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Orbis 2 The New Beggining (for civ IV) brainstorming

Discussion in 'Orbis Modmod' started by Ahwaric, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. Tschuggi

    Tschuggi SNAFU

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    The slave system is great, adds a lot to the game, especially the revolts. You should take a look into city growth, health and happiness and the revolts. It makes the game challenging and you need to pay attention on how to develop and manage your civ mor accuratly. And religious rebellions... great, when a whole civ of followers to another religion pops up in front of your city and claims to have their holy city back.
    The blackening of the map is very good, but it costs a lot of ram.
    Regarding settlers depending on tech and time: yes, I agree, settling before bronze age should not be possible. But you should be able to conquer cities. Did you take a look into the "surrender-mechanic" of PAE? Very interesting, especially for no settlers and one city challenge game option.
    What did you think about the cults and natural disasters, katastrophes and plagues?
    SOD-Rebellions / army revolutions? Improvement costs? Unit upkeep? Trade via rivers?

    Greez,

    Tschuggi
     
  2. copx

    copx Chieftain

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    I am glad to hear that Orbis is back. Used to be my favorite FfH modmod.

    I like the "less magic" and "steampunk" ideas. However, if you stuff all the steampunk content into the end game most people will never see it. I think it's fair to say that >90% of all FfH (modmod) games are terminated before reaching the end game.

    Maybe you should drop the whole pseudo-medieval era and start in the pseudo-renaissance? I.e. renaissance -> steampunk -> late steampunk

    Finally, I hope you will release Orbis 1.1 soon. I feel like playing Orbis again and the less buggy version would be preferable of course.

    However, the only critical problem with Orbis 1 was the AI. It was BAD, barely understood the game at all. Maybe you can copy code from other modmods. The Master of Mana guys have finally managed to write a competitive FfH AI with version 1.3. Seriously, it's brutal. The AI actually knows how to attack! :eek:
     
  3. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    I'd love to see an Orbis 2 for Civ IV.
     
  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    Hi'.
    I'm reading the thread and noting my comments as they come.


    - I luv you ahwaric. Well thanks for coming back to us. I won't be able to help you mod for three reasons : I'm no modder (but interested), I'm starting a new job so I need to devote my time to it. I'm gonna be a father for the second time. I anticipate much sleeplessness :D and much "not-any-free-time"ness.

    - For branching the techs. You mentionned something that I propose you to expand : what if many tech were exclusives from other techs (maybe giving some units and maybe some promotions that stay after upgrade). Why have all tech attainable by a civ ? (and not only the magic vs tech). I mean, most times, when one idea works people don't go for an alternative idea. they push their advantage. Only the opponent goes for alternatives.
    I mean, If someone invented a stronger, more easy to handle repeatable crossbow or one handed crossbows, do you think the musket would have passed the filter ? no, as it would have been inferior to the advanced crossbow. Then no development would have been made for pistols or rifles. A "proof" is that china and korea didn't use musket nor rifles while they had powder. The crossbows were more powerful than early muskets. Europe didn't have such advanced crossbows and we got muskets to have mass production replace elitists longbows. (Am I clear enough?)

    maybe tech A and B are exclusive, but each can lead to tech C. and then at tech C, one will have longbows and the other will have crossbows ; Or maybe crossbows and mechanics gives cho-ku-nu (repeatable crossbows) while longbows + mechanics gives pulley bow. (strogner, but needs more maintenance)

    well, I know I suck for exemples...

    - for immortal heroes : why not having heroes that may upgrade over time, like the shoguns in a CIII mod I don't remember. (well, people already talked about it).
     
  5. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    I thought again about some things:
    -why do the animalistic civ with totems and all have to be a dovielloesc tundra dwelling civ ?
    why not elves ? like the forest elves ? or maybe a preamerican or african like civ ? like the chislev, with warriors that have to master a lion (african) or an eagle/bison?

