Petition to add Poland

[a4phantom]

Come on! I cannot see still any?
No other petitions, means no other needs.
One demand, so Poland should be added, right?

Assyria'd be a good civ, although we're already Chariot UU heavy. I certainly don't care enough to start a petition.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Come on! I cannot see still any?
No other petitions, means no other needs.
One demand, so Poland should be added, right?

The fact that Poland apparently has a political culture which makes some of its citizens think their country should be included in Civ does not constitute an irrrefutable argument for the inclusion of Poland.

 

[Vertico]

Assyria'd be a good civ, although we're already Chariot UU heavy. I certainly don't care enough to start a petition.

This is exactly my point.
If none is really interested to move a finger to start a petition for any of "those more important civilizations", why not to listen 1,4 thousand of people who cared and voted for adding Poland?!

 

[a4phantom]

This is exactly my point.
If none is really interested to move a finger to start a petition for any of "those more important civilizations", why not to listen 1,4 thousand of people who cared and voted for adding Poland?!

If they're adding civs according to mobilized constituency, then by all means they should add Poland. Assyria and Babylon do lack the internet-accessing population base to compete with you.

 

[burak]

The fact that Poland apparently has a political culture which makes some of its citizen think their country should be included in Civ does not constitute an irrrefutable argument for the inclusion of Poland.

Well, maybe this is the argument:

Doesn't a country that occupied much of central Europe for 300 years deserve to be in as much a Portugal or Netherlands?

 

[MoonBase]

Come on! I cannot see still any?
No other petitions, means no other needs.
One demand, so Poland should be added, right?

You logic is flawed, grasshopper.

 

[a4phantom]

Well, maybe this is the argument:

Doesn't a country that occupied much of central Europe for 300 years deserve to be in as much a Portugal or Netherlands?

Have you ever heard of Brazil?

 

[Ravo]

Well, maybe this is the argument:

Doesn't a country that occupied much of central Europe for 300 years deserve to be in as much a Portugal or Netherlands?

The Capital of Lithuania's Grand Duchy is not Wilno, it's Vilnius. Wilno is the Polish name of that city. Anyway, without union with Lithuania, Poland wouldn't be half as powerful back then. So that wouldn't be fair to include Poland alone - it should be added as Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.

 

[Sofista]

Dutch creating intercontinental trade?!?
On the invention of Capitalism: they just give liberty for the jews to make what they couldn't do in the Roman Catholic countries, such as Portugal and Spain (from where they were expelled in the 1490's).

Well, which would the other ones be? Jews weren't expelled from the Italian states - except the areas controlled by Spain after the time you mentioned - or France, for instance...

And well before they were expelled from the Iberian paeninsula, they had been expelled from England (XIII century).

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Well, maybe this is the argument:

Doesn't a country that occupied much of central Europe for 300 years deserve to be in as much a Portugal or Netherlands?

No. The Netherlands and Portugal had an impact on the world. Poland did not. I had some impact on eastern Europe for a limited period of time.

 

[Vertico]

No. The Netherlands and Portugal had an impact on the world. Poland did not. I had some impact on eastern Europe for a limited period of time.

I wonder what impact on the world had Korea, Mali, Zulu, Wikings and Inca for example. Portugal I agree, but Netherlands? Had only some impact on Western Europe and Indonesia and on discovering casette and CD

p.s. more impact they have now as a country with legal drugs, paedophiles party and marriages of same sex couples

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Poland held Russia from expanding to Middle Europe. Korea was a puppet of either Chinese or Japanese. Mali was a power in Africa, it was a damn rich country. Zulus? Fought against Brits and lost... Vikings conquered England, that is an impact. Portugal and Netherlands were important colonial powers.

 

[Vertico]

Well, which would the other ones be? Jews weren't expelled from the Italian states - except the areas controlled by Spain after the time you mentioned - or France, for instance...

And well before they were expelled from the Iberian paeninsula, they had been expelled from England (XIII century).

You know guys. I was thinking recently what is the problem with Jews?
Really. I can read that they were murdered and/or expelled from a different countries and civilizations:
Egipt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Arabs, Spain, France, England, Russia, Germany? Why most of mass exterminations was done on Jews?

Is it because of different culture? Or they always was a minority in those countries, weak enough to be the first beaten? I really have no idea.
Any theory?

 

[Prestidigitator]

Poland in Civ? No thanks. I'd rather play against iconic countries that invoke immediate images of culture/war/greatness. I loved Civ II because it only had core civs. I wish they didn't add so many civs in civ 3 and 4. When I want to play an epic game, the last thing I want to be as my competition is a country that is *clearly* dwarfed by such greats as Babylon, Egypt, Spain, China, Japan, India, etc. I want *epic* competition, not some crappy placeholder civ that was only added to appease a couple squeeky wheels.

Amen brother! You wrote briefly all what needs to be said .

Oh and about that ridicule about adding the Babylonians (my God how aren't they in the game ), or the Portugese is just plain rubbish. Poland got support only because it has got a large CivCommunity, nothing more, nothing less. Or else tell me, why add a civ like poland when there are still vast, major areas on the World map unrepresented??? I see no reason.

