Overall Civ Elimination Thread

[Mesix]

Arabia - 27
Austria - 15
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 21
China - 25+1=26 An early UB library which also provides extra gold along with a 2x shot UU crossbow...yes please!
Dutch - 5
England - 29
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 20
Greece - 17
Inca - 19-3=16 Another boring day in the mountains tending my terrace farms..."yawn"
Indonesia - 1
Korea -22
Maya - 28
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 19
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 16
Spain -8
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 21

 

[Troll4Hire]

I think it's not just level, the map type and number of humans in game also might change how an individual starts building an empire. For example an early german army mostly recruited from barb camps easily can do serious harm - probalby not to the capital itself, but a newly settled town, or just by burning up a couple of farms, mines, or a marble source - setting back the player in completing a relatively early wonder, and probably handing it over to another player (maybe Germany itself) for example.
I'd also might avoid an aztec "preschool session" sniffing around my borders, looking for scraps of culture and putting up fights where and whenever possible.

 

[njmfff]

Arabia - 27
Austria - 15
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 21
China - 26
Dutch - 5 - 3 = 2
England - 29
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 20
Greece - 17
Inca - 16
Indonesia - 1
Korea -22
Maya - 28
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 19
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 16
Spain -8
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 21 + 1 = 22

Zulu - if you're going to take over the world, there's no one better at doing it then Shaka. Their UA, UU and UB all work together as Swiss clock.

Dutch - Polders are awesome, Sea Beggars are great for taking down coastal cities, but I could never get a hang of their UA. I am one of those players that always struggles with happiness, so I really need those extra 2 happiness I lose from selling my last luxury. Nothing personal.

 

[limluigi]

Arabia - 27
Austria - 15
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 21
China - 26
Dutch - 2
England - 29 + 1 = 30 Solid naval power. The extra movement really helps with protecting trade routes. Only problem I could see is when playing with pangaea but I don't really play on those kind of maps.
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 20
Greece - 17
Inca - 16
Indonesia - 1 Indonesia is just too reliant on luck, and there's no semblance of synergy in its uniques.
Korea -22
Maya - 28
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 19
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 16
Spain -8
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

 

[Lord Lakely]

i'll bite

Arabia - 27
Austria - 15
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 21
China - 26
Dutch - 2
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 20
Greece - 17
Inca - 16
Korea -22
Maya - 28
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 19
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 17
Spain - 5
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

minus: SPAIN. It pains me that Indonesia got the boot before Spain did, because they are a lot better off imo. Indonesia OWNS Terra maps, where as Spain will always be a challenge barring a great deal of luck. If you don't spawn right next to a national wonder, then good luck to you - you'll need it as you won't be having ANY advantage to speak of for quite a while. Tercios and Conquistadors both are decent but not enough to save this Civilization from what is this game's bottom tier. Someone take them out before the Netherlands are plz.

plus: SONGHAI. Not the most powerful imo, but i always thought they were underrated. They are opulent and once you start pursuing your domination strategy, they become unstoppable. Even in times of peace they can handle themselves culturally and religiously. I think they merit a boost.

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

You would be wise not to seek logical reasons for voting here, when I raised that particular question it was explained that this is a 'social game' and that maybe I should spend my time on the Strategy & Tips forum. I'm not really sure where the warmongering is suicide philosophy comes from, although some do mention early wars being a no-no (Ancient/Classical eras?). This might also be level dependant.

My Mongols usually seek 'donations' from the city states once the Keshiks start to appear. I'm always amused when the AI DoW me just as I get Chivalry as well.

Nice to see some support for the Mongols, I also got into them by accident so it might be that they are just an easy target for the no-war types.

Early war is alive and well imo. It just requires a little more planning than it used to. People who say early war is a no-no just haven't figured it out yet. Some of the changes in the fall patch made warmongering easier, especially the reduced warmonger penalties when fighting a common foe.

In my current game as Germany I took Lisbon in the classical era, Thebes in the medieval and Addis Ababa in the industrial. I'm still best buds with Brazil, America and Korea and am tied with Korea in tech. Trying to decide who I should backstab first now, Korea or America. Might go for Korea just to get him before he gets nukes but America is closer and would be easier. Decisions, decisions.