    - why not have the early possibility to tame wolves/bears (for mounted) instead of horses ? once the choice is made, it would be hard to go for the other kind... Imagine if man had tamed and bred wolves, aurochs/buffalo and bears for mounted warfare, during tens of thousand of years.. we would have pure-blood wolves and pureblood bull instead of pure-blood stalions...
    it would of course have some impact on ... promotions, strength, maybe on support income ? (sacrifice a cow ressource to feed the battle wolfs?) /(sacrifice one/more cereal ressources to feed the horses), maybe wolf can be mounted through a similar but different mutually exclusive tech path than wolves....Etc
     
  6. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    I'll add things again :
    for wolves vs horses :
    -at animal husbandry, one discover horses or can capture wolves.
    -at mounted warfare, one may branch into horsemanship or battle wolves. horsemanship allows to have mounted warriors : horsemen, same str as warrior, more withdrawal, and more movement (3).
    battle wolves allows for wolf warriors : mounted infantry, like rangers with a wolf. guys running along a big wolf and helping themselves to be dragged by the wolf : like warriors : +1 str, +1mvt, +withdrawal.

    then next tier (or latter in the tech tree). at mounted warfare, horsemen go into knights or horsearchers or lancers... maybe with heavy armor... while battle wolves evolves into warg mounted infantery then into warg riders (as the wolves get bigger through years of breeding) maybe something to show the increased stamina (blitz?) and intelligence of warg vs horses + animal can bite but cannot bear the weight of heavy riders or lancers nor heavy armor, nor maybe the stability to have horse archers... here, horses became a bit better.

    latter, with muskets / tesla rifles, wolves take again the advantage : no use of armor for these fights.

    ...etc

    I might have other ideas;.. alternate history is a fantastic source of inspiration :D
     
  7. incendiary

    incendiary Chieftain

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    Air Mana and Horses should give a small bonus to trade route yield.
     
  8. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    I know that FFH2 lore might take a back seat to an orginal setting, but I think it would be very interesting to see a steam punk Sheaim.
     
  9. doublebakunin

    doublebakunin Chieftain

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    The way mana resources work in FFH, where you choose what you want it to be when you first upgrade it, is really interesting - it'd be cool if you extended that to other sorts of resource. For example, you could add a 'tribe' resource with upgrade options like 'enslave' (which produces slaves, which provides production and unhappiness/instability - not sure how the slavery mechanic you're incorporating works, this is just an example) 'integrate' (produces food and culture for the city) or 'federate' (the city can produce special tribal units, although this one should only apply to the nearest city). This is just an example, obviously, and I don't know how much of a pain it would be to implement.

    Another feature that would be good to incorporate would be Influence-Driven War - it reduces the emphasis on cities in combat, and makes raiding a more viable option, but more importantly it feels more like you are conquering enemy lands when you, uh, conquer enemy lands.

    One of the best parts of Orbis (and FFH) is the way features of the map other than cities also matter - it makes the world feel a lot more real. Perhaps the 'lair' mechanic could be expanded, so there could be features (secluded temples, elite military academies, or neutral settlements, say) at which units could cast spells to produce effects - produce a unit, receive a promotion, or whatever. These spells might take a long time to cast, and/or only be castable once every few dozen turns, to prevent them becoming overpowered.

    It'd make the setting more interesting to avoid pigeonholing fantasy races into single civilisation archetypes - a civilisation with a species-based class system (other than the vampires) would be thematically interesting because of the tensions that might be found within it...

    Keep up the good work!
     
  10. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    Thanks for all the input guys1 A lot of interesting ideas to be used :)

    Of course, not everything fits my ideas, but it is always this way with any mod. So keep them coming.

    And now a quick update to letyou know that I am working on the mod.

