nodes, no free promotion) and still obsoleted by adept (the ways of teaching magic have changed), but had some minor other bonus.

Edit2:
I hope I did not annoyed & offended anyone by the above response. Just sharing some thoughts, in not so serious way.

Your ideas there are pretty much what I said.

My plan would be for it to be available from start (like Scouts or Warriors). Limiting it to Arcane leaders shows they were able to preserve some magic across the AoI, though it's severely limited.

Well I think that during the Age of Winter, only the basic magic remained and as all Civs develop Mysticism, they gain access to shamans. As I said, I think it would be interesting to have basic shaman spells that are more terrain-based to show the shamans calling on the spirits of the land and the like. This is a very basic form of magic, not merely 'primitive' - so it is better to say that certain Civs like the Doviello don't show an inclination to go further into magic via harnessing the power of the mana nodes.

My main issue with that is that for one, the unit would tend to obsoleted pretty quickly, and two, why assume that much magic has been lost? I'm sure some leaders were able to preserve it. Maybe as a combination of the two, Arcane leaders get a version able to learn normal spells (idea I proposed), and others get a Shamanistic unit?

 

[Kalina]

Second, it is quite complicated. Both for the player (especially a new one) and especially the AI. It is going to kill all its potential cultists and high priests, trust me.
But I like the idea of trials one must to endure and the final revelation - just need to find something simple and balanced. Also, I think we need to consider if it is fair to introduce it just for the OO (octopus overlords or old ones should it be?)

I agree. I thought about something that is similar to normal FFH ways, yet a little different. How about Cultist being able to upgrade to Speakers (and Zealots to Cultists) via ritual. It would cost some gold (Ingenuity is 50%, so I think it should be 75% of normal upgrade cost). Such ritual/trial would have 80% to upgrade normally (you just save some gold), 10% to kill unit and 10% to upgrade and give unit special promotion (like cold resistance, +1 cold combat or something). So you're saving some gold and have chance to get something extra, but you're risking your level 6 cultist.

That is a bit militaristic. It is all about combat, not sure we should go that way.

I see them like Wood Elves in Warhammer RPG - excellent defenders of their homeland. Aside from free xp, bonuses only apply while defending and it seems to fit FoL with their treants, at least IMHO. But I'm just saying that GoN is not as good as it used to be and it might not be good enough reason to research Hidden Path (it gives Woodsman II and hero, both not very important) especially with Religion category of civics gone.

Not sure if I recall it right, it is the one that changes culture of the plot depending on who won the battle? I am not sure I like it. But some aspects might be nice - let me know what do you like in that option.

Yes It's very minor thing. Usually it comes into play when enemy have valuable resource near my borders and I'm not powerful enough to risk full scale war or enemy culture is creeping into my lands and I don't want or cannot afford war with them (by war I mean creating army strong enough to take their cities, not only to win a battle or two). With influence driven war I can win a couple of fights (with hidden nationality unit preferably) to get control over those tiles. Now when I think about it, how about spy mission giving you some culture in selected tile ?

My thoughts exactly. Will check if it is possible. In fact, some of the religions make sense if their missionaries can enter enemy borders (including cities) and spread their faith. But again, balance. You will be unable to stop them, unless following theocracy.

If it's possible to give them hidden nationality when inside someone's borders (spell that gives them HN and Hidden?) enemy will be able to kill them if able to spot them somehow.

 

[arkham4269]

My main issue with that is that for one, the unit would tend to obsoleted pretty quickly, and two, why assume that much magic has been lost? I'm sure some leaders were able to preserve it. Maybe as a combination of the two, Arcane leaders get a version able to learn normal spells (idea I proposed), and others get a Shamanistic unit?

First off, I would try to make the spells useful in a combat support way. If there is one thing I learned playing D&D starting back in the early 70's is that before you can get magic that is useful in a direct way (I kill you with a fireball) the way to go is to have useful magic that helps out the fighters. (I make you drop your weapon or trip and then the fighters have at you) I think Shaman would always be useful if many of their spells were of this type and as Ahwaric said, they'd promote to mages directly. I mean they really aren't mages but more animistic priests. Plus I think it would be neat if they could summon simple elementals such as rock, wind and wood or perhaps could summon animals. However since animals can be taken and used as a promotion, perhaps their summon animal would be more like giving a unit a temporary animal promotion for that turn. Being able to summon the spirit of the buffalo and give a combat unit a one turn +20% strength bonus really would never go out of style.

