Petition to add Poland

[Willowmound]

Cowed the princes of Muscovy, the Prussian warlords, the Scandanavians, the Hungarians.

Now you're making things up.

 

[MoonBase]

Now you're making things up.

"cowed", not "conquered".

But yeah, pretty much.

 

[Vertico]

I will ask a simple question. if Poland does not deserve to be added to civ why for example we have added:

Americans?
It is not a true civilization. Maybe it will but after just 200 years it is still just summ of italian, irish, freanch, polish, chinese, mexican citizens.
USA has not true history yet, even if it is strong country now.
The only reason I can find is thet too many potencial buyers of the game lives there


Germans?
What Germans did more for civilization than Poland? Most of their history, there were not Germany - but just many small duches, kingdoms. Famous people? As everywhere, not many more that Polish if at all?
Had some golden eras but as every country. For some time Saxony was even united with Poland. Why they in game?
Because this is the first market in Europe


Russians
Why to add Russian civilization? Despite they curently have largest territory they were always considered as colossus on clay legs. Not too many famous people, not too many wars won. Anyway, if Americans are in game, Russians must be too, to give American buyers possibility to win over Russians


So I would suggest to firaxis team, that Poland has almost 40mln citizens and that means that market for Civ is about half of the german one - not bad I would say. Please add Poland, to take more profits

 

[a4phantom]

I will ask a simple question. if Poland does not deserve to be added to civ why for example we have added:

Americans?
It is not a true civilization. Maybe it will but after just 200 years it is still just summ of italian, irish, freanch, polish, chinese, mexican citizens.
USA has not true history yet, even if it is strong country now.
The only reason I can find is thet too many potencial buyers of the game lives there

You're joking right? America is the New Rome, and that title was not given by a fan of ours or meant as a compliment. America has the most powerful military the world has ever seen, every other military force on the planet could not fight the United States in a conventional war. America's economy has controlled the world for most of the 20th century, and although it is being undermined by debt while China rises America is likely to maintain the economic lead as well as the military lead for the early part of the 21st century. America (as distinct from the Native Americans), has 400 years of history, 215 or so as a nation. American culture is exported all over the world (even if much of it is crap). Not only are potential buyers of the game American, but so is the guy who invented it, and the guys who invented much of the technology that brings us to the point of being able to play computer games. America's also been an icon to the world for centuries of hope, tolerance and freedom. These ideals have often been betrayed, I happen to think we're soiling them terribly right now, but there they are. Ask yourself why all of those "italian, irish, freanch, polish, chinese, mexican citizens" were and are so desperate to come to the United States, and why no one comes to Poland except to conquer it, and even then only to get at what's on the other side.

Germans?
What Germans did more for civilization than Poland? Most of their history, there were not Germany - but just many small duches, kingdoms. Famous people? As everywhere, not many more that Polish if at all?
Had some golden eras but as every country. For some time Saxony was even united with Poland. Why they in game?
Because this is the first market in Europe

Lots of Great People and cultural influence, enormous economy, two world wars, great military exploits, notoriety.

Russians
Why to add Russian civilization? Despite they curently have largest territory they were always considered as colossus on clay legs. Not too many famous people, not too many wars won. Anyway, if Americans are in game, Russians must be too, to give American buyers possibility to win over Russians

There's some truth to that, except about the lack of famous people. Yet Russia was the primary force in defeating Nazi Germany in WW2, and went on to rule or dominate half the world for 40 years.

So I would suggest to firaxis team, that Poland has almost 40mln citizens and that means that market for Civ is about half of the german one - not bad I would say. Please add Poland, to take more profits

I don't understand why there aren't 20 more civs in the game, other than the desire to keep rolling out expansions. They can't take up that much space, a leaderhead, a unit picture, some numbers. Maybe the game is running out of distinct colors. I suppose it's also hard to come up with distinct UU abilities.

 

[Lexad]

I'm not voting for anything described as

****ry

, pardon my Polish.

Sure, you guys stopped commies. Whatever.

However I agree sometimes you'd like to have more civs in the game w/o special modding. Maybe create a custom civ you can allocate leader traits, UU and UB in some proportions...

 

[Silver Lynx]

Hmm... Well, why not. The more the better. IMHO it's no some principle difference between Poland, USA, Russia, Aztecs, Greece etc. It's interesting for me to play for all nations. I would support an addition of Butane, or Italy for example, or Estonia, or Belarus etc. not giving some value to their history, territory size and number of great people (the only condition for me - established facts of history, not an extent of greatness - just facts).

