Orbis - the original thread

[arkham4269]

Some "quick" thoughts on a Asian Civ.

In my original thoughts on this (back many a page in this thread) is that while the Sidar are 'boring' and need help, I really don't seem them being a good Asian flavored. So here are my suggestions.

Suggestion the First: Change the Grigori - To reiterate what I said back in the day, Cassiel latches on to a group of men who where a bit separated from the rest (perhaps on an island?) prior to the Fimbulwinter. Then after the Age of Ice ends, 'His' people are ready to go out and preach peace and agnosticism.

1. Changes to units: The Adventurer unit represents the sort of traveling samurai/ronin so popular in Asian literature. (Watch out for the unit with the baby carriage ) The medic would be more like a warrior monk. (Shades of David Carradine in Kung Fu) Same with the Luonnotar. Of course you'd expect a Asian flavored civ would have some sort of alchemist unit considering all the 'natural philosophers' China had.

2. Changes to the Civ: What is up with the Grigori anyway? They preach pacifism yet they have Adventurers and Dragon-slayers. You'd expect that almost more from the Bannor. Plus I don't really see value in their world spell either. Plus, you'd expect them to be able to build a 'anti-missionary' that would be able to use inquisitional powers to remove religions in other cities, perhaps in a more 'damaging' way like the Scions Peleus' spells are. I mean removing a state religion from a city would probably cost some and probably have a good chance to anger the Civ you do it on.

3. Potential Problems: Depends on what is done with them. Next to the Sidar, I feel the Grigori are boring so changing them to me seems like a win-win situation

Suggestion the Second: Change the Elohim. Do we really need another Civ run by old white guys or women with blond hair?

1. Changes to units: First off, the "Devout" is practically a ninja right now and they already have monks! That and their world spell creates the Great Wall of China effect so we're half-way there! Not much has to be done but switch all the unit animations to more Central/Far Asian flavor and muck around with the names.

2. Changes to the Civ: Again, other than working on the name and that of some of their buildings (Reliquary becomes a Monastery) and change the name/art of Corlindale to be more of a Gandhi sort of guy, not much needs to be changed.

3. Potential Problems: In some respects, in light of the pacifism and tolerance, this civ might be better changed to a Indian Asian flavor instead of Chinese/Korean/Japanese Asian.

Suggestion the Third: Add the Kahdi Civ from FF. While I like this Civ, I think it would be better to be tweaked coming into Orbis. Instead of going the route of their "Planar Gates" bringing in thought energy beings and the like, I'd go the kami route in that all things have Kami and the Kahdi would be summoning them instead of these 'other-wordly' critters. Plus, I like the back story to the Kadhi and how in good Knights of the Old Republic style, you can go with Good or Evil

1. Changes to units:
A. Summoned Units: Like I said, instead of the units that the Kahdi has in FF, they would probably be able to either summon new kami themed units or perhaps some form of (weaker?) elementals. Depending on if it could be coded, maybe instead of matching what you get out of a gate (Kami Shrine) to a build like it is done with the Kahdi and Sheaim, perhaps it would depend on what mana you have. So no 'young' fire elementals unless you have fire mana.
B. Regular Units: Like the Sheaim, the Kahdi don't have a lot of units. However the back story says the Kadhi serve knowledge so it would make sense that they'd have really strong recon units and perhaps their assassins (ninjas) would also have the 'classic' ninja mission of spying. Another idea is I find that the AI doesn't play the Sheaim/Kadhi well and often doesn't build the gates and thus is stuck with just pyre zombies/axemen. So perhaps instead of being able to build unlimited champions, perhaps they could only build something like 4-8 (depending on world size?) and they'd be tougher. So you'd get your seriously nasty samurai but only a few. Perhaps you could also use the Korean Hwacha instead of canon as well.

2. Changes to the Civ: As I said, I like the back story of the temptation of Kahdi and him breaking off from the Amurites. I see him wondering off like Malakim and being accepted into some far off group of people who were inspired by his quest. I don't think there really needs much to be changed except for perhaps just changing the units and switching from bringing mystical 'thought creatures' and having more the kami elementals. Plus there are already lots of animations for treants, fire/ice/water/air/rock elementals. Plus I like the Kadhi's heavy duty mages; it fits my gaming style.