As to your second point, well that is a rather sore point to me. How much is retained and how much isn't? How much is the tech just recreating the infrastructure or actually rediscovering/inventing tech? Take writing. I'm sure most races didn't lose the ability, just that ability to have more than a few who knew the skill. So when you research 'writing' you are really researching Schooling or such that allows more people to know the skill. I mean while the races of Erebus had a really rough time in the Age of Winter, they still remembered what they had lost. I guess that's why I hate the use of the basic warrior as a guy with a wooden club and a bear loincloth; it's not like Civ where humanity is coming up with this stuff for the first time. I mean a basic warrior should probably look like he's got some sort of cuirbouille leather armour.

I don't know, it seems silly that the early tech has stuff like animal mastery and the like; it's not like everyone forgot that you can keep pigs and sheep and the like. Plus if they lost the ability to hunt and use leather/hides, what did they eat during the Age of Winter? So I have ALWAYS felt the early techs need to be reworked. I'd rather see much of the stuff that is allowed by animal mastery, hunting and farming to be 'free' from the Turn One, but then have more of what we've started to see with the plow and crop rotations that allow for bigger yields.

 

[arkham4269]

Hmm... I like the idea of a 'shaman' for some of the more wild civs. Doviello and Archos, principally.

By the way, I will again loudly reiterate my idea that the Archos be ported into Orbis but instead of being Humans, they be goblins! The whole spider angle works well since even in Tolkein goblins have been associated with living underground and being in dark woods where the spiders dwell.

 

[Ahwaric]

My plans are for it to be a basic feature, available to all, but for it to play a larger effect for Conqueror leaders... They gain more territory from victorious combat, but lose more when the lose.

Good idea. But I am still not sure I like this whole thing in the first place...

Should be possible. Autoacquire promotion requiring Coast or Ocean, making them invisible. A second requiring the unit is in a city.

Yes, but I meant if spreading via invisible unit will work. But no idea why it should not...

Honestly, the fact that you were in the soviet block is what causes us to lump you in as 'Eastern'. Classes are starting to use the 'Central Europe' term, but it's still habit in my case. Even though most of my family is from Germany.

I know, it is simply annoying sometimes. Or funny, I was really suprised to when I read "the biggest orthodox church in wester europe" - and it was in helsinki...

Yes, I'm aware of the term's origins. I'm a history buff. At least, up until the renaissance, then I lose interest.

Exactly as I do - that is why it is not likely that Orbis will ever feature anything after renaissance. I was just responding to your sentence that it sounds more latin than eastern european...

Your ideas there are pretty much what I said.

Ok, so I pretty much agree.
But I think they should be avaliable for everyone. For some civs they should be the only adept-level casters (doviello), and arcane ones would have better versions (or will be able to build adepts earlier)

I agree. I thought about something that is similar to normal FFH ways, yet a little different.

I like it much better. Still needs work but is a good start.

I see them like Wood Elves in Warhammer RPG - excellent defenders of their homeland.

I agree, but I want a little extra there. So it would be guardian of the nature, not guardian of the homeland

Now when I think about it, how about spy mission giving you some culture in selected tile ?

I like that better than influence driven combat. It does not seem very realistic.
Spies should already be able to plant some culture to the city. I am not sure how to make them affect just one city, but I should be able to do it usig influence driven war code.
Also, it would improve espionage by making it more usefull.

If it's possible to give them hidden nationality when inside someone's borders (spell that gives them HN and Hidden?) enemy will be able to kill them if able to spot them somehow.

I think that should be possible. Not sure AI will be able to stop human missionaries, but a player will be able.

By the way, I will again loudly reiterate my idea that the Archos be ported into Orbis but instead of being Humans, they be goblins! The whole spider angle works well since even in Tolkein goblins have been associated with living underground and being in dark woods where the spiders dwell.

