Overall Civ Elimination Thread

[svett89]

Arabia 26
Assyria- 3
Austria-16
Aztec- 18
Babylon- 21
Carthage- 11
Celts- 6
China- 25
Dutch - 12
Egypt - 2
England- 23
Ethiopia- 22 = 23
Germany- 20
Greece- 17
Huns- 14
Inca- 22
Indonesia- 17
Japan- 2
Korea- 21
Maya- 25
Mongols- 20 - 3 = 17
Ottomans 8
Persia- 22
Poland- 23
Portugal- 19
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 23
Siam- 22
Songhai- 16
Spain- 19
Sweden 22 + 1 = 23
Zulu- 23


No I didn't pick Sweden just because I'm Swedish.

Sweden is, in my opinion, the most versatile Civ in the game. Assuming you're playing on Emperor or lower it's typically feasible to start out without a clear goal for victory condition/overall strategy, and Sweden is the master at adapting. Two very good UU:s, (although they're slightly hindered by the fact that they are each part of a different line of melee units) and a UA that allows for so much versatility.

You want to go for culture or science? Go ahead, make lots of DoFs and watch that Great Person multiplier climb.

You want to go diplomatic? Again, go for lots of DoFs, and maybe even a war or two so that you can gift excess Great Generals to City States.

You want to go domination? You have two great unique units, and can easily keep up tons of City State relations by gifting excess Great Generals.


Mongolia: The Keshik is not the insane power-house-of-a-unit that it once was (it's still really good, though), and the Khans, while pretty convenient, are just... Uninteresting. The thing that makes me hate Mongolia though is the UA. 30 % power vs City States is just bad. If you go on a conquering spree on the City States, people will start hating you, and typically it's practically never worth conquering a single one of them. I mean, it's not the absolute worst UA imaginable, but it's boring since you rarely end up in a situation where you feel that you get a lot of use out of it. I will say, it's kind of awesome if you manage to conquer a CS or two in the very early game, essentially replacing founding new cities of your own. Overall though, it's just a pretty lame UA.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arabia 26
Assyria- 4 Keeping them in a bit longer. It's nice to be able to focus military, then catch up in tech. They have pretty much the best synergy of UU to UA there is in game.
Austria-16
Aztec- 18
Babylon- 21
Carthage- 11
Celts- 6
China- 25
Dutch - 12
Egypt - 0 eliminated. They're ok, but a focus on building wonders loses a lot when you're playing on higher levels with much risk in getting wonders.
England- 23
Ethiopia- 22 = 23
Germany- 20
Greece- 17
Huns- 14
Inca- 22
Indonesia- 17
Japan- 2
Korea- 21
Maya- 25
Mongols- 20
Ottomans 8
Persia- 22
Poland- 23
Portugal- 19
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 23
Siam- 22
Songhai- 16
Spain- 19
Sweden 22
Zulu- 23

 

[holywar]

Interesting comment, seeing as I've never seen a sea beggar that couldn't be blown to matchwood by a SOTL. I think the Dutch are certainly better than some civs and I quite like the sea beggar, but the most powerful naval civ? That's some claim!

I've never seen a SOTL that couldn't be captured by a sea beggar and turned against the English. One successful sea beggar raid, and the Dutch will have more SOTL than England. Two attacks from the start means the sea beggar can attack then move out of range, or if they have numerical superiority, can simply overwhelm the SOTL fleet (capturing half of them). Once you have sea beggars plus SOTLs, the coastal cities are a cakewalk. It's hard for England to produce naval units when they don't have any coastal cities left.

Dutch navy > English navy, and it's not close. Maybe Carthage has a better argument since quinquereme is available in Ancient, or maybe the Ottomans with their prize ship UA, but the English are hopelessly outmatched by the Dutch at sea.

 

[Memoryjar]

Nooo ! I just registrered for saving Egypt !


So.


Arabia 26
Assyria 4
Austria-16
Aztec- 18
Babylon- 21
Carthage- 11
Celts- 6
China- 25
Dutch - 12
England- 23
Ethiopia- 23
Germany- 20
Greece- 17
Huns- 14
Inca- 22
Indonesia- 17
Japan- 2
Korea- 21
Maya- 25
Mongols- 20
Ottomans 8 - 3 =5 : Don't remenber what is their UA, UU or UB. When i scroll, for setting civ, i skip them. Reload, when have them at random. No, please, give me back Egypt.
Persia- 22
Poland- 23
Portugal- 19
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 23
Siam- 22
Songhai- 16
Spain- 19
Sweden 22 + 1 = 23 : Just for the UA. Great persons for my self or for CS bonus. Handsome, like the country.
Zulu- 23

Anyway, hi all, i'm new. Going introduce myself in the correct subforum.

 

[greygamer]

Egypt - 0 eliminated. They're ok, but a focus on building wonders loses a lot when you're playing on higher levels with much risk in getting wonders.

I'm somewhat nonplussed that a balanced civ like Egypt got eliminated before the usual whipping boys of Spain and the Huns et al.

