Orbis - the original thread

[Tarquelne]

@Nadin Bytefelt
I doubt it will be a big problem. But if it will be, I will limit scions.

Something I considered but never got around to trying (because I've yet to learn any C++) is giving Scions the "Extravagant" trait from the Saints & Sinners mod: Need two luxury resources for the +1 happiness. Not a huge break on growth, but not insignificant either.

 

[arkham4269]

Is it really needed? True, they do not get religions but most agnostic civs get stuff that more than compensate that. I can't really see a balance or flavor reason to add it ATM, can you?

Actually I finally got to a game where I see you can now build a Cathedral so I figure that will work.

One odd question though brought on by the Scions being very Roman. Since the Romans were 'bad' sailors relative to the Carthaginians, they used their corvus to let their soldiers do the what their rams couldn't. So what I was thinking, going back to my perennial request for a 'prize ship' goes something like this:

A) Either make a 'boarding' promotion for a limited number of units (like axemen or swordsmen) that would allow them to attack from a ship to a ship. Doing this would necessitate some changes to make the Luann borders more efficient. I would also think this boarding promotion would also in affect make the unit very light defensively since corsairs tend to rely on shock to win rather than an armor for defense.

B) Have a 'corvus' promotion for the ship to show they have them. This would limit the speed of the ship by one and perhaps even have a very small percentage change of sinking the ship each turn out of port.

Again, I think that when a ship is captured by a pirate, boarded by the above or a pirate is captured, a prize ship should be created. These would act as 'super-slaves' in the sense of being able to be brought back to a port and broken up for bonus.

Another naval idea is shouldn't there be a way to capture sea monsters? Many players have proposed that there should be a spell along the Water Mana line that allows a spell that grants temporary water walking so besides being able to launch a surprise water attack, hunters/rangers could also get at water monsters. I was thinking it would be nice if you could snag a water monster and then use them to create some sort of coastal food resource. Obviously the Luann would want to use captured Sea Turtles to help create War Tortoise later on like Elephants are used to create War Elephants.

I have suggested River Ports before, but since you have Levees, I guess they might not be needed. However, I was thinking that River Ports might be nice for cities off the ocean (since you can't have a river port and a harbor in the same city) that are on a river to be able to have a building that generates all that merchant goodness that a harbor does.

The levee, on the other hand, brings up an idea for an event. Rivers flood and I'm thinking that if a city on a river floods then you'd get something like this:
A) Flood waters race through your city unopposed! (Lose 1-2 buildings)
B) Flood waters diverted by Levees save your city! (Need Levee)
C) City spared flood waters by wizards! (Need water mana, maybe and/or air mana)

 

[Jean Elcard]

One thing that would definitely improve performances in ffh and orbis is the new way hell terrain spread is calculated in FF 0.50.

would it be a pain to add civ4lerts and/or the "avoid unhappy/unhealthy population" from FF? it really is the only thing that's keeping me from loving this mod

If you decide to fulfill Gekko's requests at some point, feel free to ask, if you don't know how to implement it.

 

[KingArthur666]

I'm enjoying patch d, but I had one request. I'm playing scions, and now that the haunted lands have spread around quite a bit my fort commanders keep getting scared and then damaged by losing their addiction. It doesn't really affect my play but it is annoying having the pop ups hit all the time.
Anyway you could make the fort commanders undead so they are not affected by the haunted lands?
Oh, one other thing. When a living unit tries to cast a spell (generally grant gift) they often miscast which is fine, but the history item often contains several lines of gibberish.

 

[arkham4269]

I'm enjoying patch d, but I had one request. I'm playing scions...

While I normally hate having the option to buy 'obsolete' units cluttering up the screen, I think the Scions should be allowed to buy their 'warriors' all the way through the game. Late in my current game, Basium kicked-off his Worldspell and more than half of my units died. Sure at that point in the game I could build many units to replace them in 1-2 turns, but it would be nice to have the option of building a pool of warriors after Basium is created with the intent to pay to upgrade them after the Worldspell hits. I'd rather build them later than build them early in the game and keep them around as that costs money!