It should be a shame to those who transforms discussion of a new civilization into nationalist propagation and repartition of history. All the nations are equal also all equally interesting. Besides, it's only game. It's not a real politics

P.S. Sorry for my possible mistakes at the foregoing text, I hope, everybody understood me

 

[Chazcon]

While it's noble and patriotic of you to petition for your home country's inclusion in the next version of Civ, I have to ask the question: What makes your country more important to include than all the other (hundreds) of nations that are not included in Civ IV?

The reality is, when developing a game, time, money, and space is limited and the game designer must make compromises. If CivIV had been released with Botswana, Argentina, New Guinea, Poland, Latvia, Afghanistan, Finland, Chile, and Pakistan, the average consumer would have been confused and irritated that a more commonly accepted group of 'major' nations were not included.

My suggestion - make a Polish civ mod. Or use an existing one. When Poland's GDP and population is on par with the top 15 or 20 nations, try again.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

"cowed", not "conquered".

But yeah, pretty much.

The Poles did not cow the Scandinavians. In fact, they had their butts handed to them by the Swedes on several occasions. Still, that is very much a minor detail.

 

[Vertico]

Hmm... Well, why not. The more the better. IMHO it's no some principle difference between Poland, USA, Russia, Aztecs, Greece etc. It's interesting for me to play for all nations. I would support an addition of Butane, or Italy for example, or Estonia, or Belarus etc. not giving some value to their history, territory size and number of great people (the only condition for me - established facts of history, not an extent of greatness - just facts).

It should be a shame to those who transforms discussion of a new civilization into nationalist propagation and repartition of history. All the nations are equal also all equally interesting. Besides, it's only game. It's not a real politics

P.S. Sorry for my possible mistakes at the foregoing text, I hope, everybody understood me

This is what I meant in my last post. There is no difference between civilizations. Everyone deserve to be added. This is just a game. So if we had already so many different civilizations, would be nice to have Poland.
If the players would vote for Bhutan, Belarus, Italy, Hittites, why not to fulfill they requests. I can see very clearly that more that 1000 playes signed a petition to add Poland. So why no add?

If I see another 1000 people wanting to add Uzbekistan I would support them as well (btw Uzbek Khanat was quite powerfull for some time)

 

[Vertico]

The Poles did not cow the Scandinavians. In fact, they had their butts handed to them by the Swedes on several occasions. Still, that is very much a minor detail.

Yeah, yeah, especially here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kircholm

"The battle was decided in 20 minutes by the devastating charge of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth cavalry, the Winged Hussars"

 

[Abaddon]

Add it via a mod you silly sods

 

[MoonBase]

The Poles did not cow the Scandinavians. In fact, they had their butts handed to them by the Swedes on several occasions. Still, that is very much a minor detail.

Kinda like how "Poland has never been a seminal power in Europe" is a minor detail, or how Vienna was an unimportant city during the Turkish invasions is a minor detail?

Vertico beat me to the punch, but why is it I am the one accused of making stuff up when this sort of thing gets posted? Really now.

 

[a4phantom]

This is what I meant in my last post. There is no difference between civilizations. Everyone deserve to be added. This is just a game. So if we had already so many different civilizations, would be nice to have Poland.
If the players would vote for Bhutan, Belarus, Italy, Hittites, why not to fulfill they requests. I can see very clearly that more that 1000 playes signed a petition to add Poland. So why no add?

If I see another 1000 people wanting to add Uzbekistan I would support them as well (btw Uzbek Khanat was quite powerfull for some time)

You're not responding to my explanation of why Germany, Russia and America deserved to be civs, so I will try to give you a shorter answer: Wernher von Braun, Uri Gagarin, Neil Armstrong.

 

[Eskel]

While it's noble and patriotic of you to petition for your home country's inclusion in the next version of Civ, I have to ask the question: What makes your country more important to include than all the other (hundreds) of nations that are not included in Civ IV?

The reality is, when developing a game, time, money, and space is limited and the game designer must make compromises. If CivIV had been released with Botswana, Argentina, New Guinea, Poland, Latvia, Afghanistan, Finland, Chile, and Pakistan, the average consumer would have been confused and irritated that a more commonly accepted group of 'major' nations were not included.

My suggestion - make a Polish civ mod. Or use an existing one. When Poland's GDP and population is on par with the top 15 or 20 nations, try again.

Actually, Poland is:
23rd in the world under GDP term - 533,522$m
32nd in the world under population term - 38,1mln
65th in the world under area term - 120728 sq mi
of total 208 countries.
In Civ4 + Warlords exp pack is 36 leaders/24 civs, with 2nd exp pack estimated 46/30.