    1)Tech tree is ready - 123 researchable techs from ancient times to 1900 AD, with quite a few magic and steampunk techs. It will probably be adjusted a bit as I add stuff. I need also set the proper tech costs
    2) 7 new religions are in. No pure evil or pure good ones. Most are grey or slightly good (well, on the surface at least)
    3) 15 civilizations added. I have general concepts for all of them and will expand the lore and mechanics as the mod matures. For now, you can check Eternal Imperium and Verrata pedia entries below. As you can see, Verrata incorporated some of the ideas posted in this thread. It used to be named Serenissima - thanks a lot for the venetian carnival idea, Shahrazad!
    Imperium:
    Spoiler :
    870 Ab urbe condita
    It may appear strange that I still use the old calendar. After all, everything has changed since the gift was brought from the east. East… The land of great wisdom, but they say that there are as many daemons living if those lands as there is grains of sand of the Great Desert. And we will never know what was the real source of the gift.
    They say that The Gift, as they write it, is the greatest blessing. Immortality, they say, eternal youth, they add. All that is all true. But they say nothing about the price. The gifted seem quite normal, except that they are barren. But they still can participate in unending orgies of food and fornication. Their “animal” senses might be a bit dulled, but they still have pleasure from it. If you can call pleasure something that you do almost every day for several hundreds of years. It changes the gifted. Also, after a century or two, they no longer see other citizens as equals – not even the living senators. Other people come and go, it is hard to get attached. So they do not. It is hard to become gifted, and this makes the chosen ones even more proud of themselves. The easiest way is to be well born and wealthy. Other common way is through the army – but it requires surviving several wars and becoming great warrior to be admitted. The third way… well, for me, it makes the most sense.
    But regardless of it, the gift makes our empire stagnant. Even if the research is done, there are still the same people ruling our nation. There is no change in government nor in the social structure, the laws are still the same. And some discoveries are hard to explain to someone that is over two hundred years old. One hundred sixty one years – that is the time that passed since the republic is no more. They may call it republic, and we still have a senate. But we have the same princeps since the eventful Martius almost two centuries ago. We are an empire, and in truth we have a real, immortal emperor.
    Immortal… Yes, that is a nice word – and my reality from tomorrow on. After four decades of scholarly life, I have been granted the “privilege”. Do I think the gift has a bad influence on our nation? I do. Do I plan to reject it? I do not think that many people would be able to do that. Moreover, there is still so much work to be done, and it is always better if there are more educated and wise people among the gifted. We can’t let the military faction rule The Empire unchallenged.
    The last written words of Publius Cornelius Tactus before immortification

    Verrata:
    Spoiler :
    Verrata is a misleading name – and as such, a very proper one. Truth? Everything is a theatre here. Masks, real and metaphorical, are used all the time, and you might think it is an Oikumene drama, not a real life. Our merchants play with their fleets. Their money dance, which brings even more money. Our armies dance with their swords, and the fencing is a real show. But with condottieri as generals, the clash of armies is usually almost bloodless and the battles are meaningless. They are pre-decided with money of different merchant cartles anyway, so why should anyone die in these petty wars? Too bad sometimes our armies try the same tactics on external enemies. But there is nothing that some gold can’t fix. Even religious zealots can be persuaded to seek someone that pays less and has less armed men – and despite the condottieri, we have some real soldiers. Or so we (and they) think.
    If the above wouldn’t be complicated enough, the great politics is just a small portion of the drama played every day in this city. It is vast and houses unnumbered guilds, troupes, gangs, associations and cults. The twisted streets and small canals make it a maze. And below, carved in the rocks of the hundred islands of Verrata, exists another city. It is a place of shadows, that stage their own plays.
    Urbi de Orbis - Verrata

    The entries need work, I know. In fact, later I might need help from someone more proficient in english to improve the pedia entries.
    I think you can get the general feeling regarding the setting and lore of Orbis world. Plus, the the lack of pure evil/good. Even undead (for a big part) Rifmud has a good justification of their actions. It is the nation of Anubis and Horus, seeking vengance on Set. For them, it is a just fight - even if it involves undead Pharaohs and armies of skeletons and mummies. And sometimes a xenocide...
    4) Spell system will work differently. Spells will be enabled by techs rather than by mana. In fact, you can cast spells with no specific mana at all. But mana is still in - and will improve spells and summons.
    5) Mana resource can no longer be improved (so it is the other way from doublebakunin's suggestions - but I might use these elsewhere). It starts improved, but not usable - needs to be explored, just as unique features in Orbis 1. There is a fixed number of such places, you can't under the normal circumstances make more
    6) spell spheres and mana types reduced. I am sure earth, air, water, fire, life, death and metamagic will be in. I also think blood magic, but not sure yet.
    7) the schools will be more diverse, but I have not yet started adding spells.