Arabia - 27
Austria - 12 Used to be OP but the nerf to their UA makes it so expensive to use now. Hardly worth it anymore.
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 21
China - 26
Dutch - 2
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21 Loving the new Germany. One of the smoothest games I've played in a while.
Greece - 17
Inca - 16
Korea -22
Maya - 28
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 19
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 17
Spain - 5
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

 

[Merciorum]

Arabia - 27
Austria - 12
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 21
China - 26
Dutch - 2
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21
Greece - 14 UUs are poor, UA has been made completely redundant by Venice, Morocco and Portugal. Bad for a diplo victory, no advantages in any other.
Inca - 16
Korea -22
Maya - 28
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20 They may be somewhat naval-dependent, but they have the ability to summon vast amounts of gold without the restrictions Venice suffers.
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 17
Spain - 5
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

 

[bbbt]

Arabia - 27
Austria - 12
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 21
China - 26
Dutch - 2
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21
Greece - 14
Inca - 17Great UA. UI allows you to create solid cities in otherwise weak areas (hello hilly mountain tundra!). UU isn't so exciting, but that's the only weak spot.
Korea -22
Maya - 28
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 14 The extra gold from barbarians is nice, but everything else is just 'OK' - or maybe simply can be found elsewhere
Spain - 5
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

 

[njmfff]

plus: SONGHAI. Not the most powerful imo, but i always thought they were underrated. They are opulent and once you start pursuing your domination strategy, they become unstoppable. Even in times of peace they can handle themselves culturally and religiously. I think they merit a boost.

Finally, someone who shares my opinion on Songhai. Don't know why people hate them, but their cavalry is actually rather good. Fast with no penalty to cities (works great with their city pillage UA), it makes terrific tanks later on. Their temples cost no maintenance and give culture and faith, and you can always boost them with religion for happiness\gold. What's there not to like? (sure, their UA is bit clunky, but it was great in vanilla\gnk where you could war and war for hours)

 

[gaerraty]

Seems interesting topic, good reason to sign up

Arabia - 27
Austria - 12
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 21
China - 26
Dutch - 2
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21
Greece - (14–3) 11 I don't find them at all interesting to play.
Inca - 17
Korea -22
Maya - (28+1) 29 Pyramid is fantastical for both boosted science and early religion and with rushed Theology UA opens doors for all kind of victories. UU is also decent for early defense and barbarian invasions.
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 14
Spain - 5
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

 

[Haumea]

Arabia - 27
Austria - 12
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 18 Hard to choose who should go down, but I feel that while Babylon's bonuses are pretty strong (although I haven't used Walls of Babylon with any success) they don't change your playstyle in an interesting way like some of the either Civs here. It's the classic science chaser, and it might have been more interesting to see them with a unique Composite Bowman rather than unique Archer, or maybe a more interesting application of their unique building (a wall that also can give culture? those things were pretty awe-inspiring).
China - 26
Dutch - 3 The Dutch are built for a wide variety of tasks in which they can excel. Polders make for a new variety of interesting starts (I have an unfinished game as the Dutch where I am working 6 or 7 flood plains with Polders, along with having Desert Folklore and Petra, which is sexy – although I didn't play very well so it's not as awesome or huge as it could be). Nevertheless, sea beggars make for excellent naval units, and the Dutch East India Company means that your luxuries of which you only have 1 copy can still be worth trading. A Dutch player can give away their last copy of a luxury to get an extra copy of an AI's luxury, which is comparable to getting Protectionism on your luxuries, and makes swapping for We Love the King Day more valuable.
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21
Greece - 11
Inca - 17
Korea -22
Maya - 29
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 14
Spain - 5
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

 

[vibe96]

Arabia - 24 I don't like desert and they seem pretty uninspiring to me
Austria - 12
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 18
China - 26
Dutch - 3
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21
Greece - 11
Inca - 17
Korea -22
Maya - 29
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 14
Spain - 6 Totally OP.
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Finally, someone who shares my opinion on Songhai. Don't know why people hate them, but their cavalry is actually rather good. Fast with no penalty to cities (works great with their city pillage UA), it makes terrific tanks later on. Their temples cost no maintenance and give culture and faith, and you can always boost them with religion for happiness\gold. What's there not to like? (sure, their UA is bit clunky, but it was great in vanilla\gnk where you could war and war for hours)

You guys aren't alone. Some good barb hunting early on can net you a lot of cash for a solid head start. I don't think I've ever hard built a settler with the Songhai. Their UB should work really well with the BNW piety tree. I haven't played them in a long time. I loved them in Vanilla. Maybe BNW will give me good reason to revisit them. They'll handle BNW's economic system better than most warmongers and the UB is perfect for a piety start. Additional culture to get through the tree and maintenance free so theocracy is pure profit.

