[BTS] Pacal II Low Commerce Start Immortal Shadow Game

[CGQ]

Haven't done one of these in a while. Been winning consistent Immortal games left and right but I want to take it to the next level before I try Deity again! This start is a bit tricky.

The start:

Warrior isn't going to reveal more. I have Expansive so SIP then work PH for fast worker? Maybe settle on Wine (But then no lighthouse). Settle on PH and potentially find seafood? As far as I know, there's no rivers or fish nearby so far so commerce looks pretty scarce here especially for a financial leader. I know AGRI is the first obvious choice for tech and maybe fishing to work lake for commerce? I'm not sure what to do here.

Back when I said I've been winning immortal games, most of them are with either financial leaders, capital with good food and rivers, and/or a combination of both. Low commerce starts are my weakness so hopefully some of the experts here can help me overcome this and make the best out of this map and others like it when commerce is scarce.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Spoiler :

One thing to check out first: Does the corn have fresh water? I think not, but better double check. If it has it might be a good idea to stay closer to this lake.

I would suggest to send the settler to the PH 1N2W. Granted, that looses fresh water, but with being expansive this has less of an impact.

It also picks up more land tiles, but looses the two BFC tiles without forests that might contain resources, but at best that is copper or horses, so not that helpful here.

Regarding the starting BFC, there might also be seafood 2N1E and I feel SIP might orphan some seafood in the east.

I think you considered settling the PH 3S? (hoping for seafood? I do not think 1N2W has coast) This is a bad idea for multiple reasons, first you loose the food you know about, second you go into the desert, third it has no visible food, and the warrior can even get all relevant information for 3S.

Re: commerce.

Fishing pays for itself in about 25 turns (3 /turn) at the cost of 1 /turn. But the tech that will solve all commerce problems is pottery. So the question is: Does fishing speed up pottery? If going Ag -> fish -> BW -> TW -> Pottery it might, but it will not if delaying BW.

 

[jorissimo]

I don't think we need spoilers because this is just the start. It's indeed a tricky start with 99 problems but commerce ain't one of them with financial coast and a lake. Hard to go broke here since you only need fishing to unlock all of that commerce. Good luck!

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler :

One thing to check out first: Does the corn have fresh water? I think not, but better double check. If it has it might be a good idea to stay closer to this lake.

I would suggest to send the settler to the PH 1N2W. Granted, that looses fresh water, but with being expansive this has less of an impact.

It also picks up more land tiles, but looses the two BFC tiles without forests that might contain resources, but at best that is copper or horses, so not that helpful here.

Regarding the starting BFC, there might also be seafood 2N1E and I feel SIP might orphan some seafood in the east.

I think you considered settling the PH 3S? (hoping for seafood? I do not think 1N2W has coast) This is a bad idea for multiple reasons, first you loose the food you know about, second you go into the desert, third it has no visible food, and the warrior can even get all relevant information for 3S.

Re: commerce.

Fishing pays for itself in about 25 turns (3 /turn) at the cost of 1 /turn. But the tech that will solve all commerce problems is pottery. So the question is: Does fishing speed up pottery? If going Ag -> fish -> BW -> TW -> Pottery it might, but it will not if delaying BW.

Spoiler Turn 1 :

Moved settler to PH 1N2W and found crabs! So I take it AG>Fish then the question is BW first or TW>Pottery then BW?

 

[jorissimo]

Spoiler Turn 1 :

Moved settler to PH 1N2W and found crabs! So I take it AG>Fish then the question is BW first or TW>Pottery then BW?
View attachment 732927

Spoiler :

Not an expert but I think I would let it depend on where your second city will go. If it can be connected by coast pre-sailing you don't need the wheel that early. Fishing will give you commerce. I feel like Pottery is overall not a huge priority because you have no rivers and again the lake and crab tiles provide commerce.

 

[a pen-dragon]

About cottages in general. Not having rivers is not a criterion to apply if deciding when to go for pottery. If you want to build a significant amount of cottages (maybe due to having lots of rivers but there are other reasons) it always is better to begin earlier, river or no river.

Spoiler game specifics :

That does not look as bleak as T0.

Here BW before Pottery would be the natural move to due ample food to whip and a few forests to chop. Cottages can be delayed a bit, but should come immediately after.

@jorissimo the goal is to get pottery, not the wheel, ofc pottery requires TW, but that is only a waypoint. Also keep in mind that Pacal is expansive, meaning cheap granaries and financial, meaning better cottages, making pottery even more powerful. The only reason to delay pottery more than after BW would be if barbs are troublesome and there is no copper, meaning hunting for holkans.

 

[chinemol]

looking at the landmass, it seems easy to be boxed in. I'd say agg, BW. then again, turn 6 borders pop and there will be a little more clarity

 

[CGQ]

About cottages in general. Not having rivers is not a criterion to apply if deciding when to go for pottery. If you want to build a significant amount of cottages (maybe due to having lots of rivers but there are other reasons) it always is better to begin earlier, river or no river.

Spoiler game specifics :

That does not look as bleak as T0.

Here BW before Pottery would be the natural move to due ample food to whip and a few forests to chop. Cottages can be delayed a bit, but should come immediately after.

@jorissimo the goal is to get pottery, not the wheel, ofc pottery requires TW, but that is only a waypoint. Also keep in mind that Pacal is expansive, meaning cheap granaries and financial, meaning better cottages, making pottery even more powerful. The only reason to delay pottery more than after BW would be if barbs are troublesome and there is no copper, meaning hunting for holkans.

