[NFP] Owls of Minerva discussion

[Kmart_Elvis]

Owls have a great synergy with Rough Rider Teddy. As Teddy, you get double envoys to any city state you have a trade route to. Owls give you +1 envoy every time you send a trade route to a city state. And if you get the chance to get the mission from a city state to send a trade route to it, you get 4 envoys. You'll basically get suzerain ship of every CS you can send a trader to. It's especially fun for diplomatic victory.

 

[Morningcalm]

Balance wise it does seem Owls are really powerful. I enjoy using vampires most, but they don’t seem as omnipotent as spies and economy boosts generally, since money always has a use for purchasing buildings or units. Do we think Owls might be getting a nerf, and say ley lines becoming more useful? I guess we will find out in a few hours whether the forthcoming update will address those.

 

[Pietato]

Balance wise it does seem Owls are really powerful. I enjoy using vampires most, but they don’t seem as omnipotent as spies and economy boosts generally, since money always has a use for purchasing buildings or units. Do we think Owls might be getting a nerf, and say ley lines becoming more useful? I guess we will find out in a few hours whether the forthcoming update will address those.

I doubt it. Owls require A LOT of extra production and district slots to get going; the district opportunity cost alone is MASSIVE. Vampires and the Void require nothing.

Alchemic need a serious rework, though. They are far inferior to the other 3.

 

[Sostratus]

The CH adjacencies seem fine to me. I see CH as a deliberately "weaker" District, that you either build in Coastal Cities to complement you Harbour or in weaker non-coastal Cities when there's nothing else to build.

But yeah, +2 adjacency for Oases. I play with a mod that does that. Nice for RP / feel, but it's rare the actual adjacency comes up.
).

It’s not that I think CH are weak. I think behind campus they are the best district in the game. (Mostly due to trade routes.)
It’s just that CH adjacency for everyone but Mali is an absolute after thought.

There is precisely one way to make a naturally good CH- river+harbor combo. That’s it. Any other choice is “put more districts around it.”

Technically you can do some shenanigans with multiple harbors but given harbor-city center synergy (adjacency, lighthouse bonus, etc) you’d be silly to do that in most cases where a Harbor is practical.

The trade route and gold buildings are also just handed unconditionally to me. It’s quite boring and I dislike that I never get excited about finding a city site with “good CH potential” unlike the other districts.

 

[acluewithout]

It’s just that CH adjacency for everyone but Mali is an absolute after thought.

Maybe we’re talking at cross-purposes.

My point is the poor adjacency potential of Commercial Hubs (outside of Harbours) is a feature not a bug. Like Theatre Squares, they generally have poor adjacencies. So, you’re either building them for the buildings or because you have nothing better to build. I think CH low adjacencies are actually quite well balanced given how easy CHs are to research versus Harbours, how easy they are to place versus Harbours, how strong the Market is, and what good value Great Merchants are.

CH buildings are dreadfully boring. Totally agree on that.

 

[Datian]

I don't understand why CH buildings are "boring", they are not meant to be entertaining...
They're here to generate gold, just as campus buildings generate science, Or HS faith...

 

[acluewithout]

"boring"

I guess “boring” is synonymous with having a “flat” design, ie mechanically is not situational. Banks and Stock Exchanges are particularly bad, not just because they generate flat gold in all situations but also there are easier sources of gold so the reality is there’s no point to build them at all!

 

[CoconutTank]

I also want to add that Gilded Vaults are unlocked by a Renaissance era tech, whereas the Ritual benefits for the other 3 SS are available immediately upon or very close to when the Ritual title is taken in Medieval era. Gilded Vaults are cool but take a lot more time to get to.

 

[Pietato]

I also want to add that Gilded Vaults are unlocked by a Renaissance era tech, whereas the Ritual benefits for the other 3 SS are available immediately upon or very close to when the Ritual title is taken in Medieval era. Gilded Vaults are cool but take a lot more time to get to.

Yeah. You have to have reasonable science, beeline banks, AND have the commercial hubs/markets down. Also you need to slot the adjacency card, have harbour triangles, etc.

It was a zillion times more work than 'build castle' or 'do nothing lolvoid'.

Finished my Dido Owls game. It was annoying with 60 trade routes...

I would say Owls are weaker than Vampires and the Void, because they need far more work and higher tech. The Owls final bonus also sucks, if you get that far.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I doubt it. Owls require A LOT of extra production and district slots to get going; the district opportunity cost alone is MASSIVE. Vampires and the Void require nothing.

Alchemic need a serious rework, though. They are far inferior to the other 3.

Until you get Reyna's last promotion and just buy all the districts with all that money you made, becuase they're pretty cheap.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Until you get Reyna's last promotion and just buy all the districts with all that money you made, becuase they're pretty cheap.

Yeah, I mean trade routes can give you a whole bunch of basically anything you want. I don't think they're extra work (except for the clicking) you just need to change your priorities.

 

[Sostratus]

Yeah, I mean trade routes can give you a whole bunch of basically anything you want. I don't think they're extra work (except for the clicking) you just need to change your priorities.

Vampire castles are pretty solid- I mean you might be able to pull in 40-50 yield per castle eventually- but that’s only 4ish trade routes worth. Slap a few districts down in the city with the GP, toss in magnus, you can extract 10+ yield pretty early game on domestic routes.

And you can move the traders around!