A nice idea. But I am torn here, as I like goblins being part of the greenskin civilization, as a recon one.
But my main problem is the lack of graphics - I had problems to just fill clan recon line

 

[arkham4269]

A nice idea. But I am torn here, as I like goblins being part of the greenskin civilization, as a recon one. But my main problem is the lack of graphics - I had problems to just feel clan recon line

Well if the graphic problem could be fixed, the other problem is easy; switch the goblin recon units to kobolds. The current graphics always looked like kobolds to me anyway. Boring as it may be, but I always saw goblins looking as orcs do to men but to dwarves. Same basic shape but green and a little less stout.

Of course I always wish the Hippus could be made into all centaur race.

 

[Valkrionn]

First off, I would try to make the spells useful in a combat support way. If there is one thing I learned playing D&D starting back in the early 70's is that before you can get magic that is useful in a direct way (I kill you with a fireball) the way to go is to have useful magic that helps out the fighters. (I make you drop your weapon or trip and then the fighters have at you) I think Shaman would always be useful if many of their spells were of this type and as Ahwaric said, they'd promote to mages directly. I mean they really aren't mages but more animistic priests. Plus I think it would be neat if they could summon simple elementals such as rock, wind and wood or perhaps could summon animals. However since animals can be taken and used as a promotion, perhaps their summon animal would be more like giving a unit a temporary animal promotion for that turn. Being able to summon the spirit of the buffalo and give a combat unit a one turn +20% strength bonus really would never go out of style.

I completely agree that the unit should be support, rather than actual attack; I still like the idea of an early adept better for Arcane leaders, but again, Shamans would be nice for others.

As to your second point, well that is a rather sore point to me. How much is retained and how much isn't? How much is the tech just recreating the infrastructure or actually rediscovering/inventing tech? Take writing. I'm sure most races didn't lose the ability, just that ability to have more than a few who knew the skill. So when you research 'writing' you are really researching Schooling or such that allows more people to know the skill. I mean while the races of Erebus had a really rough time in the Age of Winter, they still remembered what they had lost. I guess that's why I hate the use of the basic warrior as a guy with a wooden club and a bear loincloth; it's not like Civ where humanity is coming up with this stuff for the first time. I mean a basic warrior should probably look like he's got some sort of cuirbouille leather armour.

I don't know, it seems silly that the early tech has stuff like animal mastery and the like; it's not like everyone forgot that you can keep pigs and sheep and the like. Plus if they lost the ability to hunt and use leather/hides, what did they eat during the Age of Winter? So I have ALWAYS felt the early techs need to be reworked. I'd rather see much of the stuff that is allowed by animal mastery, hunting and farming to be 'free' from the Turn One, but then have more of what we've started to see with the plow and crop rotations that allow for bigger yields.

That complaint is the exact reason Xienwolf added the 'Build without techs' feature in FF, and why I've kept it in RifE. The people still remember how to build houses, mines, farms, how to herd animals, and so on... They just don't do it WELL, hence the slow build speed. Once they learn the correct way to do it, the build speed goes up again.

By the way, I will again loudly reiterate my idea that the Archos be ported into Orbis but instead of being Humans, they be goblins! The whole spider angle works well since even in Tolkein goblins have been associated with living underground and being in dark woods where the spiders dwell.

You'd like something we're working on for RifE then.

Ok, so I pretty much agree.
But I think they should be avaliable for everyone. For some civs they should be only adept-level casters (doviello), and arcane ones would have better versions (or will be able to build adepts earlier)

Yeah, that's why I like the shaman idea; Shamans for most, something more like adepts for Arcane.

A nice idea. But I am torn here, as I like goblins being part of the greenskin civilization, as a recon one.
But my main problem is the lack of graphics - I had problems to just feel clan rcon line

You should get on Wave more often.

Edit: Or at least, check this thread in our group forum. http://forums.civfanatics.com/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=562

Also, RifE has (or will; Next patch, though our testers will have this part soon) completely changed the Clan recon line.

 

[Kalina]

I agree, but I want a little extra there. So it would be guardian of the nature, not guardian of the homeland

You're limited here by what civic can affect, right ? Some ideas include faster growth of ancient forest, faster spread of natural resources (deer, duskwood, etc), trade by forest without roads (it's done via tech ?) or unique improvement giving extra commerce in forest but I have no idea what can be done via civic.

I think that should be possible. Not sure AI will be able to stop human missionaries, but a player will b able.

