PAE VI

[madboy77]

yes, I am interested in your offer. I could read that you know something more about the Hitti. What do you think of following three buildings to get included:
city archive (req: cities): I can allow them the tech cuniform, so they can build the archive
dam -> they can build irrigation canals and stone basin. I don't know if it's balanced if I give them a third building for health: but I would do. the Romans and Greeks also have lots of health buildings later on
underground cities? -> I just read of Derinkuyu. how is this called best? what bonus? only defence?

Pls, allow me some time, I would have to search thru some data and studies. You also mentioned that you need historical sources - how deeply historical do you need? - modern day researchers (acclaimed or at least formally educated writers/historians) or ancient sources? I'm not sure if I can get at least 2 of either... My knowledge (partly fascination) comes from 20th century studies on the Hittites, and I read this quite a few years ago.

Again, let me do some re-research and I'll get back to you, would that be fair?

BTW, iirc Derinkuyu is surely an Anatolian achievement/structure but post-Hittite, however the first ones came from ~4th century CE so still falls into late game.

 

[pie_at]

Yes, of course
I for myself proof every fact at least twice. eg if you tell me to include an odeon, I will also search for its historical accuracy.

but please also think of playability and necessary in-game! I don't want to add a bakery and things like that that are status quo of a city.

and please think of the balance a bit! if you give a CIV a strong building, are there any comparable buildings of other CIVs?

 

[madboy77]

No problem, I will just share my idea (and changes in files, if you want?) and you will decide if you want it in your mod.

 

[pie_at]

Yeah, do it.
But please don't be disappointed if I reject ideas. I am very, very, very severe

 

[madboy77]

Ok, here are my initial thoughts:

The only reason I had to introduce new buildings for the Hittites was to give them credit for their achievements and commemorate them in game, historical and fun.
If this motivation is accepted, there is room for discussion. Present day statistics is this (build 6.5.1):
a) of 33 nations 7 have less then 5 special buildings
b) least of all have the Hittites (2), Berbers 4, Huns 4, Ilyrians 4, Libyans 3, Parthians 3, Scythians 4.
c) we might as well keep it as is, the Hittites simply have the fewest buildings - end of story. If not, things that could be credited as worthy achievements are:
- three-man chariot (already there)
- sewage system (basin is there, plus 3 of 6 Hittite leaders have Expansive trait)
- archives (the Hittites were a bit crazy about writing things, I would suggest City Archives, req. City, bonus Culture+Science)
- "Undercity" or Rockcity- defense bonus, maybe production bonus (for uninterrupted operation under siege, additional living/economic area?)
- code of ethics (unlike many nations the Hittites preferred contribution for offense instead of retribution/punishment) - this is hard to implement. Perhaps a monument with written law, Culture bonus).
- Hettite iron forge - they were not the first to smelt iron, but they surely made it popular. I can imagine a Hittite Forge, prod. bonus +35% (40%) with Iron, as opposed to the regular +25% for all.

Historically, all above didn't save them from perishing Maybe they can survive now in game...

So much for now. If you like any of these, please tell

 

[pie_at]

ok , let me see...

a) only 7? I am happy about this, because lots of implemented nations are either nomads or warbands
b) that's ok. having special buildings doesn't mean to be an upper class civ. if they can build all other buildings means, that they had everything in their life but you also should have in mind, that the Hittites instead of all other civs you mentioned (Berbers, Illyrians, Scythians=Huns and Parthians) disappeared from mankind about 1170 BC. isn't that a contradiction in term if you want them to survive 1200 BC although they didn't?
c) let us see...
- three man chariot: clear
- sewage system: they can build a sewage system called sewers, can't they? sewers is a sewage system. And the Hittites were not the only one who had sewage systems!
- archives: ok, why not. I just read about the cuniform stuff in Hittites Empire and that they stored those plates in the palace archives. perhaps in other archives too... I don't know. But that's ok. I'll enable the city archives for Hittites.
- Underground city: this is something special.. 20.000 people possible! I'll add that for sure. but this is only a protection thing. I can't imagine this could be a production or even health bonus for that it is difficult to bring goods into it and such catacombs aren't really helpful in arising of diseases.
- Code of ethic: punishment of citizens or law statutes, having police men for law & order etc... are not part of the game Civilization. therefor you can build a court house. Corruption was implemented in Civ III but not in Civ IV anymore.
- Hettite iron forge: only because Hittites were one of the first fighting with iron weapons (eg against the Egypts in Kadesh) doesn't mean they have special iron forges or better iron forges as eg celts, germans.

 

[Manarch]

That’s nice of you Brettschmitt, I was actually beginning to contemplate the possibility of undertaking a semblance of research to find the adequate parameters location.
I appreciate the shortcut and will take a look momentarily.

I also just had a thought on your exchange about hittites code of ethic; purely in terms of gameplay, it could translate to a slight or slighter bonus multiplier to great people’s generation or toward great philosophers, linked to a building as Madboy suggested.