 

[tedhebert]

Just finally got an invite to Owls in my RR Teddy game at... turn 143 ;-( Pretty much kills the only reason i decided to play RR Teddy in the first place, honestly ;-(

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Just finally got an invite to Owls in my RR Teddy game at... turn 143 ;-( Pretty much kills the only reason i decided to play RR Teddy in the first place, honestly ;-(

Well, it's a very exclusive club . . .

*adjusts monocle*

 

[Pietato]

Yeah, I mean trade routes can give you a whole bunch of basically anything you want. I don't think they're extra work (except for the clicking) you just need to change your priorities.

You only get the extra trade route if you build a Gilded Vault in a city with a harbour, you do not get it for free...

- You need to beeline banks
- You need to build a harbour AND a commercial hub in your cities
- You need to build Gilded Vaults and traders

Vs.

- Use castle charge

or

- Nothing

Does no one understand opportunity cost? District limits?

 

[Datian]

You only get the extra trade route if you build a Gilded Vault in a city with a harbour, you do not get it for free...

- You need to beeline banks
- You need to build a harbour AND a commercial hub in your cities
- You need to build Gilded Vaults and traders

Vs.

- Use castle charge

or

- Nothing

Does no one understand opportunity cost? District limits?

It looks like I don't, because I'm one of the morons, thanks for pointing it out.
What I do understand however, is that when I play a game focused on trade, I already had a CH in every land city and /Harbour triangles in every coastal one, that the culture brought by the gilded vault has its own value even without one more trade route, and that since the beginning of the game I had an extra commercial card.

Maybe Minerva isn't all powerful, or easy to play than others. I'm fine with it, one society has to be stronger or more reliable than the other. Using it nonetheless doesn't mean "no one understand opportunity cost".

 

[Deadly Dog]

It's true that medieval promotion with the owls might as well come in the Renaissance. But the ancient era bonus is so incredible especially if you play a civ that has extra trade routes to begin with. The card slot is useful from Code of Laws on with no investment cost. The free envoys have a slight opportunity cost if you would normally prefer domestic trade routes, I suppose.

I even sort of got happy when I lost a trader to Barbs. Had to buy a trader of course but got yet another envoy even much sooner.

Anyway I'm still undecided. Vampire castles were a huge thing in my Maori game they were like IZ's and Harbours in 1 tile for the food/prod/gold and like Rapa Nui/Colossal Head/Ziggurat in one tile for the Science/culture/faith. But that's pretty extreme, the vampires themselves have mobility issues and are dependent on you investing in a military anyway. So for a peaceful/trading civ strategy I really think Owls are the way to go, unless you have a faith economy in mind in which case Voidsingers may be best.

Owls from Day1 give you very nice bonuses with no investment required. Medieval bonus requires some serious infrastructure to work, probably won't see much benefit until Renaissance. After that I don't know yet but industrial era wildcard slot seems like another really useful thing.

Vampires give you a unit and not much else until medieval, then if you have planned ahead and got 2 sites selected you can boost your capital significantly. Keeping a builder with 1 charge at a castle means you can update it's yields in 1 turn when your vampire is "home", so this can continue to improve.

Voidsingers require an investment in an expensive monument, and only work if you can use faith and relics. Medieval bonus here is really nice, no serious work needed other than having good faith generation. Flipping cities peacefully with cultists is tedious but I suppose it can turn the tide in your favour in late expansion phases.

Hermetic Order I can't say anything except that they look really weak or really niche. Screenshots of ley line yields don't impress me much as I said I've had some insane Vampire Castles.

 

[kaspergm]

Just finally got an invite to Owls in my RR Teddy game at... turn 143 ;-( Pretty much kills the only reason i decided to play RR Teddy in the first place, honestly ;-(

I get this frustration, I'm playing a game as BM teddy and was well within the Medieval era before I got an invitation to Sanguine Pact from clearing my 4th barb camp. I know random is random and sometimes you're just unlucky, but I'm not sure I'm a big fan of the current invitation system.

 

[Pietato]

It looks like I don't, because I'm one of the morons, thanks for pointing it out.
What I do understand however, is that when I play a game focused on trade, I already had a CH in every land city and /Harbour triangles in every coastal one, that the culture brought by the gilded vault has its own value even without one more trade route, and that since the beginning of the game I had an extra commercial card.

Maybe Minerva isn't all powerful, or easy to play than others. I'm fine with it, one society has to be stronger or more reliable than the other. Using it nonetheless doesn't mean "no one understand opportunity cost".

I never called you a moron...but if you were building commercial hubs in every harbour city before Owls, then you really do need to consider more what you are missing out on.

Owls are not weak (except for their final promotion). They just require a lot more effort and investment to maximise, compared to Vampires and Void, and also rely a lot more on the map. If I had to rate the different societies:

Void - A (S for high faith civ or Eleanor)
Vamps - A (S for Gran Columbia or with Apoc on)
Owls - B (A+ on water map with accessible city states)
Hermetic - E

 

[Deadly Dog]

A couple more attempts to snowball with the Owls, and I have to agree now with your list. I would extend your "water map" statement to include fractal maps or any situation with isolation from civs but close to CS, but really I think deciding to join Owls needs to be considered after some exploration. If there are no City States, or just a couple of lousy ones, within range of your traders, you're not getting much. But 4-6 nearby CS whatever the map makes the T1 ability fantastic.

Owls are very tempting when playing Matthias and Suleiman of course but its hard to turn down the Sanguine Pact if I'm at all playing a military game (conquering or liberating or raiding/pillaging, defending, whatever). And choosing Sanguine Pact allows for a booming capital city from the ME onward.