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Orbis 2 The New Beggining (for civ IV) brainstorming

Discussion in 'Orbis Modmod' started by Ahwaric, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

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    @Ahwaric:

    Sorry I'm a bit late to this, but in answer to your original post in this thread, I think you should create something you enjoy, i.e., the mod you want. I'm sure people will try it and give you feedback.

    I like the idea of bringing Slavic elements into the Doviello (the whole Varangian thing).

    As for Warhammer, I don't know how far along the Civ 4 mod got. If you have Civ 3, there's a completed Warhammer mod for that, which you can look at to see what they did. Civ 3's editor is more limiting than what you can do in Civ 4, but they came up with a nice variety for the different civs, I think.
     
  2. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    Yeah, if you want some victorian era stuff, steam era must last for some time...
    Do you plan to include electricity in a game? (and maybe stuff like Frankenstein's monster? ouch!)

    What do you think about Japanese culture? I know that 'Far-East' niche is already taken by Dao, but Japanese-based civ would be really different from it.
    And, maybe, civ based on north-american civs? (Sioux etc.) There is a lot of interesting mythology.
    If actively looking for more civs, it also comes to my mind that unique one could be based on head-hunting tribes from Mezoamerica and Papua, or on shamanistic tribes from Siberia
    African civ could have elements of "skin-wearers", of trance and becoming animals during it. It can also incorporate stuff from Solomon Kane stories and something like that. There is also very interesting RPG setting 'Nyambe. African Adventure' that has a lot of ideas.
     
  3. Shahrazad

    Shahrazad Chieftain

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    I can well understand you about the little time available from real life and about the effort to do something that no longer interested in doing it... but I am worried: who can assure us that it can not happen the same with Orbis 2, left the job half done because you have no more desire to work on it? :lol:

    believe me... it is always very frustrating to follow a very good job (or project of job) with hope and then to see abandoned it without further assistance to resolve unresolved bugs (I think for example to all the abandoned projects for a warhammer fantasy mod on Civ VI by other modders) :sad:

    From me: I would love to be able to improve/fix by myself the AI or the other aspects of Orbis 1, but unfortunately I am not a modder... I can to change some art in the mod that I dislike, I can to change some aspect or trait of the AI of a leader, I can to add a new civilization or reskin an unit, but I have no idea how to touch and improve a core code (to repair a python exception or something like that).

    __________



    • - Vampires (Transylvania)... yes, of course ;) would be great a civilization of vampires highly realistic, with a strong characterization of a feudal Romanian civilization

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      - elves... the better elves are the "warhammer" elven style... would be great to have in Orbis 2 a civ of "high elves" (elven paladins with a "Elohim" style? pacifists and isolationists?), a civ of "wood elves" (Ljósálfar), and a civ of "dark elves" (assassins and pirates with black armours such as "Druchii" of warhammer)

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      - Persian ("Sidar") ... I love it :goodjob:

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      The Persian "Immortals" :lol:


      - mesoamerican ("Tlacatl") ... I do not really like the graphical "lizard" quality of the Tlacatl ... and if they were more ... humans? A mesoamerican human civilization? :mischief:

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      - medieval italian (merchant republic) ... marvelous idea!!! :eek:

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      (I'm Italian... from Genoa :lol:)


      - "I also consider egyptian civ (undead)" ... yes, yes, yessss!! I want it!! :mad:... :D

      - norse-slavic ("Doviello") good idea :goodjob:

      ... About the norse-slavic civilization, did you think about a second Slavic-Rus-Illian style civilization?

      I imagine the "Doviello" primarily as a Slavic civilization close to nature and wolves...

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      And I imagine the "Illians" primarily as a Slavic-Russian-Novgorodian civilization, followers of the gods of Winter and "winter-terraformer"... a civilization of "Tzars", "Boyars", "Cossacks" and "winter mages" as the Kislev civilization of Warhammer or the "Bogarov" from Dominions 3... Is it a good idea? There are many interesting real "winter-russian" myths and creatures :crazyeye:

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      ...

      Other ideas...