    I hope you like at leat some of the features ;)
     
  11. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    I knew that my ideas had few chances to be of use (as I come late and the tech tree is fixed) but My main point was to suggest the idea of exclusive techs that may lead to a latter common tech.
     
  12. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    When you get going I recommend using SVN, it will make the vast amount of changes in the beginning easy for people to see.
     
  13. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    Ahwaric, could you write anything about religions?
     
  14. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    Late is not an issue. I will keep an opern mind for as long as the mod will be developed and expanded.
    The exclusive techs is something I proposed for tech/magic dualism and many people aid they would want to be able to get both. And I agree. I do not want to force people to choose just one path. But I want to make it costly. SO you will be able to either get two low level techs or one low level and one high level.
    The problem is that the techs need to have incremental costs to keep up with increased science production. So disabling a tech after another is researched is an easier way of doing it (I can think of a few ways of doing it...)
    So my question is - what do you guys think?
    And regarding the immortal heroes - I want them to start weak and then to increase in power. Might need some special mechanics - or I will just use promotions or unit upgrades (promotions are easier to do)
    I might consider that - but on the other hand, it will be mostly usable to modders, as it will show the changes in xml, python and source files - and not the acutall in-game effect. Is that what you wanted?
    Sure, I was planning to do it anyway - to get some feedback.
    So in general, religions work as they used in Civ 4/FfH2 (with slight differences in commerces brought to the city). Every one will provide a temple and a special building. Also, some other buildings will improve the effects of the state religion - or a specific religion. An example is cathedral - it reqires order of arches (the guild will stay) and provides extra happines from the state religion. Also some wonders will get better results if related religion is presnt/state. I might even restrict some common wonders to one or several religions.
    Also, every religion will have a disciple and a priest. Not sure about high priests (might come later), but disciples apart form spreadin religions will have some extra abilities. Every religion wll have two special nits, one more combat oriented, and second one being spexcial-ops. But that is just an idea for now. Imight also add special "prophet" unit if needed
    So, the religions are:
    Oak Brotherhood (name might change) - polytheistic religion, worshiping nature and elemental deities. Some parallels with FoL and celtic/germanic/slavic religions of the real world
    Special building: sacred grove
    disciple: skald priest: volhva special units: valkyrie, rusalka (note: druids keep their fantasy archetype, will be associated with this religion but not require it)
    Mytheia: mediterranean (including rome, greece, egypt, phoenicia etc) polytheism
    special building: Temenos (holy precinkt, maybe a labyrynth?)
    disciple: ? priest: augur special units: minotaur, satyr (I might replace one with "sacred band". Satyr is nature oriented, so I might move it to OB to replace rusalka)
    Hermeticism: mystery religion, focusing on will power and otherworldly forces, but not worshiping gods
    special building: well of secrets (library/mage guild type, no special effect pllaned)
    disciple: initiate priest: mahi Special unit: ? (magic beasts and spirits)
    Song of steel: worship of craft and spirits of the metal. No gods involved
    special buildnig: clockwok tower? "steamworks"? special Forge? (not decided yet)
    disciple:enginseer priest: runesmith Specal units: iron men (combat automaton), servitor (improved worker)
    Dhamo: religion of equilibrium of elements and the proper way of things (east asian)
    special building: cloud castle? (might use some ideas...)
    disciple: monk Priest :dhamshi (elementalist?) special unit: warrior monk (maybe elementals?)
    Lux perpetua: monotheistic western religion
    special building: basilica
    disciple: acolyte priest: priest (bishop?) specal units: paladin, angel
    Cult of Chaos: religion of the rejected and oppressed, but also of dark wizards and demon-worshippers (including the old gods - it is not AV, though will have its elements. Probably more in common with OO...)
    special building: pit of change (mutation chance? enhance unit abilities?)
    disciple: cultist priest:zealot special units: chosen of chaos (melee unit), lunatic (?)