3. Potential Problems: As they stand right now the Kadhi are another Agnostic race and Ahwaric doesn't seem to want that. While the Kadhi in FF sort of have that Illian type 'cult of personality' going on, I really don't see any real need for them to be agnostic. I mean pursuit of knowledge doesn't mean you can't acknowledge that the Gods are everywhere in Erebus. The other problem, as I said, is the AI tends to have problems with the Sheaim/Kadhi due to stupid builds. That and it is adding another civ to the mix.

My personal feeling would be that changing the Elohim would be the easiest since most of it is just fiddling with the Civlopedia, names and the like. However, that doesn't seem too satisfying to me. I think with a lot of ideas from everyone out there, the Grigori could be fiddled with and made into something a lot more interesting. However, since these two races are already established FfH races, many might not want to see them mucked with. I'd rather go with Suggestion the Third because I like the Kadhi as a Civ and they already have a Asian leaderhead even if most of the unit animations look Arabic.

 

[arkham4269]

I don't see any reason why the Doviello should particularly like trees either, not that they would particularly dislike them either.

Well with trees on tundra, you have more options of building a forest lodge, a lumber mill or least some for cutting them down. Plus at least with the forest lodge you have the change of getting some useful resources later on.

 

[Opera]

Still on my Svart/Volanna game! I must be near turn 540 now. The AC is at 15, which is not the highest it got; it had been 20 or so before I killed some Ragnarok units. Khset (Mazatl) summoned Basium; they attacked Sheelba (Clan) who follows AV. She was researching Infernal Pact and building many units in her capitole, which have Prophecy of the Ragnarok. I'm playing evil but not world-end evil, so I began gathering a beautiful army at her borders. Khset/Basium asked me to help us into war, I agreed.

Here come the troubles: Sheelba has, say, 12 Ritualists in her cities. So she has 12 skeletons. All with Empower III. And those Ritualists uses Ring of Fire (or something similar). I can't reach the Ritualists because the Skeletons are weaker and the Archers stronger. Basically, whenever I manage to kill some Skeletons, they summon some more. I managed to block reinforcements (thanks to a choke point and this great Alazkan).

How am I supposed to deal with that? Well, I think I have some elements: I need Life II, Fire II and Air II, right? Mass damage. But I still think the Ritualists are a bit overpowered.

 

[Seon]

Well I have a similiar problem in my game in Amurite as Svart decided to go AV. I used my standard blitzing tacting by curving my army through her Empire directly into her Capitol city and ignoring all other surrounding city (her capital city was located near my vassal so this stretegy worked, if there was trouble, bug out). They had managed to garrison their capital with at least 4 repeater crossbow, 28 assassins, 36 rangers, 8 swordmans, 9 longbowmen, and uncountable ritualists with their army of skellies. I remembered to upgrade one of my immortal unit with guardsmen, so there were no wizard casualties, but constant barrage of ballista fire and constant stream of skellies are starting to take toll on my army, they had taken out 4 of my battlemages 2 paramenders, and one squire. I even lost one of my immortal, which I beamed straight into another captured city near her capital along with 5 more siege mages, 2 paramenders, 1 wizards and a clockwork golem I managed to crack from a event. However, their fortress city gives their unit 110% defense and even my assassins cannot get a single skellie. Another reason I want her capitol city so badly is because it contains the prospectors guild headquarters.

Stop the ranting: I also have a bug of having a permanant Immortal Illusion that I got from stealing the black mirror

 

[A Golden Dragon]

opera: get more mages and more assassin's, that will do the trick, wound the archers with fireball , kill them with your assassin's, instead of the skellies, continue untill only the weaker units are left, do not use maelstrom (air II) it wounds the skellies, and then your assassins will kill them instead of the archers, while they will get resummoned.

seon... use siege mages to decrease the city's defense? and really get more wizards... you play amu's you need them (massive fireball spamming FTW! my brother plays them a lot, and really he can't be stopped for long.) once you have weakend them with fireball's your assassins should be able to kill. Also if you still have arcane lacuna, it might be a good time to use it to prevent them from summoning more skellies. but yeah it will take some time with that massive defense