 

[Ahwaric]

Something I considered but never got around to trying (because I've yet to learn any C++) is giving Scions the "Extravagant" trait from the Saints & Sinners mod: Need two luxury resources for the +1 happiness. Not a huge break on growth, but not insignificant either.

Great Idea! I will check the mod (I am getting better at stealing parts of C++ code, but still can't really write my own). If not, maybe we can get Xienwolf to help

Actually I finally got to a game where I see you can now build a Cathedral so I figure that will work.

In fact, every civ can build 3 religious buildings: unique "pagan" temple, monstery (or equivalent) and cathedral, but it requires Order of Arches.
By the way, what do you guys think of giving a free guildmaster to every civ that researches appropiate technology if the headquaters was already built?

One odd question though brought on by the Scions being very Roman. Since the Romans were 'bad' sailors relative to the Carthaginians, they used their corvus to let their soldiers do the what their rams couldn't. So what I was thinking, going back to my perennial request for a 'prize ship' goes something like this...

I agree that some unique ships can be nice for scions. They do not look like a good sailors too me, plus sea has nothing to offer to them except trade. And Arnie has created some nice siege galleys.
But on the other hand, I was thinking of a good use for a dromon. And greek fire

As the prize ship goes, I think current piracy mechanics (you get money for every unit destroyed by a pirate) is good, but it could be expanded to boarding promotion... What you propose is basically just another slave generating mechanics. I prefer to think they capture ships cargo and sell it.
I agree that water monsters should be put to a good use. I will think about it. Currently you need to mesmerize them. Subduea animal on ships or water walk on rangers? The second option is quite powerfull...
Water walking can't be temporary - unit without water walking/flying dies on water tile. And we do not want such suprizes, do we?

I like the idea of the river port now that I think of it. Rivers are giving plenty of goods already, but that is reasonable that they do. I am just not sure if it is good for balance...
The event idea is nice, but I do not like the events along the lines "have this or suffer".

Anyway you could make the fort commanders undead so they are not affected by the haunted lands?
Oh, one other thing. When a living unit tries to cast a spell (generally grant gift) they often miscast which is fine, but the history item often contains several lines of gibberish.

I made fort commanders siege units so they get appropiate promotions and there are no siege countering promotions (city raider is good enough here). But they are alive to let them get disease and such...
I might go three way:

• make them not alive - just as cannon/ship crews are not taken into account
• change unit combat to something else (?)
• make sure they get racial promotions (no idea how would I exactly do it, but I think I might manage it)

I will look into the message bug. By the way, I will make sure haunted lands spread to tiles around the city, not the city itself.

it would be nice to have the option of building a pool of warriors after Basium is created with the intent to pay to upgrade them after the Worldspell hits. I'd rather build them later than build them early in the game and keep them around as that costs money!

I think I have a better idea. Maybe I should limit Basium's spell just the same way I limited destroy undead effect on undead. They are not demons (Basium's main target), nor normal undead. So why should they get harmed so much?

 

[arkham4269]

By the way, what do you guys think of giving a free guildmaster to every civ that researches appropiate technology if the headquaters was already built?

Sounds good to me. Perhaps you could build it instantly with the same sort of Great Person used to found the original corporation as well.

I agree that some unique ships can be nice for scions. They do not look like a good sailors too me, plus sea has nothing to offer to them except trade. And Arnie has created some nice siege galleys.
But on the other hand, I was thinking of a good use for a dromon. And greek fire

One might argue that the Arcane Barge (grrrr hate that name! ) fulfills that role. Of course a dromon w/greek fire might be a nice earlier version. Plus I don't understand how the non-magical Mechanos can still build Arcane Barges.

Plus, I wouldn't sneeze at the trade. In most games I've played as Scions, I usually end up with lots of gold. I guess all roads lead to the Risen Emperor!

As the prize ship goes, I think current piracy mechanics (you get money for every unit destroyed by a pirate) is good, but it could be expanded to boarding promotion... What you propose is basically just another slave generating mechanics. I prefer to think they capture ships cargo and sell it.