Problem here is spotting hidden units. If those missionaries can be seen by recon units, AI have fair chance to spot them. Alternatively, Hidden promotion might have small chance (5-10%?) to disappear every turn representing them being compromised. AI is pretty good at killing weak HN/barbarian units near their cities.

 

[arkham4269]

That complaint is the exact reason Xienwolf added the 'Build without techs' feature in FF, and why I've kept it in RifE. The people still remember how to build houses, mines, farms, how to herd animals, and so on... They just don't do it WELL, hence the slow build speed. Once they learn the correct way to do it, the build speed goes up again.

Yes I agree. That way when you research "hunting" I guess what you really are discovering is woodcraft, better tanning methods, and the like. Same with mining I guess since how hard is it to dig a quarry?

You'd like something we're working on for RifE then.

Fine, use up more of my little spare time to look at your modmod.

Also, RifE has (or will; Next patch, though our testers will have this part soon) completely changed the Clan recon line.

Well I still think you could replace the goblins with kobolds. I mean while I know Wargs are big, that would be a BIG wolf to carry an orc. Regardless of what you do, I highly approve of removing the lizards out of the Clan.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yes I agree. That way when you research "hunting" I guess what you really are discovering is woodcraft, better tanning methods, and the like. Same with mining I guess since how hard is it to dig a quarry?

Exactly. The same mechanic in BtS would just be wrong; But for a world where the people were once civilized, and are coming back to that state, it fits. Would fit in a post apocalyptic mod as well.

Fine, use up more of my little spare time to look at your modmod.

Well, it's not ready yet. Nor will it be in the patch coming up soon... Though the Clan changes and the 'Production Overflow' mechanic (which we added as a Trait mechanic, not a gameoption... Not all civs/leaders will get it) were done to accommodate it.

Well I still think you could replace the goblins with kobolds. I mean while I know Wargs are big, that would be a BIG wolf to carry an orc. Regardless of what you do, I highly approve of removing the lizards out of the Clan.

Both goblins and lizards are gone from the Clan. It's entirely Orc. It's also gaining a new feature, which it will share with the Bannor... Emphasizing the fact that the two come from the same source.

The Recon line is made up of the Boss units... Which are commanders, in the FF/RifE method. They can hire barb units (Only them, and the Clan Fort Commanders are able to do this now... Only barb civ left at this point anyway), and lead your army, though they themselves aren't too strong. The initial idea was for them to be able to dominate nearby barb units if they had open command slots, but that used enough python that it was decided just to use the hire spells.

 

[Valkrionn]

Ah, Ahwaric, one last thing; RifE recently got a team forum. If you'd like access, just go to My Account, Group Memberships, search for Mod: Civ4 FFH ModMod Rise from Erebus, and join. I'll approve it.

 

[Imuratep]

I have read it all. First, why all of the spells have to be cast in one turn? 100% expire chance of promotion that is required for the next step means just that.

There is a lot of thought in this mechanic. Though if I am the only one who understands it it's probably too complicated for the game.
Yes all the spells should be casted in one turn but only if you have gained the right promotion.
It should work like this:
1. Step: Unit: Casts grip of the deep. Is upgraded. Gains the resistance to cold promotion. Heals until it has all HP again.
2. Step: After that the unit casts grip of the deep again. Loses a moderate amount of HP (because of resistance to cold). Casts grip of insanity. Loses all but a few HP. Gains immunity to cold and resistance to mind. Regenerates until it has all HP again.
3. Step: After the unit casts grip of the deep again. Loses no HP (because of immunity to cold). Casts grip of insanity. Loses a moderately amount of HP (because of resistance to mind). Casts glimpse from a world beyond and loses all but a few HP. Gains immunity to mind and resistance to chaos. Regenerates until it has all HP again.
4. Step: Grip of the deep --> no damage. Grip of insanity --> no damage, Glimpse from a world beyond --> moderate damage Unity with the Overlords --> nearly lethal damage.

Second, it is quite complicated. Both for the player (especially a new one) and especially the AI. It is going to kill all its potential cultists and high priests, trust me. But I like the idea of trials one must to endure and the final revelation - just need to find something simple and balanced. Also, I think we need to consider if it is fair to introduce it just for the OO (octopus overlords or old ones should it be?)