 

[Seon]

I spam fireballs using my siegemages who decided to get channeling 2 from the beginning for some reason. I serously have 10 siegemages with their defense being 0% I also brought along 4 wizards just to make sure. But yet it seems not working. Togather with the battlemages, they are a formidable army casting 15 fireballs and 10 ranged attack per turn, but yet the city refuses to fall

 

[A Golden Dragon]

well you could try with heroes, unless units still come in the city? what religion do you follow?

more wizards can do no harm, 15 seems a lot but with such a mass of troops.... else you just need stronger units... (archmages for fire elementals.. and all the other stuff) if you have youre units at maximum strength you will need more...

perhaps you should go for the other cities first.

 

[Seon]

I have three immortals in the stack, about 3 paramenders, 10 battlemages, 4 firebows, 4 wizards, 5 stonewardens, 1 runekeeper that I am trying to rush there. I think I need to invest in air mana to break that stronghold 0_o

 

[Opera]

Braduk the Burning fell! I managed to smash their defense with Fire II, Life II (for the undead skeletons), Blur, Shadowwalk, Enchanted Blade, numerous heavy infantry and the fabulous Alazkan. That was a long epic siege. Now I just have to take two more cities to burn down the AV holy city. Unfortunately, I couldn't stop the summoning of Hyborem... BTW, isn't Infernal Pact a tech allowed only to AV followers? Because I made Sheelba capitulate and convert to FoL but she researched Infernal Pact nonetheless.

 

[Wauthan]

Hmmm.. I would have thought the new espionage options would have been a great way to soften up a heavily fortified city.

Which sort of brings up the topic of a bug I discovered. Svartalfar suck at spying. Why? Because the Ratcatcher is a recon unit and gets +1 strength from the civs "sinister" trait. Perhaps the Svartalfar should get a different class of unit? Perhaps an animal? The Catcherrat!

 

[Seon]

The Abysswalker is oriinally a class in a Korean d&d campaign for the darkelves.

 

[Ahwaric]

How am I supposed to deal with that? Well, I think I have some elements: I need Life II, Fire II and Air II, right? Mass damage. But I still think the Ritualists are a bit overpowered.

If that is only a bit, it is ok Whole AV is all about power after all.
Compare that with Order: Unyelding order, pillar of fire... True, they require high priest, but still.
Blinding light/crown of brillance anyone? Summon treant/kraken? Earthquake?

Braduk the Burning fell! I managed to smash their defense with Fire II, Life II (for the undead skeletons), Blur, Shadowwalk, Enchanted Blade, numerous heavy infantry and the fabulous Alazkan. That was a long epic siege.

And now you are happy, what is the purpose of the whole mod
If not with magic, strong artillery barrage can do wonders, too.
By the way, I think I will increase ranged damage (or ranged strength of some units) a bit, damage is often insignificant now.

Hmmm.. I would have thought the new espionage options would have been a great way to soften up a heavily fortified city.
Which sort of brings up the topic of a bug I discovered. Svartalfar suck at spying. Why? Because the Ratcatcher is a recon unit and gets +1 strength from the civs "sinister" trait. Perhaps the Svartalfar should get a different class of unit? Perhaps an animal? The Catcherrat!

Thanks for reporting this, I will block ratcatchers from getting sinister (and poisoned blade/blessed when we are at that). Good thing it is possible now using Xienwolf's code.
Do you think they should be recon units? And have combat strength? Upgrade to assassins? Does AI use espionage, especially the active missions?
Not much time to test it for myself, you know.
Catcherrat... You mean skaven hunter? I am thinking of some short menace from time to time. Goblins are not annoying enough (well, wolf riders probably are...), so maybe Skavens are the answer

Stop the ranting: I also have a bug of having a permanant Immortal Illusion that I got from stealing the black mirror

I think it was supposed to get fixed a long time ago. Will check it out.