      The Balseraphs... no Balseraphs? I think it with with a new surreal carnival "venetian style"...

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      ... And the Lanun... a civilization of pirates is always essential ;) (hoping for a good naval AI in Orbis 2 ;) )

      Are only suggestions of my imagination, but what do you think? :crazyeye:
     
  4. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    You could have a "barbary pirates" civ. Less like the goody Lanun ;)

    Would the Tlacatl be lizardmen again? If so, you could perhaps have some kind of jungle-y (amazonia/west africa) civ of humans.

    African gnolls would be nice of course :D

    However I must say I'd personally try coming up with a background before designing civ so that they can have a sort of unity/continuity rather than being the patchwork fantasy-themed civilizations always are.
     
  5. Shahrazad

    Shahrazad Chieftain

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    An other interesting civilization could be a people of "horse lords", a new replaced version of the old "Happy Hippus" (possibly with a different name? :lol:), but I'm not thinking of mercenaries or the Rohirrim...

    I'm thinking of a people much closer to the Mongols or to the "Dothraki" from A Song of Ice and Fire

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    The nomadic Horde
     
  6. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    I would like horse empire which hates magic in all guises. Barbarians, and all that stuff.
    But... if the only alternative to magic is technology... I am not sure, would there be a place for a civ weak on both those things?
     
  7. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    Thanks! That is what I hope for.
    That is what teslapunk stands for - and electricity is already in. I imagine gauss rifles would be the ultimate infantry weapons in Orbis 2 ;)
    Frankenstein's monster is olready in Orbis 1 (Boris...). So no reason to get rid of him
    Far eastern is a wide category, so I do not think anything is taken. The only problem is developing civilization rich enough to make it worth playing.
    So, I do not say no to any of the inspirations. But I want to start with less civs, nad develop them better. Then I can sart other civs. Also, new civ is a good material for a modmod ;)
    No one. That is a risk you take by using free stuff ;)
    And I do not consider Orbis half-done. As I said, I think it is reaching its currents limits. BUt rather than expanding it to the limits and beyond, I want to start more clean and change some basics - to get more space.
    Regarding AI changes - I would love to. But thruth is, AI is possibly the hardest thing to do, and the most boring. And while I still try, not sure I will succeed. Not much for an encouragment, right? I want to do something that is more creative. Teaching AI how to play is not, especially not knowing if it will work...
    So, all people who try have my deepest thanks and awe. Plus, a chance to have their effects "borrowed" if possible.
    I have not been a modder before I started Orbis. You just need to try to do more and be persistent.
    I am a biologist, and I have been a total ignorant regarding the code. In fact, most of the time I still feel quite ignorant. I just take a piece of code and paste it and do some changes. And it sometimes works.
    But all I know I learned modding FfH. I started with XML, then tried python, and finally tried with dll. Small steps and look where am I. So do not say you are not a modder - I could say the same ;)
    In fact, I was thinking more of transylvania than romania. So the vampires would have more german flavour (ssaxon coonists) - but a bit of romanian, too.
    Plus, not evil. The vampires like a nobility in medieval society - protecting the serfs, while at the same feeling they are much better and deserve a high "tax". Also, like Vlad the Impaler - good for his country, but a monster versus his enemies (including rebels)...
    Too bad I was thinking more of the Venice :p That is a nation I often play in Europa Universalis.
    I even had already named the civ "Serenissima"
    Varangian and Rus thing is what I was thinking. Plus the Goths. Also, there are close ties of some Polish lands with Scandinavia. So it is quite extensive.
    First, I wanted to make two civs - one norse, the other north slavic (Poland, Russia).
    I may come back to this idea at some point and split the civ. That is, when I have anough stuff for two civs. But I think it might be good to start with one. In fact, the same happened with Palatinate - it is a mixture of Holy Roman Empire germany and west (and east?) slavic nations.
    Regarding Novgorod, it is probably the most norse-influenced slavic land, so I do not think it would be good for Illians.
    But now that I think of Illians as Kislev russians, it has certain charm...
    It is worth thinking of.
    My problem exactly - what to do with balseraph flavour. They do not have real in-game mechanics I think, but the flavour is great, so might be worth implementing. But venetia is already taken ;)
    I try to start with the background first, too. The patchwork is more in the in-game properties. I think of their flavour and try to give them the right toys from Orbis1/FfH - or create new ones.
    Regarding Lanun, not sure. Pirates have a lot of charm, but I think with merchant republic and norse drakkars, they need a little extra mechanics than just the sea domination.
    I want the seas dangerous, so the barbarian pirates should be in.
    Reagrdng gnolls - of course I thought of Ngomelle :D
    But lack of unit art is a big drawback, so they will probably have to wait.
    I forgot to list them. Sugdos is their name.
    The civ is planned, with scythian/amazon flavour. Mongolian too, but a bit less. Proud horse warriors, with permanent settlements and agriculture, but able to leave it all and "disapear" - just as scythians did when persians attacked them... And as wind on the steppe.
     