BTW: "what makes your country..." argument can be addressed under any nation, including those already put in Civ4. Going that way we should use "faction A", "faction B" naming etc.

BTW2: I guess Romans, Babylonians, Iroquis etc. GDP and populations surely is in par to top 20 countries by now.

 

[Eskel]

You're not responding to my explanation of why Germany, Russia and America deserved to be civs, so I will try to give you a shorter answer: Wernher von Braun, Uri Gagarin, Neil Armstrong.

So Poland as Copernicus mother country would be nice addition to this list.
Howsoever, with all the respect to the Vertico, he/she is exaggerating, euphemistically saying.

 

[Chazcon]

23rd, 32nd, and 65th != 15-20.

Nice try.

 

[Eskel]

23rd, 32nd, and 65th != 15-20.

Nice try.

Thats why i compared those ranks to number of civs and leaders in game.
15-20 numbers You listed is arbitrary choice without justification.

 

[a4phantom]

So Poland as Copernicus mother country would be nice addition to this list.
Howsoever, with all the respect to the Vertico, he/she is exaggerating, euphemistically saying.

Oh, don't forget Karol Wojtyła! Yeah, that certainly makes Poland's exclusion from the "30 or so arbitrarily defined 'civilizations' Sid Meier and team decided would make an interesting game club" an injustice . . .

Two questions in response.
1. Did you read the other justifications I gave for those three being represented? It wasn't just that they each contributed a single Great Person, or even the exploration of space, the greatest scientific achievement of mankind, represented by them.
2. Why was Poland only these Great People's point of origin? Why didn't they stay there to be great?

I'm not opposed to Poland (I think it would be even more fun to force Poland to convert to Judaism than to make Isabela Muslim) being a civ, but the game is already crowded with European representatives, and there doesn't seem to be anything that makes Poland stand out in the way that seems to grant Civhood.

 

[Eskel]

Oh, don't forget Karol Wojtyła! Yeah, that certainly makes Poland's exclusion from the "30 or so arbitrarily defined 'civilizations' Sid Meier and team decided would make an interesting game club" an injustice . . .

Two questions in response.
1. Did you read the other justifications I gave for those three being represented? It wasn't just that they each contributed a single Great Person, or even the exploration of space, the greatest scientific achievement of mankind, represented by them.
2. Why was Poland only these Great People's point of origin? Why didn't they stay there to be great?

I'm not opposed to Poland (I think it would be even more fun to force Poland to convert to Judaism than to make Isabela Muslim) being a civ, but the game is already crowded with European representatives, and there doesn't seem to be anything that makes Poland stand out in the way that seems to grant Civhood.

1. I dont neglect Germany, America or Russia "membership" in game
2. Actually, Copernicus never left Poland. If you are asking about Joseph Conrad-Korzeniowski or Marie Sklodovska-Curie, I guess because Poland was under occupation that time. But those listed never denied their nationhood (in fact the polish roots category could be much longer, but I decided to list only people who were polish born and felt polish).

About overcrowding with european countries you are right, but:
1. Europe as a whole had huge impact over world's history
2. I agree that there should be more non-european countries added, especially Khmer, Siam, Brasilia, Ethiopia, maybe Mayan, Babylon or (let it be) Iroquis. From Europe, maybe Portugal and Netherland, but it doesnt count against over-euro-representation.
3. Despite this I think that there is space for Poland still. Instead of adding more leaders to the existing civs (e.g. Stalin ), there could be more new civs, and after those I had written above Poland could be included.
4. If you really dont like over-representation, then just look how this is done inside Europe: west is in almost complete shape, when from east, non-germanic countries there is only Russia to choose from.
5. Somebody has started a thread about 19 unused trait combos.

 

[a4phantom]

You're right about Copernicus remaining in Poland, for a second I was thinking of Galileo. Moron (me).

As for Europe being overrepresented, I don't really care but I suspect it influences the expansion pack designers. And I didn't mean that Europe didn't deserve to have so many players in the game, since it was indeed the European Empires that have dominated the world for the past several centuries, along with Rome and Greece serving as the foundations for much of the world's civilization. The comparable Asian influences are pretty much concentrated into a few huge countries/civilizations, China and India. Still, now that the main European powers are included, before adding intriguing but less obvious European nations like Poland and Italy, I suspect the game makers are more interested in adding diversity (Babylon should already be there, Ethiopia is a very good choice, you listed other good possibilities). As for Stalin, he murdered many distant relatives of mine (and 20+ million other people) and was one of the great beasts of history, but he was certainly one of the dominating figures of human history as well, and not an unreasonable choice for the game.