@arkham4269
As a devoted Siriona's follower, I strongly object changing Elohim the way you proposed. Same goes for Grigori, they need some more, but that is not the way for them.
Regarding Khadi, I do not know them much. Need to check is they are "suitable". I do not want to mess other people creations. Some slight flavour adjustments and adding features that fit established lore is fine. But total rewrite I think require adding a new civ. Especially that after so many changes, alll that is left is the name, and that is simply confusing.
I mean, even if you play Orbis Doviello for the first time, you might be suprised with their new abilities, but I do not think your idea on the civ would change. They are still barbarian humans that value strength and survival above all, just have more toys to prove it.
So, going to check Khadi.

And by the way. One question on Doviello flavour. How do you think on changing Mahala's alignment to neutral and changing her picture. No idea what makes her more evil than Hannah... Plus, you know, she is a woman, but uses male picture from Icewind Dale...

 

[arkham4269]

As a devoted Siriona's follower, I strongly object changing Elohim the way you proposed. Same goes for Grigori, they need some more, but that is not the way for them.

Well I did say that mucking around with base line FfH Civs was bound to cause people to freak out. I was merely pointing out options.

Regarding Khadi, I do not know them much. Need to check is they are "suitable". I do not want to mess other people creations.

Well I think 'messing' with is a matter of interpretation and also merely asking. I mean you seem to have tweaked the Scions and their 'owner' seem not to mind.

Some slight flavor adjustments and adding features that fit established lore is fine. But total rewrite I think require adding a new civ.

Well like I said, I think the Kahdi's backstory fits very well into the history of Erebus. However, changing the flavor of the Civ to Asian is something that I don't think makes a massive change. First all, this IS the Civ with the leaderhead picture is that of Toshiro Mufune. Most of the changes I want to see is simply swapping out current unit animations for more Asian ones.

Especially that after so many changes, all that is left is the name, and that is simply confusing. I mean, even if you play Orbis Doviello for the first time, you might be surprised with their new abilities, but I do not think your idea on the civ would change. They are still barbarian humans that value strength and survival above all, just have more toys to prove it.

Well I don't think my change to the Kadhi would be that hard for people to understand; if anything it would be easier. Unlike the current Kahdi or the Sheaim, the creatures that come through your gate would be based on what Mana you have available. No fire mana, no fire elementals.

The 'big' change I think is that if you tied your 'planar' creatures to mana, they'd all have to be relatively 'mild' creatures with the ability to get nastier over time because as soon as you get gates, any mana you have could immediately start creating creatures. So unlike creatures that require buildings that higher techs, you'd have a lot of mid-level elementals with various special powers based on the type of elemental.

I don't believe this is a bad thing because the other Kadhi "super-power" is that they have the best mages in the game. So having a lot of middle powered units is okay when you can slam your opponent to death with magic.

However, having only mid-level 'planar' creatures, I think opens up my idea of allowing the Kahdi to have some units like Champions and the like, but only allowing a few of them based on world size.

So, going to check Khadi.

Do it, I think you see that my ideas aren't that far out. And even if they are, no reason you can't just take the base theme from the Kadhi and make a new Civ. Personally, though, I like the Choose Good/Choose Evil part of the Kahdi Civ.

And by the way. One question on Doviello flavour. How do you think on changing Mahala's alignment to neutral and changing her picture. You know, she is a woman, but uses male picture from Icewind Dale...

I always wondered about that name. I didn't realize she was a she due to the pic. I'm all for it the change. She could represent more of the "We own the hinterlands; you can have your cities and your laws - leave us alone" idea.

 

[Ahwaric]

Well I did say that mucking around with base line FfH Civs was bound to cause people to freak out. I was merely pointing out options.

I know Just kidding. But freaking out is something I would like to avoid.

Well I think 'messing' with is a matter of interpretation and also merely asking. I mean you seem to have tweaked the Scions and their 'owner' seem not to mind.

I asked and he didn't mind. Regardless, I tried to keep changes to minimum - to adjust them to Orbis, plus I thought that some spells could use some changes. But the leaders and main mechanics did not change.

Well I don't think my change to the Kadhi would be that hard for people to understand; if anything it would be easier. Unlike the current Kahdi or the Sheaim, the creatures that come through your gate would be based on what Mana you have available. No fire mana, no fire elementals.