On a side-note I was messing around with the Byzantines today, trying to find a way to get a decent religion before the AI froze me out. Only to discover that the awesomeness of the Dromon really lies in it's upgrade path, I had 5 Galleass which took down a walled city and had the range prmotion by the time Frigates came around. Also the gold cost of a Dromon plus upgrade to Galleass is less than a Galleass, Of course Theodora has already been eliminated but they aren't all that bad, the UA feels as random as Spain's though.

 

[Walter R]

Dutch navy > English navy, and it's not close. Maybe Carthage has a better argument since quinquereme is available in Ancient, or maybe the Ottomans with their prize ship UA, but the English are hopelessly outmatched by the Dutch at sea.

Well we'll have to disagree on that one. Better not continue the debate in this thread or we'll get moderated (Ouch!)... I might start a thread entitled "Why does the English navy always kick Dutch ass?"




edit: You could post in the "...frigates unbalanced..." thread btw, where I made the point that the counter-measure to frigates was melee ships - I assume you'd agree with that given your liking for sea beggars.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

I'm somewhat nonplussed that a balanced civ like Egypt got eliminated before the usual whipping boys of Spain and the Huns et al.

On a side-note I was messing around with the Byzantines today, trying to find a way to get a decent religion before the AI froze me out. Only to discover that the awesomeness of the Dromon really lies in it's upgrade path, I had 5 Galleass which took down a walled city and had the range prmotion by the time Frigates came around. Also the gold cost of a Dromon plus upgrade to Galleass is less than a Galleass, Of course Theodora has already been eliminated but they aren't all that bad, the UA feels as random as Spain's though.

Plus those dromons have that nice vs naval promotion that carries over. I like to go bombard with them so they're good against both naval and land units. It's the randomness of religion that's annoying more than anything. Nothing more rage inducing than some AI popping the last religion slot when you're sitting on 230 or so faith.

 

[Merciorum]

I'm somewhat nonplussed that a balanced civ like Egypt got eliminated before the usual whipping boys of Spain and the Huns et al.

On a side-note I was messing around with the Byzantines today, trying to find a way to get a decent religion before the AI froze me out. Only to discover that the awesomeness of the Dromon really lies in it's upgrade path, I had 5 Galleass which took down a walled city and had the range prmotion by the time Frigates came around. Also the gold cost of a Dromon plus upgrade to Galleass is less than a Galleass, Of course Theodora has already been eliminated but they aren't all that bad, the UA feels as random as Spain's though.

Wait, the Dromon's special promotion upgrades with it? If so, that changes a lot...

 

[ixias]

Unless I completely missed something or they changed that in the latest patch, the Dromon does not keep it's bonus vs navel when it upgrades.

 

[Deaths Deputy]

Arabia 26
Assyria 4
Austria-16
Aztec- 18
Babylon- 21
Carthage- 11
Celts- 6
China- 25
Dutch - 12
England- 23
Ethiopia- 23
Germany- 21 The fall patch changes mean that Germany is now much stronger. They Germans can now enjoy extra units at the start of the game, higher production from the mid-game onwards, Panzers in the late game and reduced unit upkeep all the way through.
Greece- 17
Huns- 14
Inca- 22
Indonesia- 17
Japan- 0 - Nothing they have is especially useful or interesting. Both UU's are meh, and the UA isn't very powerful compared to other, better civs. Japan out.
Korea- 21
Maya- 25
Mongols- 20
Ottomans 5
Persia- 22
Poland- 23
Portugal- 19
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 23
Siam- 22
Songhai- 16
Spain- 19
Sweden 23
Zulu- 23

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Unless I completely missed something or they changed that in the latest patch, the Dromon does not keep it's bonus vs navel when it upgrades.

It always used to. Did it stop with BNW or something? I haven't played as them for months.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Arabia 26
Assyria 4
Austria-16
Aztec- 18
Babylon- 21
Carthage- 11
Celts- 3 I never liked the conditions of the UA. It felt too much like a trade off especially if those forests had deer fur or truffles in them or happened to be on good river farmland. The UU is good for barb hunting but I never found that I got very much faith from it. I don't think the UB is bad at all but being third in line in its building line limits it somewhat.
China- 25
Dutch - 12
England- 23
Ethiopia- 23
Germany- 22 Germany got what Japan didn't in the patch. The increased barb conversion is very noticeable and will get you a hammer free army, possibly only having to build a couple ranged units before your first invasion. This means you can be an early warmonger and build wonders and infrastructure that other early warmongers can't. Once you run out of barbarians to bolster your numbers with you get the Hanse which both helps you produce troops and pay for them. If you somehow don't finish the game before Combined Arms you have a very powerful tank UU to mop up the last remaining troops that oppose you.
Greece- 17
Huns- 14
Inca- 22
Indonesia- 17
Korea- 21
Maya- 25
Mongols- 20
Ottomans 5
Persia- 22
Poland- 23
Portugal- 19
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 23
Siam- 22
Songhai- 16
Spain- 19
Sweden 23
Zulu- 23

 

[holywar]

Well we'll have to disagree on that one. Better not continue the debate in this thread or we'll get moderated (Ouch!)... I might start a thread entitled "Why does the English navy always kick Dutch ass?"




edit: You could post in the "...frigates unbalanced..." thread btw, where I made the point that the counter-measure to frigates was melee ships - I assume you'd agree with that given your liking for sea beggars.