    As you can see, it still can use some work. Please let me know what you think, and post any ideas you have.
    A note: I plany to add angelic/demon civ at some point. In general idea, they will enter the game simillar way that mercurian/infernals did in FfH?orbis1, but I want to make some changes - and incorporate it into religions

    And one more note: the alignments will be gone (90% sure...)
     
  15. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    Those religions are really fun!

    I understand that you want to have manageable number of religions, but I will stil want to suggest it...
    I really long for some kind of lawful evil religion or lawful religion with a little evil taste.
    It could be either associated with gods of tyrrany or something like that, or even better not with gods but with power of manhood - then it coud even have a little Nazi-like taste (power of blood, perfecting mind and body, one nation with one furer...)
     
  16. doublebakunin

    doublebakunin Chieftain

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    Cool religions! The Song of Steel specials seem a bit too solely-technological though - it seems like, if they're just mechanical, everyone would use them. If they were more explicitly 'magical', but along the same lines - if the iron men weren't clockwork or whatever but were formed from molten metal, for example (I'm thinking something like the Silver Surfer here) - it would be a little more unique and make the units' uniqueness make more sense. They wouldn't have to be blessed by any god - it could be the craftsmen's supremely-honed focus and perfectionism generates the spiritual energy that the Song of Steel 'priests' use to create the things, or something.

    I really like that none of the religions are explicitly 'evil' or 'good'. You should play up the moral ambiguity a bit - it might eg. let Lux Perpetua players go a bit Lawful Evil like Jarrema suggests. Giving some religions multiple mutually-incompatible 'reformation' techs could potentially be a neat way to create that kind of choice.

    (Also, it'd be pretty cool if the Cult of Chaos was the religion of the rejected and oppressed gods too - a rag-tag legion of small, ambitious spirits keen on rebellion. And/or if, unlike all the other religions, the Cult was strongly egalitarian, communist- or anarchist-style, with the problems that brings. Just a thought.)
     
  17. Azaziel

    Azaziel Chieftain

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    I'd like the idea of the Council of Esus surviving in some way. Changed not even called that anymore but still producing high quality recon units and maybe new units like saboteurs who are good at destroying mech units.... but I rant. :D
     
  18. mistersquare

    mistersquare Chieftain

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    I may not be on these forums much, but I enjoy playing the FfH modmods.

    I am also a student of theology, and as such may be able to help with the religions idea. Please let me know if my contribution is appreciated, or not.

    Oak Brotherhood - this is strong, and I like the loyalty to Celtic, Slavic, and Germanic religions and the reference to Farland. Do not add satyrs, but feel free to add some sort of wood wose (from Gawain and the Green Knight, wild forest dwellers, source of Tolkien's Woses) and maybe some sort of holy tree, and it's decendants, ie. Yggdrasil, white tree, gildergreen, etc. perhaps as a building or even temple.

    Mytheia - This is a good idea. However, Satyrs, Fauns, Minotaurs, Centaurs, Mermaids etc are sort of natural creatures, the kind of half breeds of human and animal that could go well with a bestial civ. To get the mythic feel you could add naiads (water demigods), dryads (nature demigods), titans, cyclopes, fates, gorgons (true source is of fantastic ugliness, not snake hair), and perhaps have hero demigods who are sired by a particular elemental god or goddess of the pantheon.

    Hermeticism - this is a great idea, as this is an element of many religions. As a religion of its own, however, there must be some theological element to the asceticism. Perhaps a Platonist denial of the material, changeable, false world and instead a zeal for truth, spirit, simplicity, and ascension. Your initiate idea is good here, initiates could begin, and as the unit upgrades increasing numbers of initiates are required to care for what could eventually become a blind, maybe even senseless, motionless priest who masters the magic of willpower and uses that control to communicate their needs. This could be a great synergy to a magic or a tech civ.

    Song of Steel - This is a cool steampunk religion. Lore-wise it could be the element that prevents historical technological development and instead channels it into steampunk. There could be a dark side in that the priests use magical and technological knowledge to deceive the people into believing in (false) spirits or gods of metal. To that end your idea of industriously useful units is strong, to the point where this could be a civ which does not spread by missionaries but through civics, techs, and great prophets, and by building buildings. Perhaps they could have a bonus to production of specialists, both engineers and priests.

