PAE VI

[pie_at]

PAE VI beta patch 2 is up (see first page) and waits for your review.
(I hope, there is no missing file. I already prepared the Arts folder for the full version and packed some stuff there)

 

[cmakk1012]

Wonderful! Haven’t gotten to check it yet, so maybe this has already been fixed, but playing as a Greek civ the Tech tree’s got a mistake, I think. Servian reform blocks off Defense Engineering and everything after that, even though it seems like the Greeks should be able to research it—that unlocks Cretan Archers, for instance! Any way to change the tree so Servian reforms aren’t blocking off so many other techs?

EDIT: never mind, my mistake! I can still research Defense Engineering—it’s just a graphical error in the Science menu

 

[rjsalpha]

Thanks pie. I think I have uploaded but is there an easy way I can tell that I'm actually playing on the beta patch??

 

[tot]

Thanks pie. I think I have uploaded but is there an easy way I can tell that I'm actually playing on the beta patch??

Does the first chariot unit have 6 strength? If it does then you have patched correctly. The old version the chariot has 5 strength.

@pie_at I have noticed that floodplains alone is not enough to allow grains to spread. For example Barley cannot be spread on a grassland + floodplain tile, but can be spread on a desert + floodplain tile. Its conditions state 'Steppe or flood plains'.

I will run an AI game later and update if the archer spam has been fixed.

 

[brettschmitt]

My new Eurasia XL map is out now, too.

Download here or wait for the final PAE VI
https://www.civforum.de/showthread....brettschmitt&p=8167927&viewfull=1#post8167927

PREVIEW TEXT:
A huge Eurasia map (130x70 tiles). 30 Civs. Fixed starting spots.

For a comfortable and quiet game you should take Saba or the Britones. If you want a real challenge, maybe you could take the Illyrians. Wars guaranteed!
Also a quite difficult experience might be the different Germanic Tribes, starting in the deep northern forests.
And then the Celts. They're living between Germania and Rome, so will have an exiting life, too.

Naturally, all well known ancient civilizations are playable: Romans, Greek, Macedonia, Egypt, Carthage, Persia etc.

And this is the first map that really covers ALL of the PAE universe. So you can sail around Ireland up to Norway, as you can around Arabia all the way to India.

Have fun!
by brettschmitt

 

[mikmac]

@brettschmitt: Looking good. All the best features from the previous map, but turn times look promising. I shall play as Romans and try to add Etruscans as a challenge!

 

[pie_at]

@pie_at I have noticed that floodplains alone is not enough to allow grains to spread. For example Barley cannot be spread on a grassland + floodplain tile, but can be spread on a desert + floodplain tile. Its conditions state 'Steppe or flood plains'.

I will run an AI game later and update if the archer spam has been fixed.

Flood plains: hm... normally flood plains appear on desert plots. this could be a mistake in scenarios. Just imagine, grass and flood is more like a swamp... too wet for barley. On random maps grass and flood plains can't be created.

Archer spam: yes, please.

 

[pie_at]

Thanks pie. I think I have uploaded but is there an easy way I can tell that I'm actually playing on the beta patch??

and this patch differs to the first patch on: Rowing I-V instead of Navigation I-V

 

[brettschmitt]

@brettschmitt: Looking good. All the best features from the previous map, but turn times look promising. I shall play as Romans and try to add Etruscans as a challenge!

Cool!
The Romans as AI have never really ruled the world in my test games... would be nice to hear some feedback of your Roman Conquest

 

[mikmac]

Screenshot moment; Romulus doing some RnR in Ravenna after a raid on the Etruscans.

I added the Etruscans because its a classic conflict, and also cause Im messing around to see how my laptop will handle the map. I declared war on first contact and have been at it since!
The Cherusci just declared on me so Im waiting for an incursion anytime now. The Illyrians declared on the Etruscans and I then backstabbed them in the colonisation of southern Italy. Maybe a bit ill advised, but then again I need control of the trade routes to Greece, whom I have open borders to. Besides, Im playing @Noble so maybe I can afford to goof up a bit.

Turn times are great, 25s@turn 250 is perfectly reasonable for a low end laptop like mine (7yrs?). Excellent work!