I understand the AI issue. I will think of something more simple. Perhaps it could be more an alternative than a necessary condition. If you do this the AI is not obliged to use it (They don't use Arena and similar effects, do they?) You can still build and upgrade these units normally, but if you want to improve your units going a risky, but also quite potent path you can use similar spells.
The trial mechanic could probably be used by other religions too. An Order trial that demands a crusade for the greater good, an Empyreon trial that emphasizes on personal enlightenment or an Ashen Veil trial that summons several demons that get more powerful when the initiate advances (and also increase the AC). But the final revelation is something that is linked to the Old Ones and thus should be OO only or their revelation should be the most intriguing. No god of the FFH universe is as mysterious as the Octopus Overlords, noone knows their true motives and thus the unspeakable knowledge they possess is so tempting to mortals. This idea could be used to give the Amurites a strong tendancy to choose OO. Seeking for forsaken near godlike wisdom - what fits them better? (And of course right now my ideas focus on the Old Ones).

That is both overpowered/broken and too random. You will either get an instopable unit or your cities will suffer - a lot and for a long time. Even 5 from bard event can be hard. Even more in late game when you are at happy cap already. Sorry, it has to be something else - less bonuses, less risk.

Ok I see. Sometimes I get overwhelm by my flavorcentered ideas and this is the result . You could change this easily to make it powerful but not broken.
1. possibility: Just a very big amount of XP and a promotion that fits the trials. Like +1 chaos strength +1 mind strength + 1 cold strength +1 spirit strength (as those were the tests you had to make). A unit with +4 strength overall won't be broken in lategame. The death of the unit should be bad enough as you can cast the last only once.
2. possibility: Just a very big amount of XP and a promotion that emphasizes on the control of the mind the Overlords possess. Something like +30% chance to gain control of defeated units. Death of the unit as a penalty
3. possibility: Just 20% chance for every possible promotion to be gained. Death of the unit as a penalty.

My thoughts exactly. Will check if it is possible. In fact, some of the religions make sense if their missionaries can enter enemy borders (including cities) and spread their faith. But again, balance. You will be unable to stop them, unless following theocracy.

Could you introduce them as OO spies? Spread OO religion could be a spy task. If you go that way you already have a counter - the anti-espionage system from BtS.
If it is possible the spells I proposed could also be spy tasks. The suicidal dreams spell would be balanced by costing quite an amount of . The spell that makes people unhappy is already a spy task.

(octopus overlords or old ones should it be?)

If you work with schisms, this could be two direction of the worship of the same entities. Those who call them Octopus Overlords will offer their will freely to their new masters, while those who call them Old Ones see them as powerful, but dangerous entities that can lead them, but still have to be studied carefully to avoid losing yourself in their net of dreams and nightmares.

By the way, I will again loudly reiterate my idea that the Archos be ported into Orbis but instead of being Humans, they be goblins! The whole spider angle works well since even in Tolkein goblins have been associated with living underground and being in dark woods where the spiders dwell.

For Goblins I think it would be cooler to create the Scorpion Clan. They could live in deserts (as scorpions live in deserts too) and thus would be a concurrent of the Malakim (which IIRC right now are the only one that live there).
I think for the Archos another race would be more interesting: Dwarfs. In the Bestiary of Erebus Duergar (evil dwarfs) are already mentioned without a civ existing in FFH. Like creepy giant spiders they live in cave systems (remember shelob from LotR?). They already have resistance to poison. Thus 1. it makes for them a lot of sense to worship a spider 2. an unexplored theme would be activated 3. right now dwarves only fulfill existing clichés 4. the models for the units already exist (which could be changed by reskins to give them a "darker" look).

PS: Now for something completely different: Please port the Homestead mechanic from Magister Modmod. It's simple and gives the Grigori an effective mechanic beyond early warmongering. Especially in combination with a free specialist per Homestead in your capital.

Edit: I have thought of updated versions of the trial spells. They are in my last post. See if you like them better. IMHO they are much cleaner, the flavor behind them is clearer and their base mechanic can be used for trial spells of other religions. Also you don't have to cast them all in the same turn and they aren't requirement for upgrading your units (and thus should not be an AI issue).