All valid points. However, I found one of the best uses for them was in helping out island cities. They usually are very poor in producing tiles so it often time takes them forever to build anything. Being able to bring in a prize ship to boost the speed of building construction was always nice, especially if you don't have a civic that allows for paying gold to speed up construction.

The event idea is nice, but I do not like the events along the lines "have this or suffer".

Well I agree with your reasoning but one could argue that there isn't such thing as a free lunch. Rivers bring in wealth and water for irrigation but it should also come as a price. The same could be said that port cities might get hit with storms that do the same and perhaps need Air mana to keep from getting clobbered.

I think I have a better idea. Maybe I should limit Basium's spell just the same way I limited destroy undead effect on undead. They are not demons (Basium's main target), nor normal undead. So why should they get harmed so much?

Well I must say that in one turn I lost 90% of my necromancers as well as almost all of my units that I've been shepherding from early in the game. Losing all of those elite units really is damaging. I mean it's bad enough that the Calabim Worldspell really hurts the Scions more than any other race to also have them lose most of their troops as well.

 

[arkham4269]

BTW, I must commend you on the whole Fort Commander thing. Especially for the Scions who might want to limit their number of cities, being able to create Forts to claim territory is a really nice thing.

Although that reminds me. Since the Scions don't really have many live units (and even their mercenaries are undead) having the ability to create a Flesh Golem doesn't seem all that great of a level III spell. In my latest game all I could use was my Fort Commanders! So perhaps the Scions should have some sort of create Mega-zombie or something like similar to Boris in being undead.

I for one would like the Mega-zombie since A) it would create a zombie version of Halfmorn and B) while making Frankenstein golems a la Boris makes sense, I think it would be better to keep that a Mechanos UU.

 

[Ahwaric]

Sounds good to me. Perhaps you could build it instantly with the same sort of Great Person used to found the original corporation as well.

I meant an executive that can expand guild (without having to wait till AI does it). For that, I think sacrificing great person is too much.

One might argue that the Arcane Barge (grrrr hate that name! ) fulfills that role. Of course a dromon w/greek fire might be a nice earlier version. Plus I don't understand how the non-magical Mechanos can still build Arcane Barges.

... because I forgot to change it?
By the way, you just found me a use for greek-fire ship Just need to implement it right.
Regarding Arcane Barge, I agree, the name is unfortunate, I am going to change it. Any suggestions?

I mean it's bad enough that the Calabim Worldspell really hurts the Scions more than any other race to also have them lose most of their troops as well.

Actually, river of blood only substract 1 pop in scions cities instead of 2 it normally does. Also, I have changed retribution (max is now 70% for scions instead of 100%)
Regarding flesh golem, they get another spell at every body level to compensate limited usefullnes of the normal spell (in FF they can't get body at all, have special corpus spells). I think +1 movement and blitz with 25% expire chance is good enough
Flesh golems are made by magic, while mechanos use normal means (electricity...). The effects are quite different, as are the means.

 

[KingArthur666]

Blast! My game is stuck at this point. CTD every time I end the turn. I was winning too. I don't know if it will do you any good, but I thought I'd upload it all the same.

 

[arkham4269]

... because I forgot to change it?

Always a good excuse!

By the way, you just found me a use for greek-fire ship Just need to implement it right.

Not to get too naval crazy, but in the old Civ III Rise & Rule (forerunner to Rise of Mankind in Civ IV) the Polynesians had a small outrigger that could carry 1 of anything into anywhere on the sea. Of course they had a small chance of sinking every turn they ended in a sea tile and more of a chance in an ocean tile, but it really was a great unit for a human play to go colonize islands. I was thinking that perhaps the Luann could have a Viking longship at sailing that would be like an early caravel but every turn ending in an ocean tile could cause a good chance of sinking. I know FfH isn't really much of a naval game, but I sometimes don't think the Luann have that much to make them different in the ship department.

Regarding Arcane Barge, I agree, the name is unfortunate, I am going to change it. Any suggestions?

Fire Galleon (pretty much what it is)
Fiery Brig (since Brigantine is a bit of a mouth-cruncher)
Arcane Brig/Bark/Barque

Regarding flesh golem...they are made by magic, while mechanos use normal means (electricity...). The effects are quite different, as are the means.