  8. Shahrazad

    Shahrazad Chieftain

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    This is a good idea... a feudal society where the vampire Nobility offer protection to the lower classes in exchange for their human ... blood. Vampires are no "good" or "evil"... they simply take care of their human people as a shepherd with his sheeps, including the possibility of eating them! :lol:

    This interesting and complex reality could include the possibility of several leaders, some of which are more benevolent, others more cruel and tyrannical...

    I can understand because Venice has an irresistible charm :)

    Yes, please! A "Rus-Kislev-Cossack-Illian winter focused" civilization is very cool! :bowdown:

    A new slavic civilization could even capture the legend or the name of the legendary Kitezh, The Sleeping City

    "It is said that when the Illians awake, the world sleeps; and when the world sleeps, the Illians awake"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitezh

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    They are a good idea with interesting game mechanics :thumbsup:

    About the Balseraphs... I do not know ... Venice for its unique elegant and surreal "carnival" lore remains for me the most natural association that could be done with Balseraphs... Is it possible to merge together these two things? The Balseraphs merged with the Serenissima concept? A civilization of insane artists and greedy-enigmatic merchants? (I should mention that the Balseraphs are devoted to Mammon, the God of Greed)... The balseraphs as mysterious and greedy merchants of rare and exotic things (slaves, virgins, strange animals from exotic lands for their freak shows, spices, steam weapons...) are not completely out of place... for a most dark and surreal Venice :)

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    p.s.
    ... other brainstorming... the Grigori as a "Faustian" civilization focused on the pursuit of Knowledge, philosophy, culture and the human spirit (grigori lands are the homeland of great people similar to Giordano Bruno, Erasmus of Rotterdam, Sir Francis Bacon...) that overcomes even the Gods? I've always associated them with a Germanic or Dutch culture of the Protestant Reformation age... But the Reformation in this case has brought this civilization to the total rejection of the Gods and religions. The Grigori believe in the existence of the capricious Gods, but the Grigori reject them... and sometimes Grigori challenge them

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  9. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    Don't try to reenact FFH. Balseraphs and Grigori aren't that crucial, you could do without them. Especially the Balseraphs who were kind of the kitchen sink of the civs: no real mechanic besides a theme that could allow anything... Like cowtapults :p
     
  10. Shahrazad

    Shahrazad Chieftain

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    There is no a real plot to recreate (for example if you are doing a mod on The Lord of the Rings you can realize it without the people of Dunland, but you can not do it without the Haradrim), so in theory no civilization is crucial. The only two reasons to enter (or reenter) a civilization in a new storyline are the charisma of the dominant theme of this faction ("vampires", "magicians", "necromancers", "dimensional travelers"...) or something that makes it very different to play using this faction (interesting gameplay mechanic or a particular focus on one aspect of the game as culture, great people, sea domination, magic, diplomacy, guilds, religion, )

    FFH not has a particular storyline, but merely to suggest some of the classical fantasy archetypes imaginary (vampires, werevolfes, pirates, a desert civilization, dark elves...), and other modmods simply add other classic fantasy archetypes imaginary (lizardmen, steampunk civilizations, fairies...)... there is nothing truly original to be copied or reiser ... at the end these are always the same imaginary fantasy archetypes.