I really your elemental idea. The elemental essences and such fit taoism I think. The only problem I see, eastern elements are different than the ones we are used in the west. Wood elemental anyone?

I always wondered about that name. I didn't realize she was a she due to the pic. I'm all for it the change. She could represent more of the "We own the hinterlands; you can have your cities and your laws - leave us alone" idea.

I know, it took me some time, too. But she is and even can flirt with Falamar...
To me, she is like a she-wolf, always protecting her pack. I do not think it makes her evil.

 

[Opera]

About Mahala: I would really like the changes. She's my favorite leader and it's a pity she's evil; she doesn't seem to be (even though in the scenarios she's a bit like "well, we don't fit in this world so let's fight alongside Auric", I don't see her like that). BTW, looking quickly at some pages I found this art; it's a bit too naked for me and maybe to "charadon" (the corpses, the axe).

About alignments: Why are all the Svartalfar leaders evil? I can understand why Faeryl is evil, being paired against good Arendel; but IIRC, Amelanchier is neutral, so this mean that either Rivanna or Volanna could be other than evil. The Svarts really don't sound that evil. Are they evil at all? Not-comparing to Ljosalfars? I think they're not the kind of people wanting the demons to wreak havoc, the world to merge with hell or to bathe in the blood of peasants.

About an asian civ: Well, it could be great. I'm not fond of the Kahdi civilization, however. A bit too "Kahd-centered". It seems hard to add another leader. And not having the possibility to choose between two or more leaders is just... well, sucky. Considering Mechanos/Asian, I have this that come to my mind.

About your mod: You're right, Ahwaric, you're mod is fun! I really like how I can do things with the guilds; I have founded the Circle of Transmuters in order to have access to Reagents: perfect to create archmages; I have founded the Prospectors for the production bonus (I had already some gold); and then I realized that coupling Prospectors and Vivaldi was so great! Due to the amount of resources used by Prospectors, I have ~10 units of gold; it makes this 10 units available to be changed into gold by Vivaldi! Reassure me: guilds are supposed to work like that? Producing one unit of reagent/gold/silk by unit of resource used?

Otherwise, my game is still going very well. I've taken another Clan city and I'm marching on Shazka, the AV holy city. I don't know if I take it (for Entropy mana due to Stigmata on the Unborn) and suffer the penalty or if I raze it in order to get closer to eliminating AV. BTW, Griffon Knights are great! Blitz! Yahoo! (And Alazkan is near level 15, and the Ring of Carcer is not far!)

 

[Seon]

About alignments: Why are all the Svartalfar leaders evil? I can understand why Faeryl is evil, being paired against good Arendel; but IIRC, Amelanchier is neutral, so this mean that either Rivanna or Volanna could be other than evil. The Svarts really don't sound that evil. Are they evil at all? Not-comparing to Ljosalfars? I think they're not the kind of people wanting the demons to wreak havoc, the world to merge with hell or to bathe in the blood of peasants.

I don't know about you, but lying, back-stabbing, plotting, assassinating, ninjaing, sinister, team-killing to steal their weapons seem pretty evil to my eyes

 

[Ahwaric]

About Mahala: I would really like the changes. She's my favorite leader and it's a pity she's evil; she doesn't seem to be (even though in the scenarios she's a bit like "well, we don't fit in this world so let's fight alongside Auric", I don't see her like that). BTW, looking quickly at some pages I found this art; it's a bit too naked for me and maybe to "charadon" (the corpses, the axe).

Thanks for the link. I have found another one (here too) and currently think it fits better, but like yours, too.

About alignments: Why are all the Svartalfar leaders evil? I can understand why Faeryl is evil, being paired against good Arendel; but IIRC, Amelanchier is neutral, so this mean that either Rivanna or Volanna could be other than evil. The Svarts really don't sound that evil.

What Seon said. We do not know much about Volanna and Rivanna, and certainly nothing that would imply neutral alignment. And Svarts are evil.
But true, Ljos have neutral leaders. Sometimes I think thessa should be good, considering her past (sacrifice few for the good of the many...), but Amelanhier is no doubt neutral.

Reassure me: guilds are supposed to work like that? Producing one unit of reagent/gold/silk by unit of resource used?