 

[tot]

Flood plains: hm... normally flood plains appear on desert plots. this could be a mistake in scenarios. Just imagine, grass and flood is more like a swamp... too wet for barley. On random maps grass and flood plains can't be created.

Archer spam: yes, please.

On my map I am using grassland+floodplain to simulate the Nile river valley, which was much more agriculturally rich than a desert+floodplain tile would be. On the scale of my map I would need 2 tile wide floodplains in places which also has no visual indication without yields on. I was thinking that because grassland floodplains does not appear in random maps, what is problem with allowing barley to grow on these tiles? Unless a map maker makes use of them the player will never know. Currently almost all other grains and livestock can spread to a grassland+floodplain tile.

 

[pie_at]

why don't you put swamp to the nil delta?
when you say "currently all other grains can spread to a grassland" then use this info and spread another grain into the marshy nil delta instead of barley.
I like the fact that not all types of grain can be spread everywhere. there are some differences (ground, climate, dryness, fresh water).

 

[tot]

why don't you put swamp to the nil delta?

I believe only rice can spread to swamp? This limits this as a possibility immensely.
Also the Nile delta was the most important agricultural region of the Mediterranean, swamp does not represent that at all in the game as the only improvement is turbaries, which do not improve the food yields.

I like the fact that not all types of grain can be spread everywhere. there are some differences (ground, climate, dryness, fresh water).

I agree, I am pointing out that:
1. Egypt has a history of growing barley
2. The Nile valley flooded regularly (floodplain) and was agriculturally rich (grassland)

Therefor I think that barley should be growable on grassland-floodplains.
I should also point out that of all the grains in game, barley was one of the most widespread, growing from Ireland to Tibet. I do like the idea that certain climates are better suited or can exclusively host certain food sources, I just wonder if this is the correct food source and terrain pairing.

On this topic, perhaps there are too few 'northern' food sources?

• Cabbage
• Onion
• Carrots
• Peas
• Wild Boar
• Bison
• Chickens
• Rabbits/Hares

The addition of some of these would allow Europe to have different food sources while not stepping on the toes of the grains that were staples in the fertile crescent.

 

[brettschmitt]

Besides, Im playing @Noble so maybe I can afford to goof up a bit.
Turn times are great, 25s@turn 250 is perfectly reasonable for a low end laptop like mine (7yrs?). Excellent work!

Nice screen! And good to hear that turn times are playable even on your oldtimer

And yes, on Noble you should be able to destroy everyone...

 

[pie_at]

tot: I'd say the nil delta at those times was a marsh. Look at the ancient cities there. Do you find any (big) city in the nil delta about 1200 BC? No. They are all around. (ah, I hope we talk about the Nil delta from Giseh on). Tanis was on the right border at 1200 BC.
Alexandria (which was found very, very late) is located in the upper left corner. all other were just small villages. later they got more in Arabian times.
So I am not sure about the agriculture there 3000 BC. I know there very villages, even the capital of the saitic city state. But, I can't find something about the grain types there. I'd say, use the wet place for pigs, cows, and other grain types. There is space enough for your barley in the southern region. Be happy, that you use this space for pigs. otherwise you can't spread them in upper egypt.

About the other wealth resources: I got enough of them. It is not realistic to have big wealth cities, so I'd prefer to to decrease wealth bonuses instead of adding more of them. northern people have the possibility to get a druid with his herbary.

and they got pigs, cows, sheep, deer, seals,... and wealthy forests

 

[pie_at]

I'll try to come to an end with the PAE VI beta. My plan is the full version until end of may. I hope, it's possible for me. And then we can start a new PAE era with lots of new features and fun!

 

[mikmac]

@PiE: Great news! Do you reckon the final version will be a savegame breaker? If so I shall wait before starting a major new game.
@brettschmitt: Will you be editing your map or can I go all in on this version?

 

[tot]

tot: I'd say the nil delta at those times was a marsh. Look at the ancient cities there. Do you find any (big) city in the nil delta about 1200 BC? No. They are all around. (ah, I hope we talk about the Nil delta from Giseh on). Tanis was on the right border at 1200 BC.