    Now... I think Balseraphs and Grigori have an interesting gameplay (one has a focus on culture and commerce, the other focuses on the importance of having great people and no religious influence) and a charming lore (specially a venetian-balseraph maritime-merchant Republic)... of course this is just my opinion.

    and I'm not necessarily proposing to insert the same balseraphs civilizations, but use the same theme of "bizarre", "crazy" and "carnival masquerade" to give an exotic and darker connotation to the original concept of the Serenissima. The original Balseraphs are more like circus performers (and they are too crazy!), while I'm imagining a company of mysterious and greedy merchants who trade with distant lands to satisfy the whims and desires of their rich nobles who spend their lives in a perpetual "masquerade" of parties, intrigues and betrayals in their surreal city on the waters...

    I have in mind something similar to the atmospheres of the anime Gankutsuō (Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo) or I have in mind the "nobles" of the anime Wolf's Rain... the idea came to me even remembering the Kubrick's movie Eyes Wide Shut and the secret "masked" society in this film... and playing a board game set in Venice: Inkognito

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    ...but it is only a possible idea :)
     
  11. Hankc

    Hankc Warlord

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    One could perhaps give the Serenissima a Carnevale-flavour on the magic side of the tech tree. Mysterious, disturbing masked individuals with magic powers and all that.
     
  12. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    This... "Serenissima' could have misterious flavor on the tech side as well... Maybe something like merchant civ concentrating efforts on spies, shady diplomats, illegal drug markets, etc.
     
  13. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    First off, glad to see you back Ahwaric ;)

    Secondly, I'd like to strongly reiterate this point. Don't just say "We don't really need THAT civ or THIS civ" either; Create something entirely new. Reusing mechanics is fine (and advisable, with so many it's hard to come up with new ones at this point), but reusing themes should be avoided.

    Why have yet another tundra based, animal affinity civ? Why not instead have a civilization of matriarchal, shamanistic orcs who dwell in small camps that don't disturb the natural order? The further you are from FfH, the better; There will be fewer comparisons between the two, fewer people attempting to turn your lore into FfH 3.
     
  14. arcticnightwolf

    arcticnightwolf Emperor

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    i see what you did there ... :p

    that's just waste of creative power - use them to your cause, task them with making essays about fictional civilizations, history, overall design documents ! :p

    anyway ... it has been already 20 months ? uh, i haven't even noticed ... the time flows so fast ... and, yay for another mod sticking with civ4 rather than converging to civ5 :D ...

    wb Ahwaric :)
     
  15. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    To be fair, that point was made to me by someone else just a few days ago. :p And I feel he was right. It's better to draw mechanics from diverse, unrelated FfH civs, than it is to combine related ones; The former creates something that feels unique, the latter simply feels like the same old thing with a new name. The orcs up there borrow from the Chislev, Doviello, Elves, and a few others... And NOTHING from the Clan of Embers.
     
  16. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    Well, that is not true. You can't ever be sure that you take nothing from a civ. Even if you do not know, usually there are some parallels.
    The orcs are already an archetype. They need to be barbaric. So they are - or they are not orcs.
    The same goes for my new vampire civ. They are vampires, so they have some common points with Calabim. Or Sylvania from warhammer (in fact, much more from the latter). But I still think i came with something new. Or, a new mixture - as everything was already done, just not the same way.
    It is the truth regarding all the culture.

    But as my ideas for new civs go, I do not just want to rename civs and do some minor changes. The idea of the civs is new - at least for most civs, as I am not sure how much will I change in "Scions". But there will be changes even here, both in flavour and mechanics.
    I posted the FfH civs names just to say which mechanics might a civ use. Will byzantine civ be like Kuriotates? No, they will be much more byzantine and greek. Plus I want some unique traits for them. But they will focus on smaller amout of big, well defended cities. In fact, my main inspiration for the civ was the unique ability of Rome in CivV. But here, I can do much more. I have sprawling...