 

[BrotherInJah]

Arabia - 24
Austria - 12
Aztec - 19
Babylon - 18
China - 26
Dutch - 3 - 3 = 0
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21
Greece - 11
Inca - 17
Korea -22 + 1 = 23
Maya - 29
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20
Rome - 15
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 14
Spain - 6
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

Dutch - AI can't play them well.. bye bye..

Korea - i like from spec.. and beasty UU with so much

 

[Lordleoz]

Arabia - 24
Austria - 12
Aztec - 16
Babylon - 18
China - 26
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21
Greece - 11
Inca - 17
Korea - 23
Maya - 29
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20
Rome - 16
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 14
Spain - 6
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

+Rome: Legion and Ballista are an excellent combo that appears at the right time for war. The UA helps manage a large empire and is useful throughout the game.

-Aztec: Jaguar is too early for war, so it only helps defend against barbarians. UA is only useful when you are fighting, and still, the cultural bonus is not that big.

 

[ixias]

Arabia - 24
Austria - 12
Aztec - 16
Babylon - 18
China - 26
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 21+1= 22
Greece - 11
Inca - 17
Korea - 23
Maya - 29
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20
Rome - 16
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 14
Spain - 6-3= 3
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22

Germany wins the award for most improved Civ. They went from being a mid-tier warmonger to a upper middle (possibly top tier) all around Civ. The increased camp conversion rate lets you focus on infrastructure in the early game while not falling behind militarily. The Hanse is fantastic combined with Patronage and Freedom and really allows you to go for any VC.

Again, I don't think Spain belongs here with Civs like Babylon, China, Mayans, etc. Indonesia got voted out because people think they're too luck dependent, yet the Civ who's UA is completely based on luck stays in. Polynesia was eliminated because people said that they're too map dependent, yet there are maps with no Natural Wonders at all. Without a Natural Wonder, Spain has 2 mid-tier (at best) UUs.

 

[greygamer]

So much to either take umbridge with or applaud here

SPAIN. It pains me that Indonesia got the boot before Spain did, because they are a lot better off imo. Indonesia OWNS Terra maps, where as Spain will always be a challenge barring a great deal of luck. If you don't spawn right next to a national wonder, then good luck to you - you'll need it as you won't be having ANY advantage to speak of for quite a while. Tercios and Conquistadors both are decent but not enough to save this Civilization from what is this game's bottom tier.

Again, I don't think Spain belongs here with Civs like Babylon, China, Mayans, etc. Indonesia got voted out because people think they're too luck dependent, yet the Civ who's UA is completely based on luck stays in. Polynesia was eliminated because people said that they're too map dependent, yet there are maps with no Natural Wonders at all. Without a Natural Wonder, Spain has 2 mid-tier (at best) UUs.

I think I have already shown they are not luck dependent! Getting 500 gold early will make things very easy, but the real strength of the UA is the bonus from those natural wonder tiles. They don't fall into your lap you have to go find them. You might even have to use force to get them and keep them. Having 3+ of those tiles by mid-game is not too difficult.

I have been trying to get the hang of Indonesia and it is hard work. To get the advantage of the UA I have to wait for Astronomy on most maps. They might own on Terra maps (which I don't play) but that is no different to cooking the settings for another civ. They probably can be awesome but so are the Spanish once you get to the same tech, I'll take my advantages earlier if I can. I was reading a tier ranking thread and it placed Indonesia as bottom tier and Spain as 2 tiers higher, the only surprise is Indonesia didn't go earlier.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505057&highlight=diety

Greece - UUs are poor, UA has been made completely redundant by Venice, Morocco and Portugal. Bad for a diplo victory, no advantages in any other.