However the timeline of this mod does not stop at 1200BC. Is it possible to turn swamp into productive grassland? Because by the time of the Greeks and Romans, the Nile delta was very rich. The only way I have found to simulate this is to put jungle on top of the grassland to slow down development, ideally though there should be other ways to improve this terrain.

ot: I'd say the nil delta at those times was a marsh.

I thought this as well, however after a bit of googling I found this from (https://www.ancient.eu/article/997/ancient-egyptian-agriculture/).

Egyptologist Barbara Watterson notes how the Delta Region of Lower Egypt was far more fertile than the fields of Upper Egypt toward the south and so "the Upper Egyptian farmer had to be inventive and, at an early date, learned to cooperate with his neighbours in harnessing the river water through the building of irrigation canals and drainage ditches"

This sounds to me like it was in fact easier to do agriculture in the delta. This makes sense to me as the Nile delta by definition was self irrigating, it is where the water splits into many different branches that could be easily harnessed for agriculture. On the other hand during the Nile's course silt will build up on its banks and in irrigation channels, requiring additional work to maintain them.
Another quick google shows that Barbara Watterson does seem to have a few books about egypt: (https://www.google.ca/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=inauthor:"Barbara+Watterson")

About the other wealth resources: I got enough of them. It is not realistic to have big wealth cities, so I'd prefer to to decrease wealth bonuses instead of adding more of them. northern people have the possibility to get a druid with his herbary

I meant these resources to be food resources and to replace things like barley and pigs in Europe. If they use the same limit per city as other food resources I do not see how they would make for bigger cities unless you gave them higher food output. Why would a city with 2 barley need to be smaller than a city with 2 onions? I would think the ease of harvesting grains over vegetables would keep grains a better food source; and thus limit the population of northern cities until they could import higher quality food resources. This seems to be more realistic, not less.

 

[pie_at]

@PiE: Great news! Do you reckon the final version will be a savegame breaker? If so I shall wait before starting a major new game.
@brettschmitt: Will you be editing your map or can I go all in on this version?

Yes, indeed, it's not save compatible. cause I added some cities in the civilization.xml and I couldn't load my latest save. ;(

However the timeline of this mod does not stop at 1200BC. Is it possible to turn swamp into productive grassland? Because by the time of the Greeks and Romans, the Nile delta was very rich. The only way I have found to simulate this is to put jungle on top of the grassland to slow down development, ideally though there should be other ways to improve this terrain.

I thought this as well, however after a bit of googling I found this from (https://www.ancient.eu/article/997/ancient-egyptian-agriculture/).

Yes, you can drain swamps in PAE. (later on, eg. with sewerage and levees)

This sounds to me like it was in fact easier to do agriculture in the delta. This makes sense to me as the Nile delta by definition was self irrigating, it is where the water splits into many different branches that could be easily harnessed for agriculture. On the other hand during the Nile's course silt will build up on its banks and in irrigation channels, requiring additional work to maintain them.
Another quick google shows that Barbara Watterson does seem to have a few books about egypt: (https://www.google.ca/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=inauthor:"Barbara+Watterson")

all of the text speak from the border of the delta. As I thought of. I can't imagine it makes sense to work in the middle of the delta when a big flood destroys all surounding area. at the border of the flood, canals and buildings are easier to protect from those water-dirt-masses twice a year.

I meant these resources to be food resources and to replace things like barley and pigs in Europe. If they use the same limit per city as other food resources I do not see how they would make for bigger cities unless you gave them higher food output. Why would a city with 2 barley need to be smaller than a city with 2 onions? I would think the ease of harvesting grains over vegetables would keep grains a better food source; and thus limit the population of northern cities until they could import higher quality food resources. This seems to be more realistic, not less.

that's true, it makes no difference if you spread grain or onion. BUT it makes a big difference if you gain +1 wealth for every kind of cultivation bonus. so you would be able to get 20+ pop cities without illness. that's unrealistic. that's why I changed the +1 wealth for every type of grain and only give it to the granary. so I could decrease grain bonus from +5 to only +1. there are so many things (bonuses and buildings) that increase the wealth of your cities.

 

[brettschmitt]

@brettschmitt: Will you be editing your map or can I go all in on this version?

There will be some minimal changes. But nothing game changing. So you can take this version as well...
And then in the final PAE VI it will be included.