Spoiler Turn 11 :

Scouted around a bit and I see more corn as well as pigs. AG just arrived at this turn so Fishing then BW? Do I build warrior then WB?

 

[jorissimo]

@a pen-dragon

Spoiler :

My point was more in relation to OP considering going Pottery before BW. Like you, I don't think that makes a lot of sense here. I didn't mean delaying Pottery for a long time after BW. For me, connecting the second city is a reason to go early Wheel if no river or coast. Super early Pottery can make sense with floodplains and the right starting techs.

 

[chinemol]

Many better players than me, you CGQ included. Gonna say it anyway:

BW first is a safe choice for this "step by safe step play". If no copper, hunting and secure the land with holkans, then expand and limp to the fishing, pottery line

Honestly though, I'd gamble: go fishing first, get that crab online and settle 3 east of capital and have an insta conection city with food to grow and coast to get commerce. Not the best, but early game is kinda safe, shares the extra food and doesn't stall your research, nor forces you have to tech AH

 

[CGQ]

Many better players than me, you CGQ included. Gonna say it anyway:

BW first is a safe choice for this "step by safe step play". If no copper, hunting and secure the land with holkans, then expand and limp to the fishing, pottery line

Honestly though, I'd gamble: go fishing first, get that crab online and settle 3 east of capital and have an insta conection city with food to grow and coast to get commerce. Not the best, but early game is kinda safe, shares the extra food and doesn't stall your research, nor forces you have to tech AH

Spoiler Turn 21 :

Went Fishing then BW. Growing to size 4 into corn, lake tile and crabs while researching BW. Should I work one of the plain-forest tiles to speed up WB?
Also went warrior after worker and used him to scout East and found pigs....

And fish!

 

[jorissimo]

@CGQ

Spoiler :

I would settle west just below the corn and then you get the pig on t50. With all of that food you could whip a size 6 settler in Mutal. Not sure if any of the suggested spots would be connected though, because the water tiles won't be fully covered in culture. Also, t21 without meeting anyone suggests iso. Maybe GLH could be worth it? It would mess up your GP pool though.

 

[soundjata]

going forward (my 2 liner)

Spoiler :

Rush HR imo (before writing, before pottery maybe)
Work coastal tiles. Dont settle too many cities. What is south ?

 

[CGQ]

@CGQ

Spoiler :

I would settle west just below the corn and then you get the pig on t50. With all of that food you could whip a size 6 settler in Mutal. Not sure if any of the suggested spots would be connected though, because the water tiles won't be fully covered in culture. Also, t21 without meeting anyone suggests iso. Maybe GLH could be worth it? It would mess up your GP pool though.

Spoiler Turn 22 :

Had to replay the last 11 turns since I forgot to save lol. I worked the wine two turns while worker improved first corn to get fishing a turn earlier. Warrior came out a turn later but that's fine for earlier WB. The big issue I have now is...

What to do with worker? I can't chop, can't build cottage bc no pottery, can't build roads, no hills to mine, etc.

 

[jorissimo]

Spoiler Turn 22 :

Had to replay the last 11 turns since I forgot to save lol. I worked the wine two turns while worker improved first corn to get fishing a turn earlier. Warrior came out a turn later but that's fine for earlier WB. The big issue I have now is...

What to do with worker? I can't chop, can't build cottage bc no pottery, can't build roads, no hills to mine, etc.
View attachment 733056

Spoiler :

Farm the wine and/or the grassland tile next to it.

 

[pmarc]

Spoiler :

Yes, just farm the lakeside grass, you can eventually share that food with a city to the east.

But also, I think that illustrates why you generally want BW before Fishing.

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler :

Yes, just farm the lakeside grass, you can eventually share that food with a city to the east.

But also, I think that illustrates why you generally want BW before Fishing.

Spoiler Replayed to Turn 27 :

Went back and did BW first. BW was too far and workers had nothing to do. I think this makes more sense. Got BW on turn 27. Fishing next then TW>Pottery or straight to Monarchy?
That being said, 1st City will be settled likely 3E capital as @chinemol suggested. Love the idea of sharing all that extra food with that low happy cap, plus the extra 2 from coastal connection will really help us here!

I farmed the wine first for that little bit of commerce to save an extra turn for fishing. I figure I can start 1st settler at size 4 then chop/whip it? Maybe size 6 whip for 2nd settler once crabs online? The next question is when to build WB? Do I whip that? WB first then 2nd worker or 2nd worker first?

Did more aggressive scouting this time around and found more food/rivers in the south! Also got my first warrior (2S pigs) woodsman I.

 

[chinemol]

there's couple ways ahead, depending on weather or not to go for TGL. It's unfair to make that decission this early, but...

If you go for TGL, city goes for copper, with copper and road taking priority. It will be a financial drag for a while, but with copper it can pump stuff. The wheel takes priority over fishing, don't tech hunting. Then yes: fish, sailing, masonry. Mutal can maybe get a second settler out to go 3 east, though worker would be my priority. It depends on what the new city can build. Going straight for it, it would be likely to get it. Barring that, a slow but secure start thanks to axes.

If you don't, you get more choices. Wouldn't do this, but despite the copper, having holkans one cheap tech away is tempting and doesn't require teching the wheel. Allows you techwise to go the way you want to. Even funding judaism would be open, tough again, not my choice path