I am guessing you are also bad at early wars, they have a killer combo in their UU, the Companion Cavalry will kill any enemy units in the field and then Hoplites storm the cities (they are practically Swordsmen that don't require Iron and have a bonus against horses). Alexander as an early neighbour always gives me a hard time. Not to mention you will start with well promoted Knights and Pikes.

-Aztec: Jaguar is too early for war, so it only helps defend against barbarians. UA is only useful when you are fighting, and still, the cultural bonus is not that big.

The Aztecs can pile up social policies very quickly, especially if they go Honor, if you are using the Jaguars defensively you are doing it wrong. You will quickly have cities generating 4cpt in addition to 14-16 culture for each barb archer/warrior killed. Before long you have an army with some nice bonuses (in addition to the promotions). Monty is usually a powerful AI so something must be right with this Civ.

Early war is alive and well imo. It just requires a little more planning than it used to. People who say early war is a no-no just haven't figured it out yet. Some of the changes in the fall patch made warmongering easier, especially the reduced warmonger penalties when fighting a common foe.

In my current game as Germany I took Lisbon in the classical era, Thebes in the medieval and Addis Ababa in the industrial. I'm still best buds with Brazil, America and Korea and am tied with Korea in tech. Trying to decide who I should backstab first now, Korea or America. Might go for Korea just to get him before he gets nukes but America is closer and would be easier. Decisions, decisions.

To be honest I was a warmonger before BNW and nothing has changed. At first some people suggested gold was a problem but I didn't notice it, my strategy obviously didn't rely on lump sums from AI. I need to play some more early war civs, I started a game with the post patch Germans and it seemed to go fine. Usually my wars start with Chivalry, but Aztecs can be runaways with early war (I need to complete a game with them as well). The new diplo penalties punish you for taking early cities, does this also apply to cities won in peace talks? I usually just leave them with one city, if I am going for Domination I might even leave the Capitals for the endgame and take them all in quick succession.

I think it's not just level, the map type and number of humans in game also might change how an individual starts building an empire. For example an early german army mostly recruited from barb camps easily can do serious harm - probalby not to the capital itself, but a newly settled town, or just by burning up a couple of farms, mines, or a marble source - setting back the player in completing a relatively early wonder, and probably handing it over to another player (maybe Germany itself) for example.
I'd also might avoid an aztec "preschool session" sniffing around my borders, looking for scraps of culture and putting up fights where and whenever possible.

As a rule I like to train my troops up on non-capital cities. Once you have a few cover promotions and a plan even capitals can fall relatively quickly. My early wars are usually resourced based securing Iron/Horses, and pillaging can help pay the troops wages.

 

[ixias]

So much to either take umbridge with or applaud here


I think I have already shown they are not luck dependent! Getting 500 gold early will make things very easy, but the real strength of the UA is the bonus from those natural wonder tiles. They don't fall into your lap you have to go find them. You might even have to use force to get them and keep them. Having 3+ of those tiles by mid-game is not too difficult.

It's definitely luck based. You aren't guaranteed to find a natural wonder and even if you do, you may not be finding it first.

Don't get me wrong, Spain can be amazing. I had a game where I had the GBR and Old Faithful relatively close to my initial start. I easily got a two cities to work those tiles, chose One with Nature, and passed Cultural Landmarks. It was an incredibly easy game and pretty fun. Just from the NW tiles I had an insane amount of faith, culture, and science.

Once I finished that game, I loaded up a new game with the same exact settings since my last one was so fun. After scouting my entire continent, I didn't find a single Natural Wonder. Once I researched Optics, I found an unworkable Krakatoa and the Grand Mesa on the other continent, which was within another civilization's borders. The UUs, while not bad, weren't enough to make up for the lack of UA. If that isn't luck, I don't know what is.

The biggest problem I have with Spain (and the reason I think it should go) is because it's not consistent at all. In some cases, the Civ is extremely overpowered; in others, you essentially have no bonuses.

 

[greygamer]

It's definitely luck based. You aren't guaranteed to find a natural wonder and even if you do, you may not be finding it first.