I always thought that they produce only one instance of th resource. Seems that I was wrong, but do not think it is much overpowered, so I can leave it as it is.

I don't know if I take it (for Entropy mana due to Stigmata on the Unborn) and suffer the penalty or if I raze it in order to get closer to eliminating AV.

Overcouncil has a resolution that bans entropy & death mana - it simply is not used, so no penalty either. But evil leaders can't join...

 

[Opera]

Thanks for the link. I have found another one (here too) and currently think it fits better, but like yours, too.

Yours is great. I didn't think about it but it would fit. I like the blue marks on her, they give something... well, I like it I'm still searching, just in case something great is lying somewhere on the web.

What Seon said. We do not know much about Volanna and Rivanna, and certainly nothing that would imply neutral alignment. And Svarts are evil.
But true, Ljos have neutral leaders. Sometimes I think thessa should be good, considering her past (sacrifice few for the good of the many...), but Amelanhier is no doubt neutral.

Okay, okay, I didn't think about it this way! But you can be neutral and lying, back-stabbing, etc. I take Hippus as proof!

I always thought that they produce only one instance of th resource. Seems that I was wrong, but do not think it is much overpowered, so I can leave it as it is.

Glad to hear it Basically, you have three couples: Prospectors/Vivaldi, Intricate Weaving/Carnival guild (forgot the name, please don't hurt!) and, iirc, Transmuters/Circle of Eight (or another one that use reagents)... It's very good, economically. However, without good timing/chance/being advanced, it's hard to synergize them.

Overcouncil has a resolution that bans entropuy & death mana - it simply is not used, so no penalty either. But evel leaders can't join...

Yeah, I thought about that... Well, I'll see. Maybe I'll put the Tower of Mastery for another game. Or maybe I'll just back-stab (oh, damn) them all.

 

[tyranny12]

So, I've in the past proposed a massive tech revamp for FfH and FF. At the time, Orbis didn't exist. Then I dropped off the face of the earth. I also quit my job, moved to London, and took up a postgrad degree, but that is neither here nor there.

Coming back, I encountered the same thing. Orbis is infinitely better, IMO, but still - FF, FfH, Orbis- tech balance is not my thing. I recall Alzara agreed.

So I have two issues with techs:

Balance; High level techs in some trees are nothing in others. Feral Bond and the Baron, and Beastmasters, (6000ish each) combined, cost less than Armored Cav, Warmounts, (15-20keach) etc... or, taken alone, Stirrups!!! - Horse Archers or the Baron, you choose? Optics (8000) or Religious Law or Medicine? It seems that the high levels are just not balanced.

Silos; I know. 'Specialization is the name of this game.' I don't care. I want a linked tech tree, I want natural advancement, and I do not want to reach 'pinnacle' techs like mercantilism and have them be a pinnacle! I want them integrated in the tree, with medicine, polearms, divine essence, and so on. I want to expand the lineup - so that we have more than 3/4 tiers of most units, and so that high priests and archmages don't come after all players (could be) fielding beastmasters and marksmen. I'd also like to make water and windmills worth something again.

So what does this rant come to? I don't know. I still have pages of notes of how I'd like to accomplish this. Orbimod fits my bill very close, and I can expand the entire low to mid tree to fit my needs. I have yet to successfully, ever, tie the silos at the to of the tree really together in my head.... how to we draw it to a close near the end game while still allowing people to play with their unique units?

Second, I'd love to hear opinions on this. I'd also love to do it, but I know my time constraints lately - I can't make these graphics even if I were to design a replacement tech tree again. (Much as I'd love to.) What does anyone think? I want - a longer FfH.

 

[sputnik323]

Reading about the espionage problems above, I thought it would be cool if the ratcatcher units could have a promotion to switch between attack mode and espionage. So in attack mode they would be like weak assassin units with a strength of 2 and marksman. They could then upgrade to assassins and more later on. (or another option would be to let assassins also do espionage missions and have this promotion carried on). After they attack, they could go back to doing espionage missions by using the promotion. That way it would solve the Svartalfar problem cause the espionage promotion would drop the attack down to 0, and then they would get +1 attack when they use the attacking promotion.