Paladins are not Melee Units

[WarKirby]

My cousin is playing empyrean Kurio in a hotseat game with me. I went out of my way to make the Master smith, so we could have nice melee units.

But it seems we can't buy the special equipment promos for the Paladin unit. It's a unit that wears heavy armor, and visibly carries a sword. I really think it doesn't make sense that they can't have Fine Steel weaponry, or especially Blessed Armor.

Why aren't Paladins melee units? It's easy to see why they deserve the disciple category to some degree, but I think melee units are far closer a description of what they are. Especially considering the Evil equivilant, eidolons, are melee units, paladins are at a disadvantage because eidolons can use the fancy equipment.

 

[xienwolf]

Using the <PromotionAllows> block in Paladin Unitinfos could allow us to keep them as Disciple, but have access to Gear

While thinking about odd promotions, we can also use <PromotionDenies> to block Kraken from all the innappropriate-for-naval promotions they can get now

 

[Bitwise]

I like Paladins as Disciple units because I can replace them out of my altar city, but it would be cool if they could get the armor promos.

 

[VSPavlov]

I like Paladins as Disciple units because I can replace them out of my altar city, but it would be cool if they could get the armor promos.

I second that!

 

[WarKirby]

Using the <PromotionAllows> block in Paladin Unitinfos could allow us to keep them as Disciple, but have access to Gear

While thinking about odd promotions, we can also use <PromotionDenies> to block Kraken from all the innappropriate-for-naval promotions they can get now

This sounds like a good idean, but I'm not certain

Being disciple units does make sense in many ways, and is useful for benefitting from the aspiritual trait, and altars, but at the same time, they are still a group of armored soldiers, who fight mostly in direct hand to hand combat,

Making them able to get the equipment promos is a great idea, but there are other concerns, too.

I think Shock should be effective against them, for example. I think it would also make sense for them to gain passive xp from a training yard, like any other melee unit.

Is it possible to give a unit two unitcombats? they really fit Melee and Disciple both fairly well. this could also make them vulnerable to both shock and scourge, which I don't think is really such a bad thing.

 

[Tarquelne]

First - Eidolons are not Melee Units.
They're Disciple units, too.

Second - If anything is done I think it'd be best to just add a few weapon and armor promotions made especially for Paladins.

Third...

Making them able to get the equipment promos is a great idea, but there are other concerns, too.

I think Shock should be effective against them, for example. I think it would also make sense for them to gain passive xp from a training yard, like any other melee unit.

Each Paladin unit may represent a few warriors who fight primarily via spiritual means, wielding the blessed weapons and plate armor that their stats assume them to possess. Given their stats, in fact, I'd say that's a lot more likely than them being like "any other melee unit".

"Cool" really should be the operative word here. If it's cool to give Paladins access to melee equipment, and it's not unbalancing, then they should get the promotions. If it's cool to re-cast them as both Disciple and Melee then maybe we should do that. But, for 'realism' there's no need. It's a fantasy game, and there could easily be more differences than similarities between two guys who fight using swords while wearing heavy armor.

 

[vivictius]

I agree, actually I posted on something similar to this earlier, it is the same with crusaders and paramanders not getting the gear.

 

[Anathema]

Point 1: Paladins/eidolons are carefully balanced against Phalanxes/immortals, just like crusaders/stygian guards/etc are equivalent to champions, and priests/drown/etc equivalent to axemen. By this I mean whichever tech path you choose, you get a unit with roughly similar strength, making both tech options viable. If it's not considered overpowered to give a melee unit +1 or +2 strength from your master smith, what's wrong with giving his disciple counterpart the same thing? In fact it creates imbalance if you don't give disciple units something similar to what their melee/archer/horseman counterparts can get from the appropriate master building.

Point 2: Unless you guys have changed it in the latest patch, paladins/eidolons/other units you may not expect already can get the melee equipment upgrades, you just need to build a melee unit, equip him at the smith, then promote him to paladin or whatever you prefer. Which makes it silly that you can't directly give the equipment upgrade to the paladin, and creates needless micromanagement. The equipment should either be giveable to newly built paladins, or preferably it should be removed when a unit upgrades to paladin (again apologies if you guys already fixed this, I haven't played the latest patch).

Point 3: If you 'fix' disciple units so they can't get equipment by upgrading from melee units, then you really really need to find a way to give disciple units some equivalent upgrade options to keep them balanced with the other tech paths. My crazy idea? Let them get some kind of equipment-style upgrade from a holy city with the appropriate shrine, which makes it about as difficult to get as the master building upgrades, without needing to add in a whole new building just for disciple units. If you want to get fancy it could even be a different upgrade based on which holy city you have, kinda like the cursed weapons and blessed armor.

 

[xienwolf]

Anything which you cannot purchase with a unit, but CAN gain by upgrading from some other unit which CAN purchase it needs to be reported so we can mark it <bValidate> which exists precisely to fix that situation. But accounting for all possible upgrade paths can be pretty tricky, so things get missed


And ideally the "balance factor" to give disciples an equivalent boost to their melee counterparts who now have toys to play with would be along completely different lines (like magical augmentation for cities or something). Kael's "Balance without paralleling" paradigm.

 

[Tarquelne]

If Equipment is something that significantly throws off the balance between whole unitcombats then Equipment likely needs a nerf. Especially if Equipment is seen as something picked up as a matter of course - ie, not via substantial effort/sacrifice. (Though the frequency with which I see magic-using units dominating games, or just Altared-up Disciples, made me think the "mundanes" could use some attention without needing to give Arcane/Disciple units further toys.)