Don't get me wrong, Spain can be amazing. I had a game where I had the GBR and Old Faithful relatively close to my initial start. I easily got a two cities to work those tiles, chose One with Nature, and passed Cultural Landmarks. It was an incredibly easy game and pretty fun. Just from the NW tiles I had an insane amount of faith, culture, and science.

Once I finished that game, I loaded up a new game with the same exact settings since my last one was so fun. After scouting my entire continent, I didn't find a single Natural Wonder. Once I researched Optics, I found an unworkable Krakatoa and the Grand Mesa on the other continent, which was within another civilization's borders. The UUs, while not bad, weren't enough to make up for the lack of UA. If that isn't luck, I don't know what is.

The biggest problem I have with Spain (and the reason I think it should go) is because it's not consistent at all. In some cases, the Civ is extremely overpowered; in others, you essentially have no bonuses.

First of all I just want to say, nothing personal, your post was just a good example of why Spain often gets voted down. Luck based can be applied to a lot of Civs; does your killer UU need a resource for example? England is the current leader but needs Iron for the SotL. No Iron on your continent well then what?

I already posted that I did a test with 10 starts (I know it is a small sample size although maybe interesting for distribution between good and bad starts), and only 1 was truly terrible and would have been for most Civs. The first 5 starts were really good, afterwards it fell to 50% what you might consider great starts and only 1 didn't present a Natural Wonder that was easy to get. That isn't luck, it suggest that the chances of not finding a Natural Wonder on your continent is pretty low.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12875014&postcount=278

I got 9 games out of 10 that I would be happy to continue with, some might be harder than others of course but they would all be fun. Indonesia on the other hand I am going to have to 'research' to find out what I am doing wrong. On each of my starts with them I was without a source of Iron as well, something that doesn't hurt the Spanish and they only need 1 or 2 horses to use Conquistadors to grab unclaimed natural wonders. Iron tends to disappear from trade deals just when you need it most.

With Indonesia you are hoping for two lots of luck, Iron for the UU and no bad luck with the promotion, otherwise you need to keep a low-profile until you can establish those off-shore luxuries. With Spain you can overcome bad luck with Natural Wonders because the AI doesn't seem to go after them, once again read the linked post for the evidence. People tend to focus too much on the +500 gold for being first to a wonder way too much. When I play as Spain I stack the deck by building another scout and if there is an AI near to that Wonder focusing on the Military to secure it. Sucessful in 9 out of 10 starts. Do I need to do 20, 50 ...100?

The point is even if there isn't a Natural Wonder on your doorstep the Conquistador gives you the means to safely get a settler there. Don't have Iron? Build Privateers to escort your ground troops and make that colony strong enough to stand up on it's own. It belongs to a City State or an AI, the Tercio can help win it for you.

I fully expect Spain will be the next to go, but it is at least as strong (or stronger) than many of the Civs that remain.

 

[Troll4Hire]

The Aztecs can pile up social policies very quickly, especially if they go Honor, if you are using the Jaguars defensively you are doing it wrong. You will quickly have cities generating 4cpt in addition to 14-16 culture for each barb archer/warrior killed. Before long you have an army with some nice bonuses (in addition to the promotions).

I totally agree. Even if the map is against you, you are still able to maintain an early cultural advantage... And not even the almighty Poland can beat that.
So Yes, I was going to add a point for the Aztecs, but then I decided to keep Spain in for at least one more round. I never was a fan of them, but again, i only had one or two games as Spain, so my knowledge about it's strengths are minimal - but Greygamer's post was really interesting, i'm thinking about trying them out again. So +1 for Spain.

And my victim would be Greece. Not sure if you guys wanna re-read my reasoning i wrote at my previous vote (when I downvoted Sweden), I still think having a UA with a city state "friendship" bonus can easily turned into a liability.

Arabia - 24
Austria - 12
Aztec - 16
Babylon - 18
China - 26
England - 30
Ethiopia - 25
Germany - 22
Greece - 11 - 3 = 8
Inca - 17
Korea - 23
Maya - 29
Mongols - 16
Persia - 17
Poland - 20
Portugal - 20
Rome - 16
Shoshone - 19
Siam - 22
Songhai - 14
Spain - 3 + 1 = 4
Sweden - 18
Zulu - 22