I understand all that. My problem is that in a normal civ, you have plenty of units to let your Flesh Golem absorb to gain more power and abilities. If all you have are undead, then you have one neutered Flesh Golem since about the only living units the Scions have is Korinna and their Fort Commanders.

 

[Ahwaric]

@KingArthur666
I have checked the save. Dendrom (northern Ljosalfar city) has a large stack of Priests of Leaves. Some of them have attack/missionary AI. When I changed it to AI city defense in world builder, the game progresses fine. Do you know how to change it? If not, I will post a "fixed" save.
No idea what is causing the problem, so I have no idea how to cure it for good.

I was thinking that perhaps the Luann could have a Viking longship at sailing that would be like an early caravel but every turn ending in an ocean tile could cause a good chance of sinking. [...] I know FfH isn't really much of a naval game,

I think a bit later ship could fit Lanun better. How about holk - a cog replacement that can enter ocean squares but has a low (2% ?) chance to sink if there. And I do not mind making FfH more of a naval game... In fact, I would like to, just as I have expanded it towards late medieval/renaissance (and plan to continue if there is anything worth adding/fitting).
Also, I know Doviello are not vikings, but I am tempted to make them more viking - like. To let them attack from seas and spread to islands early game.
Currently they are leading as the least-fun civ (40% voters...). I have already enhanced their ties to animals, but I guess they need more than that.
So Doviello would end as vikings with lesser trade capabilities but enhanced berserking (werewolfs...).
So, how about giving them langskip - galley replacement, stronger, more cargo and ocean-faring, but with a chance to sink in ocean squares (5%?)
Maybe some cheap amphibious, too? From a coastal building perhaps?

Fire Galleon (pretty much what it is)
Fiery Brig (since Brigantine is a bit of a mouth-cruncher)
Arcane Brig/Bark/Barque

Arcane Barque it is then. Fiery Brig might end as Mechanos replacement.

I understand all that. My problem is that in a normal civ, you have plenty of units to let your Flesh Golem absorb to gain more power and abilities. If all you have are undead, then you have one neutered Flesh Golem since about the only living units the Scions have is Korinna and their Fort Commanders.

Korrina is a hero so can't be added (if she can, then it is a bug I should fix). Scions' Fort commanders will be undead (added in patch e). But that is not a problem - I added a special scion spell to make up for the loss of the flesh golems mechanics. So, you get two spells, and golems are free summons, usable even in raw form. Also, Scions can often capture a unit or two - glory of the empire is great for that.
So, I do not see a problem - in FF they just get special spells, so treat normal ones here as a bonus . Life II on the other hand, with destroy undead spell... Now that is a suicidal one...

 

[Brokenbone]

Very good modmod, haven't got a lot of specific feedback, just wanted to say thanks.

Since I see folks praising fort commanders just above, an oddity I noticed is that if you've got a Twincast capable unit (in my case, it was Hemah), guess how many Fort Commanders he can summon if he's the one claiming a fort? Probably unintentional to get double commanders.

 

[KingArthur666]

I have checked the save. Dendrom (northern Ljosalfar city) has a large stack of Priests of Leaves. Some of them have attack/missionary AI. When I changed it to AI city defense in world builder, the game progresses fine. Do you know how to change it? If not, I will post a "fixed" save.
No idea what is causing the problem, so I have no idea how to cure it for good.

I'll take a look at it when I get some free time later today. I'll let you know if I can't figure it out.
Glad to hear the Scions fort commanders will be fixed soon.
Speaking of fort commanders. I noticed they get the empowered promotion from their creator, not sure if that is intended. They will also be hidden nationality if the creator was HN.
I forgot to mention before, because I'm not sure how they are supposed to work, but are the Scions reaching creeper things supposed to die after one turn? I don't know how you are supposed to make them grow and get promotions if they die after one turn.