    Back to the orcs - they will not be simillar to Clan of Embers. I do not like Clan. And I want orcs to be orcs. So they will be barbarians - but I am still looking for the right kind of barbarians. The tundra dwelling werewolves niche is occupied. Doviello are not Werewolves in FfH, but in scandinavian mythology they might be - so I made them so. And plan on expand/adjust that.

    Regarding Serenissima, the carnival of masks might be a nice dark side of the most serene republic. Makes it more interesting than just gold making sailors...
     
  17. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    I realize you fully intend to create something new; My comments were much more aimed at others posting suggestions. I sent you a private message containing other things. :p
     
  18. Shahrazad

    Shahrazad Chieftain

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    I agree with those looking for something radically new and different ... but of course I believe there are limits ... I try to explain better... I'm a fan of mythology and folklore and I noticed that the man is rarely able to create something completely new without using something that already exists or combining existing elements.

    for example a mythical animal is almost always a combination of parts and features of other existing animals (a pegasus is a horse with wings, a dragon is a large lizard with wings, a centaur is a cross between a human and a horse...)... when a writer imagines a new people or civilization, always takes elements from cultures that already exists. So often happens that some people in the books have features in common with people from other books or with real people well known to us. In other words, archetypes are "numbered" and beyond a certain point I do not think you can come up with something completely different, except for some small change in the details.

    This is a short list of classic archetypes of the human being which often draws on his own fantasy creations:

    - fictional people with traits taken by a people historically existed (Romans, Slavs, Celts, Vikings, etc.)
    - fictional people living in extreme or peculiar climatic/geographic conditions (in the tundra, in the desert, in a land where it is always winter or summer, in a land where it rains forever, in a volcanic area as Mordor, in the depths of the oceans or in the underground, etc.)
    - fictional people with a life span longer or shorter than normal humans (elves, dwarves, immortals, etc.)
    - fictional people extraordinarily ancient with the role of precursors, wise guardians or creatures completely foreign and incomprehensible (elves, dwarves, precursors, semi-divine ancestors, ancient vampires, aliens, Great Old Ones, etc.)
    - fictional people with a peculiar "focus" (focused on crafting, necromancy, schoolwork, philosophy, sea domination, exploration, crazy habits, human sacrifices, slavery, pillage, peaceful agricultural life, archeology, religion, isolationism, etc.)
    - fictional civilizations of "not-human" people, formed by mythological creatures of a certain type (a civilization of vampires, werewolves, minotaurs, giants, demons, etc.)

    These categories can be extended, but more civilizations are added to a narrative setting and most likely will, sooner or later, to repeat something "already seen".

    It is not a fault of those who imagine these new civilizations, but it's just a limit to which sooner or later comes the imagination, because at the end the archetypes are always the same.

    Not however I agree with the idea to put a limit to a specific category of a civilization.
    I think there is space at least for two civilizations of the tundra or the desert, on condition of making the two civilizations very different. Number two is always a nice number that offers the alternative to choose two different civilizations that share the same archetype in completely different ways. High Elves and Dark Elves have always been a good example of this way. For example, someone might find more interesting to play with a "Russian-Illian" civilization, "winter-bringer" and that lives forever in snow-covered lands... someone else might find it more fun to play with a people of the tundra with more similarities to the Doviello civilization. Same opinion for the Malakim or an undead-desert-Egyptian civilization. Number two is always a nice number if there are two good ideas.

    I apologize for my bad English
     
  19. Terkhen

    Terkhen King

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    I agree that something that is 100% original is nearly impossible, and IMO setting that as a goal would be a mistake. No matter what you try to do in a fantasy setting, someone will have done it before. For me, just creating a new setting that is completely different from FFH2 would be more than enough for variety's sake.
     
  20. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    There is also one other strategy of creating myths and similar stuff. It is also based on existing forms but rather than combining them, it is based on taking them to extreme or reversing existing patterns.
    In opposition to masculine civ, we got Amazons. In opposition to mortal humans, we got immortals. etc., etc.

    It is only my thought, so maybe I am not correct
     

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