<bValidate>

Does that apply to Warriors with Woodsman upgraded to Archers? (Re: The Lj. Archers thread.)

 

[xienwolf]

I would imagine so, but as always, I attempt to stay out of balance decisions, just point to the toys available and give some ideas on how to use them

 

[WarKirby]

Getting the equipment IS a significant amount of sacrifice. I beelined for construction, avoided building non engineering wonders, etc, to get my great engineer.

Once I have the buildings, then yes, the equipment is standard issue. I build a master smith anywhere that's reasonably going to be creating units, and I lower my research a bit, to have a sizeable income to cover the costs of equipping them, so there's sacrifice there too.

The equipment is fairly powerful. The fine weaponry is a 20% strength bonus, which can do a fair bit to tip the odds. Blessed armor is especially great, it's essentially part of the effect of march. Not the healing while moving part, but vastly increased heal rates when you stop to rest.

It's undeniable that this equipment is powerful. I think that's a good thing. Nerfing it would make it just not worth the sacrifice it takes to get it.


Paladins, Crusders, Eidolons, Sphener and Mardero should all be able to get the special melee equipment, I think, If they can't already. I suppose allowing them this while keeping them disciple units is a reasonable suggestion. I still think they'd all fit better as melee units though, but meh..

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I have to argue against allowing them access to these promotions... As disciple units, they are able to get quite a bit of free xp from the Altars. Having both the free xp and the master equipment is too much, and it should be kept to one or the other.

 

[Iceciro]

I side with the "it would be cool" argument. But I think there's a lot of merit to making them Melee units, too. Partly because promotions like Shock and all would work better as a counter to them - I imagine in some way they are divinely-buffed but they probabaly still fight closer to say, a squad of swordsmen than a Priest of Leaves.

 

[WarKirby]

Personally, I have to argue against allowing them access to these promotions... As disciple units, they are able to get quite a bit of free xp from the Altars. Having both the free xp and the master equipment is too much, and it should be kept to one or the other.

And melee units are able to get free xp from training yards.

Ok, it takes a few extra turns. But on the other hand, it can be built for 100 . The altars require multiple great prophets, and can still only be done in one city.

The most that the altars give is 10xp, is it not? That's the same amount the training yard takes you to.

I really don't think giving acess to these weapons would be unbalancing. A phalanx can use them, and benefit from the training yard. As can immortals.

Blessed Armor especially, is so overwhelmingly suitable for paladins lorewise, it seems silly that they can't have it. Likewise Cursed Weapons for eidolons

Also remember that paladins are endgame units. That's about the point in time where balance starts to go out of the window (Baron Duin, anyone?). I think for that level of units, arguments that things would be unbalancing hold a lot less weight than for earlier things.

 

[WarKirby]

Kael's "Balance without paralleling" paradigm.

I've never liked this philosophy. It's an argument used against making the malakim better in deserts, because the elves already have that for forests. Or an argument against adding more religion specific avatar units.

I Like parallels. Reusing a feature here or there doesn't make everything instantly tired and overdone. It seems like a philosophy that just creates needless developer work, for no real benefit.

And do remember of course, that FF isn't kael's mod. Do things your own way.

 

[Sephi]

holy shields that give a bonus against demons would be cool
and holy symbols that increase the convert chance or maybe allow paladins to destroy undead.

 

[vivictius]

Odds are you can not get both the equipment and the altars, one takes great engineers, the other great prophets, generally you have to focus on one or the other. The way it is right now, Paramanders are inferior to Soldiers of Kilmorph.

 

[Anathema]

The altars don't come even close to offsetting the master smith, imo.

-It takes several great people to get any significant bonus from the altars, as opposed to a single great engineer for the master smith (and granted that engineers are more difficult to get than other great people, but it's much easier to get a single engineer than 3 or 4 prophets).
-The altar xp bonus can be replaced by other sources. Free xp from civics and buildings makes it much less effective, if you're getting +10 free xp on every unit then a stage 3 altar won't get your disciple unit a single extra promotion over a melee unit. Melee units can also get that same xp bonus with training yards (albeit slowly), disciples can't. And last but not least, simply going out and killing things can get you that same xp - sure there's a chance of losing the unit, but remember your melee units have more base strength than disciple units thanks to their master smith equipment, making them much more likely to actually win some fights. Meanwhile your disciple units have no way of ever matching that master equipment bonus.
-Altar is only one city.. master smith is EVERY city.

I mean, I like the altars and I like disciple units and I do use them, but my master smith melee units are just plain better. Look at it this way, if you have the choice of building a 10 xp champion, giving him +2 strength and +20% strength, then upgrading him to a paladin - or building an 18xp paladin without the equipment bonuses (yay another 20% strength promotion?), which do you choose? Of course this 'bug' is going to get fixed, but while it exists it illustrates the problem perfectly. Master smith is just much much better than altar and throws off the balance.

Disclaimer: I don't think the master smith or any other master building should be nerfed, at all. Actually I'd vote for a slight buff to outfitter and rancher (haven't tried the archer one), but the smith is perfect right now. It's difficult to get, requiring a lot of sacrifice on the player's part, and the equipment is just awesome enough to make it worth it. I just think disciple units need some equivalent, and the altar is certainly not enough.

 

[Willgar]

Odds are you can not get both the equipment and the altars, one takes great engineers, the other great prophets, generally you have to focus on one or the other. The way it is right now, Paramanders are inferior to Soldiers of Kilmorph.

This is a very true. I often avoid fanatacism till the last possible moment to keep my Soldiers of Kilmorph. Never understood why Melee could upgrade to Disciple as a gameplay mechanic although i am not complianing