 

[Brokenbone]

I don't know if the Empower business was intended either, but it's been that way as long as I've known of it... i.e., if someone's going to "plant the flag", pick your highest Combat 5 guy if possible (again, it's why I was using Hemah to claim forts, since Twincast requires Combat 5, you know you're getting the most possible bang for buck).

 

[arkham4269]

I think a bit later ship could fit Lanun better. How about holk - a cog replacement that can enter ocean squares but has a low (2% ?) chance to sink if there. And I do not mind making FfH more of a naval game... In fact, I would like to, just as I have expanded it towards late medieval/renaissance (and plan to continue if there is anything worth adding/fitting).

Holk? Did you mean hulk? Not sure why you'd want them as they don't move. Looking at the different types of ship names, I'm not quite sure how to go. Looking at what a cog is, I'd say the 'better' Luann replacement would be the Chinese junk but that hardly fits their image.

From what I can tell, the evolutionary line of ships goes cog to caravel to carrack to galleon. After that it seems all the ships seem to switch over to the fore & aft type ships of all sizes that are 'basically' the same ship in different sizes and number of sails (sloops of war, brigs, barques, corvettes, frigates & clippers)

Seems to me that the Luann need to be the Portuguese and perhaps have a carrack instead of a caravel since the carrack is listed as being more sea-worthy than the caravel which was designed more for coastal work (such as skating down the coast of Africa) than actually going any distance over open ocean.

Actually the problem with FfH ships is that the galley design was the predominant ship for a long period. The difference was the medieval galleys (or galleass (large) galliot (small)) was that they started mounting guns. So without some magical equivalent of canons, you really wouldn't get that much difference in offensive power between ships. Obviously as ship designs allowed for bigger ships as well as more maneuverable ships the ram would become useless. So until canons are invented, without a magical equivalent, you'd pretty much be reduced to having mages on your ships which pretty much what a Arcane Barque is.

Not sure how people want to do it. Perhaps a new tech of Naval Weapons could be thrown in. That way you could have something like this.

Early Ships - most flat bottomed ships with oars
Galley - transport/merchant (coastal)
Trireme - combat (coastal)
Cog - transport/merchant (coastal but can go into sea tiles with chance of sinking)
Galleass - combat (as with the cog)

"Medieval" Ships - Switching to full sail capable
Caravel - transport/merchant (coastal/sea safe - good chance of sinking in ocean tiles)
Carrack - Luann UU - As with Caravel but with much less chance of sinking in ocean tiles.
Galleon - transport - Small chance of sinking in oceans.
War Galleon - combat - As with Galleon. Actually, according to Wikipedia, most Galleons were used for combat as they were actually cheaper than the smaller but more seaworthy carracks but oh well.

Late Era Ships - Switching to the sleeker hulls and more complex rigging with no chance of sinking in oceans.
Barque - transport/merchant (fast)
Frigate - combat (light and fast)
Ship of the Line - combat (heavy and slower)

Optional Later Era Ships
Clipper - transport/merchant - Putting the fast in fast.
Man of War - combat (Final phase of the sailing combat ship)

I'm thinking that when it comes to ships, an idea from basic Civ (or is it from Rise of Mankind?) is that later vessels get bonuses against earlier vessels. I'm sure this could get played with a bit, but it seems like this to me.
Trireme is to warrior
Galleass is to axeman/swordsman
War Galleon is to Champion
Frigate is to Beserker
Ship of the Line is to Phalanx

Oh, and I'm also thinking that the whole sea monsters need to be revamped. Either have the critters get nastier as the game progresses like the barbarians do or split the monsters into weaker coastal ones and then have sea and ocean going ones that are tougher...although I'm not sure how you'd keep the latter from going into coastal tiles.

 

[arkham4269]

Also, I know Doviello are not vikings, but I am tempted to make them more viking - like. To let them attack from seas and spread to islands early game. Currently they are leading as the least-fun civ.

Well one could argue that since both the Doviello and Illians seem to be snowy, tundra type Civs, that fishing would have to be important part of their diet since they just don't have the agriculture so having ships isn't that much of a problem.

However, I agree about the Doviello because I think it would fit into their personality of striking like a wolf pack quickly and then leaving. Since they aren't really big on tech development, perhaps their ships building would go.