Yeah, I started a thread a few days ago called "Sea Beggars - Coastal Dominance." Feel free to respond there if you'd like.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Unless I completely missed something or they changed that in the latest patch, the Dromon does not keep it's bonus vs navel when it upgrades.

Ok I checked the XML and you're right it does have the "lost with upgrade" tag. That's sad, Byzantium without religion is 100% vanilla after the classical. I could have sworn it used to. Would it be OP if it did or something?

Anyway sorry for the thread hijack, I just wanted to correct my mistake.

Also, the SotL vs. Sea Beggar debate. I think 1 on 1 the SotL would win because that's where str would matter. 4 on 4 or more and I think the Sea Beggars would win. Mostly because each round a SotL would probably get flipped and they'd be fighting their own. Having logistics on day one plus the prize ships promotion really would tip the balance. Numbers would be the important thing for the beggars. If you play the Dutch you need to spam a good number of them.

 

[greygamer]

Ok I checked the XML and you're right it does have the "lost with upgrade" tag. That's sad, Byzantium without religion is 100% vanilla after the classical. I could have sworn it used to. Would it be OP if it did or something?

Anyway sorry for the thread hijack, I just wanted to correct my mistake.

Also, the SotL vs. Sea Beggar debate. I think 1 on 1 the SotL would win because that's where str would matter. 4 on 4 or more and I think the Sea Beggars would win. Mostly because each round a SotL would probably get flipped and they'd be fighting their own. Having logistics on day one plus the prize ships promotion really would tip the balance. Numbers would be the important thing for the beggars. If you play the Dutch you need to spam a good number of them.

I don't think looking at it as 1v1 is fair as the Sea Beggar is cheaper and doesn't require a strategic resource so they can out number frigates/SoTL in the long run, also you would loose some SoTL to captures so the Dutch fleet ultimately grows stronger.

 

[Monado]

Arabia 26
Assyria 4
Austria-16
Aztec- 18
Babylon- 21
Carthage- 11
Celts- 3
China- 25
Dutch - 12
England- 23
Ethiopia- 23
Germany- 22
Greece- 17
Huns- 14
Inca- 22
Indonesia- 17
Korea- 21
Maya- 25
Mongols- 17 I really enjoy playing as Mongolia, but since BnW I find that Genghis AI's growth and expansion is lack luster. He grows a large capital, and build a fair amount of units, but never seems to attack any of the nearby city states. Eventually the Mongols found a couple more cities, but way to late to be a threat in game. I want to see them dominating any nearby city states early!
Ottomans 5
Persia- 22
Poland- 23
Portugal- 19
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 23
Siam- 22
Songhai- 16
Spain- 20 Hit or miss UA. Either it doesn't get used, or you find a nearby wonder, have a settler by turn 5, and tons of religious points (combined with the +4 from natural wonder pantheon..which becomes +8). Either way, early explorations has been my favorite part of civ III, IV, and V. Starting a game as Spain, just to explore, and start again on a new map is just good fun.
Sweden 23
Zulu- 23

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

also you would loose some SoTL to captures so the Dutch fleet ultimately grows stronger.

That's kind of what I was talking about with the numbers thing and you're right about the cost and resources. It'd be more common to outnumber the SoTLs. I think too many people look at 1v1 str and make their decision based on that.

Zerging with beggars is unstoppable even for England imo.

 

[njmfff]

Mongols- 17 I really enjoy playing as Mongolia, but since BnW I find that Genghis AI's growth and expansion is lack luster. He grows a large capital, and build a fair amount of units, but never seems to attack any of the nearby city states. Eventually the Mongols found a couple more cities, but way to late to be a threat in game. I want to see them dominating any nearby city states early!

Are you serious about this? That's odd, since in 90% of my games where Mongols are on the map, Genghis will eat any CS that start around him. (usually 4-5 CS), then he drops few cities on his own.

I love when he and Alex (or Siam) spawn in the same game, since it cripples both Alex and Siam badly.

 

[Monado]

Are you serious about this? That's odd, since in 90% of my games where Mongols are on the map, Genghis will eat any CS that start around him. (usually 4-5 CS), then he drops few cities on his own.

I love when he and Alex (or Siam) spawn in the same game, since it cripples both Alex and Siam badly.

Yes I am serious, otherwise I would not have down-voted them for it. I have had this same experience more than a handful of times. I think I have defective Mongols.

 

[Sturmgewher88mm]

Yes I am serious, otherwise I would not have down-voted them for it. I have had this same experience more than a handful of times. I think I have defective Mongols.

My Mongols DoW CSs all the time; just don't capture any