When the major areas are covered, I might see a slim possibility to consider your "petition".
Your most strong argument so far is that "Poland hasn't been in the Civ series ever..." well I think this has nothing to do with whether the civ needs to be in or not, some civs should basically never change or drop-out from a Civ game, the ones that Grav said.

Don't take anything personal , I meant no offense , all I'm saying is don't hold your breath over something superfluous.

 

[Psyringe]

(double post, please disregard)

 

[Psyringe]

You know guys. I was thinking recently what is the problem with Jews?
Really. I can read that they were murdered and/or expelled from a different countries and civilizations:
Egipt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Arabs, Spain, France, England, Russia, Germany? Why most of mass exterminations was done on Jews?

Is it because of different culture? Or they always was a minority in those countries, weak enough to be the first beaten? I really have no idea.
Any theory?

This topic is a mine field, but I'll try not to explode one.

I think it's safe to assume the following reasons:

1. The Jewish culture is older than many others. The Hugenots, for example, were expelled from France for reasons comparable to the expellation of Jews. But the Hugenots couldn't be expelled from Egypt because they simply weren't around when Egypt was still important.

2. While many Jews integrated into the culture they lived in (for example, in World War I, many Jews were fighting in the German army, because they saw themselves as Germans, and those never expected to be scapegoated as the arch-enemy of western civilization mere 15 years later), many others didn't - and there's nothing wrong with that. This did however make the Jews a rather distinct minority, which (due to different religion, different ceremonies, different customs about eating, clothing etc.) often seemed to be more "foreign" than minorities from other countries.

3. In Christian nations, Jews were for a long time discriminated as "the people who killed Christ". In a world where religious beliefs were a powerful factor in everyday's life, this had a very strong impact for a very long time.

4. Minorities are always in danger of being scapegoated for problems of the majority, and Jews always formed minorities.

5. Due to being around for such a long time, and having been scapegoated so often, every power that *wants* to scapegoat the Jews can build on misunderstandings, prejudices and even faked "facts" from ages past. This made them (and still makes them) an easy target.

6. Especially in medieval Europe, laws and customs prevented Jews from taking up "respected" professions, like becoming craftsmen. Among the professions that were allowed for them was the banking business, because dealing with money was regarded as something God frowned upon. This made some Jewish familish quite wealthy. Being wealthy *and* foreign, they were ideal scapegoats for the poor populace that had no idea about the reasons behind this situation.

If you put these reasons together, I think it's easy to see why Jews were expelled and scapegoated so often.

The difficulty of discussing this that even today, people run around taking the fact that Jews have been expelled and persecuted very often as an argument that there must be something wrong with them and their culture, which is quite ignorant to the historical facts and developments

 

[Vertico]

If you put these reasons together, I think it's easy to see why Jews were expelled and scapegoated so often.

The difficulty of discussing this is that even today, people run around taking the fact that Jews have been expelled and persecuted very often as an argument that there must be something wrong with them and their culture, which is quite ignorant to the historical facts.

This is my point. I know some Jews and they are common people as of course expected, who are statistically the same as all others. And that's why I asked this question. Something makes common people crazy to kill their neighbours!
Similar situation to Yugoslavia, when three nations who lived together for years sudenly started to exterminate each other

 

[Vertico]

Amen brother! You wrote briefly all what needs to be said .

Oh and about that ridicule about adding the Babylonians (my God how aren't they in the game ), or the Portugese is just plain rubbish. Poland got support only because it has got a large CivCommunity, nothing more, nothing less. Or else tell me, why add a civ like poland when there are still vast, major areas on the World map unrepresented??? I see no reason.

Do you play always on earth map? Or you maybe sometimes choose random maps with random continents? What does it mean "unrepresented area on the wolrd map"? I You feel that "Europe" is over represented - mabe we will replace Germany with Poland (as they are geographical very similar) and problem solved?

And this *epic* argument is poor too. Should we add civilization just basing on how long their stand in history? ok, let's try, how epic is:

• America - 200 years
• Aztecs - 200 years
• Mali - 300 years
• Inca - 400 years
• Russia (with Muscovy) - 700 years

Poland with 1000 years of history should be compared rather with:

• Spain (with Castille) - 900 years
• England - 1000 years
• Rome - 1200 years
• Germany 1200 years

 

[Prestidigitator]

Do you play always on earth map? Or you maybe sometimes choose random maps with random continents? What does it mean "unrepresented area on the wolrd map"? I You feel that "Europe" is over represented - mabe we will replace Germany with Poland (as they are geographical very similar) and problem solved?

We have Germany which does the job more than well, and yes, I play on a real Earth map .

And this *epic* argument is poor too. Should we add civilization just basing on how long their stand in history? ok, let's try, how epic is:

Would you please point me to the right direction? where did I mention that we should choose civs based on their timeline length?

One last thing:

how epic is:

• America - 200 years
&#8226; Aztecs - 200 years << You gotta be kidding me.
&#8226; Mali - 300 years
&#8226; Inca - 400 years << No way, way older than that.
&#8226; Russia (with Muscovy) - 700 years

Poland with 1000 years of history should be compared rather with:

&#8226; Spain (with Castille) - 900 years
&#8226; England - 1000 years
&#8226; Rome - 1200 years <<Excuse me?
&#8226; Germany 1200 years

 

[Vertico]

Amen brother! You wrote briefly all what needs to be said .

this is it