Early Ships
Galley - coast transport
War Galleys coastal combat - I don't think the Doviello would have the patience (or the population) to go through the design process to get biremes and triremes so their combat ships wouldn't be as tough.

"Medieval" Ships
Snekke/Ssnekkja - small transport - good chance of sinking in seas. No ocean
Bryding - larger transport - lesser chance of sinking in seas, ocean capable at high risk
Drakkar - combat/transport - as above

Late Era Ships
Knarr/Knorr - larger transport - Game play versus historical. Since the Doviello would get these earlier than most races, I think it would be better to go historical and still have these units have a small chance to sink in seas and then moderate risk in oceans.
Skied - combat/transport - as above

I would think that the 'late era ships' would actually happen much earlier than the other naval technology but then also either end or then switch over to the Caravel type ships. With the rate of Doviello tech advancement, even if they could get those later ships, they tend to get them later.

I would think that all of the Medieval and Late ships should have access to the pirate raid promotion since all of them had hull bottoms that could be beached and thus didn't need ports. Perhaps, like the Luann, the Doviello could have a Reaver unit similar to the Boarding Party.

Other quick naval points. I think the Mechanos need a steam sub!

 

[arkham4269]

Korrina is a hero so can't be added

So far in my game, Korriana does seem to be able to be 'eaten' by a flesh golem.

 

[arkham4269]

Earlier in your response to my wanting prize ships, you said that pirates already get you gold. Since I rarely buy them, I'm probably missing out so if what I'm about to write isn't exactly true, please forgive me.

I personally think the "Pirate" ship is stupid. Piracy has been around since boats where invented. In many eras, a pirate was simply any ship that came upon another ship that they thought they could take. If you weren't one of us, you were fair game as it were. So I think that any ship should be allowed to be able to buy the Pirate promotion in a port in addition to being able to get it for 'free' via a promotion. A lot of countries paid to outfit 'pirates' as investors and would often get huge returns when raiding the Spanish.

Additionally, after some tech like Education, I think that combat ships should have be able to get a "Letters of Marque" promotion that would enable them to get gold for 'sinking' an enemy vessel to represent the prize money. Now I don't know if there is a way to code it so that you only get money for non-barbarian ships/monsters.

Plus, since I don't buy pirates, maybe I'm not seeing it, but I've never seen (that I remember) getting any for taking a ship with a pirate. Plus, since pirates have booty (that being their purpose!) taking a pirate ship should also get a bonus.

Plus, one could have a few events a la Sid Meier's Pirates! where you have a 'special' pirate ship appear in an area and you get alerted about it. Whoever kills this pirate gets a big bonus.

 

[Ahwaric]

By holk I mean (from wiki):
"Originally, a hulk (sometimes spelled "holk") was a type of medieval sea craft somewhat similar to a cog and a technological precedent of the carrack and caravel."
It was simillar to cog from which it evolved, but was larger and had more than one mast (typically two or three). Picture
Carrack was from the same time as caravel, larger and better suited for a transport ship (but worse for exploring).

So, I might just add carrack as Lanun caravel replacement and allow it to transport normal troops (as caravels can't). But I do not want them to sink. I do not want to add sinking to galleons, too. I doubt it would be fun.
However, I prefer to add early ships replacement that can enter ocean squares but you will do it at your own risk. So, holk was my first thought. It is just one step away from caravels and was used a lot by Dutch merchants (I picture Lanun more after Netherlands than Portugal)

Regarding galleas, it is the reason that trireme is so strong and upgrade directly to frigate.
I try keep things simple and not and too many units (well, Uniques are fine, but not too many classes). Ships have to be distinct, so I will not add any other class.

Letter of marque is already in, requires combat 1, can be taken by any ship and provides ability to hide nationality and generate gold from victories (just like bounty hounter, but 10 instead of 2).
I thought of removing privateer unit from game. True, there was no specific hull that served this purpose, but most of them were merchant ships converted to battle uses. So, I decided that while frigates can raid the seas, most units fall into "privateer" category - small and not so well armed vessels, but starting with letter of marque...