    Dhamo - this religion is interesting. I would go with the elements idea completely, taking it from Oak Brotherhood. I would perhaps give the warrior priest to the Hermeticism mod (what is cooler than powerful martial artists with supernatural senses?) Since there are vast possibilities in the types and powers of elementals, you could perhaps make it such that a human mage becomes such. Thus you could begin with say an air mage (all tiers in air) and then with the religion upgrade to elemental. This elemental can then spread religion, cast spells, and fight. Perhaps even having all elementals of different spheres present in city over time can allow for building of many specific buildings (flight port, eternal spring, plasma forge, earth mine) etc. This would be a great synergy for a magical civilization.

    Lux Perpetua - Instead of ripping off Christianity, perhaps you could make it a dark version. Intolerance, Crusaders, etc. Perhaps a priest (initally very weak and useless) can upgrade to a Crusader, Inquisitor, or Bishop. Crusader could in turn be come a Templar, then a Paladin and, upon martyrdom, become a Seraph. An Inquisitor could become something even more unpleasant, like a magic unit that upon death becomes a Fallen Angel, with some sort of penalty associated with it. A Bishop could upgrade to Archbishop, Cardinal, and then Pope, and upon Death become an Archangel. There could also be an angel upgrade tree, with any normal units upon death becoming an Angel. The upgrade tree could look Angel (weaker, with holy promotions) - Cherubim (just as weak, with healing promotions too) - Seraphim (stronger, with combat power on top and weapons) - Archangel (Death of Pope or Paladin, which are national units). This could be a great synergy with a militaristic civ, with the martyrdom culture and power of reborn angel units negating some of the frustrating costs of unit loss in warfare, and perhaps a crusade / jihad civic. The lore could be that the entire nation wishes to create heaven on earth, and thus will conquer and convert the world heedless of cost, as martyrdom produces Angels. Of course, any angel unit is just as strong as the unit that dies, but with more promotions and greater power against demons. All tech and upgrade costs still apply, however, and may make this religion too costly for zerg rush civs.

    Cult of Chaos - this is challenging, since you have combined the religion of the oppressed with many evil elements. I think that oppression gives a population wisdom, such that they might be a force for good instead of evil. Thus I would keep the Cult of Chaos, but as the darkest religion. I do not know what the intended undead related civs are, so I would say that this religion converts any undead death into a fallen angel - demon - eidolon - archdemon, or hellhound for beast units. Thus upon the death of vampires, wights, wraiths, liches, zombies, necromancers, werewolves? etc. you recoup the effort of these costly units somewhat. Since it is evil it may be a little cheaper than Lux Aeterna, but may create a diplomatic penalty.

    If you wish to add the mutation chance, you could include all human-animal hybrids as units too, such as satyrs, centaurs, minotaurs, merfolk, fauns, pigmen, etc. Perhaps they would be dependent on the livestock and aquarian resources you control, and the more you do the cheaper they are.

    Finally, the religion of the oppressed. I would call it:

    Hope of the Suffering: this religion believes that by unresisting service to any ruler, they will achieve true victory. The believers are pacifistic. Their units are simple missionaries, such as preachers, teachers, evangelists, apostles. Each upgrade increases the chance the unit spreads religion. Evangelists and apostles are not consumed in spreading religion, preachers are, and teachers build mission schools, the special building. Perhaps catechists and speakers could be added to build more buildings. This religion negates any unhappiness from civics. It's special civic could be pacifism, but it also will work well with slavery, caste system, etc. Their unique buildings add a strong cultural bonus to the nation. Thus a dark civ can sacrifice a powerful religion for a religion that is cheaper and lacks negatives.

    Hope you like, gtg
     
  19. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    Interesting ideas :)

    But I would like to haver religion of oppressors - cult of power, strenght, blood, order, purity, etc.
    Sounds a little like a Nazi misticism? It should, as I believe it would be an ideal evil religion
     
  20. qev

    qev Chieftain

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    I don't suppose conflict-through-terraforming-magic would really fit with the 'reduced magic' theme of Orbis 2, would it? :lol:
     

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