 

[pie_at]

hm... about the code of ethic: is it really something for Hittites only? what about Sumerians, Babylonians, Egyptians... every high culture had its code of laws.
If I give Hitti such a building, I must give every CIV such a building. so, whats special then? all others after those high cultues had also their code of laws.. Greek City states, Rome... but even later. So, if I add eg a national wonder, then I have to do it for every civ but in different time lines. and thats bad for just one tech tree.

 

[madboy77]

hm... about the code of ethic: is it really something for Hittites only? what about Sumerians, Babylonians, Egyptians... every high culture had its code of laws.
If I give Hitti such a building, I must give every CIV such a building. so, whats special then? all others after those high cultues had also their code of laws.. Greek City states, Rome... but even later. So, if I add eg a national wonder, then I have to do it for every civ but in different time lines. and thats bad for just one tech tree.

It's not about code of law - it's about Ethics - something that represents a morality system, not a law&order rules. And yes, it was exceptional for the Hittites, like I mentioned before. You can compare it to an early civil law regarding liabilities. In case of Hittites compensation instead of retribution. At THAT time it was quite civilized - hence the idea.

On other matters (v 6.5.1.):
- the Trade mission/Help production by a horse has a very long animation (or some kind of delay, ~3 or 4 seconds) as opposed to e.g. allocating a slave which is very quick. Can this be changed/streamlined ?
- grapes can be planted on flatlands too, however the description says "hills only".
- playing on Monarch difficulty - how can I improve my relations with other civs? they are all reluctant and fickle and I can't trade with anyone except my vassals (which come later)... Even religions don't seem to seep thru very easily - would they be very beneficial?
- also, how the heck should I make money early on? no trade, no horse missions, no plundering, no spies available.. Cottage only ?

thx

 

[pie_at]

Ethics: Ah, ok... I am sure, this ethic stuff is because they declared Hattusa to capital and all cities around were declared to vassal cities... the Hittite culture was a mixture of lots cultures there, I recherched. But it's ok, I'll add a national wonder for them, so called: Ethic codex? How shall I call this national wonder for them?

- horse animation: ok, I'll have a look
- grapes: oh, it should be able on flat lands too, I'll change the description
- yes, it is not easy and it shouldn't be. just concentrate on one or two neighbours. the easiest way to get Open Borders if you declare war on a neighbour's enemy. then you are able to trade with him/her.
- early money? you mean the era when goods or shells were used for trade? this is intended that currency is a great invention! until this fact it is almost impossible to create an empire. in earliest ages food was the prio thing. you should concentrade on hunters and you should only improve land plots the city needs!
in the beginning you can low your science rate until 50%. so go from 90% to 80%, I often have 75% and so on. then you should get the money you really need.
found your cities next to rivers or coasts. that also brings commerce. and look for luxury goods. found your cities there! later on you have time and money enough to found cities in normal land squares between such profitable cities.

 

[madboy77]

Ethics: Ah, ok... I am sure, this ethic stuff is because they declared Hattusa to capital and all cities around were declared to vassal cities... the Hittite culture was a mixture of lots cultures there, I recherched. But it's ok, I'll add a national wonder for them, so called: Ethic codex? How shall I call this national wonder for them?

- well, over time they did develop such codex, but it would be excessive to expect it to be similar to Christianity How to call it? Hmm, maybe Hattusa Codex?
Again, you don't have to add this, but it would be quite Hittite-like. This plus City Archives and the "Undercity" makes this civilization more complete and historically justified. Maybe the underground city should be buildable only if the town is on hills?

As for the money, nomadic civs (with War camp) have it easier, every few turns the unit can be sold to mercs

 

[madboy77]

Hi guys,

some ideas came to me:
- what if I could give any my city to any vassal or even any player ?
- how about a spy mission "Steal distributable goods" ?
- when a vassal requests a technology - the level of current relations should be displayed in the request window.

Are these doable ?
m.

 

[pie_at]

some ideas came to me:
- what if I could give any my city to any vassal or even any player ?
-> this is already implemented. select a unit in your capital, you'll find a button for this (only for vassals)

- how about a spy mission "Steal distributable goods" ?
-> I think of it. but I'd have to do this for the AI too.... possible, but more work.

- when a vassal requests a technology - the level of current relations should be displayed in the request window.
-> easy

 

[madboy77]

Thank you for the above !

There are some things I can do in a provincial city when talking the Governor: levy taxes, influence and sth else. Could you please explain those? I can't find any info on that...
Also, I noticed it's possible to have more than 3 national units (e.g. Vandal Chiefs). Is the description off, or there's some different mechanic for this?

 

[brettschmitt]

I noticed it's possible to have more than 3 national units (e.g. Vandal Chiefs). Is the description off, or there's some different mechanic for this?

You can BUILD only three of them. Upgrades from other units are unlimited... they need a certain level though.

 

[pie_at]

Provincial governors demand gold sometimes. If you have no money, you can pay for his "happiness" with those influencal things (eg. start a festival in the city) later.
Other possibility: your cities gets unhappy, you can change happiness with such payments to prevent from civil war. this is an advantage of provincial cities.
Or you use that, when setting your science taxes under the value of 50%. each additional ignores 5% taxes lower than 50%.