Willowmound
Wordbug
Willowmound, the whole thread is pretty ridiculous.
Started with "Poland is bestest there is", got more so with "Poland never done nothing, never", and has continued on in that vein since.
Well, I'll agree to that
Petition to add Poland
- Thread starter LDeska
- Start date
Well, I'll agree to that
Charles 22
King
Small correction: Italy is just as major a nation as France, and always has been, but Italy has just about always been in the civ series, when you consider the Romans.
I can't imagine what you mean by that. Explain?
Charles 22
King
The whole notion that Firaxis includes civs that will aid sales is bogus as I see it. If this were the case they would always tell you the civs included in the game on the box and I can't recall them doing that for any part of the series. In the expansions that may be an exception, because an extremely few people buy expansions who don't already have the game and -then- they might sell more to those who already own it by virtue of seeing a nation they like being added in. What's more, how many Iroqious or Mayans do you think are out there? I think Brazil would make a pretty decent new civ choice for example, but the Latin America countries don't have the affluence commonly of the NAmericans, Europeans, or Asians to be large computer software customers (by comparison).
Charles 22
King
Don't you ever get tired of seeing the same old civs all the time? Poland, Mexico, and Brazil have all NEVER been in (although Mexico could be said to have been the Mayans and Aztecs I think) ANY of the civ games, and then you come up with Netherlands, Portugal, and Bablylon which have all been in IIRC.
Charles 22
King
Actually, I heard somewhere that there are more polish people in Chicago than Warsaw itself!
Yeah the nazis kind of set them back for a while.
True, although a lot of the Poles killed by the Nazis weren't exactly beloved by other Poles. And if I'm not mistaken there are more Poles in Chicago than any other city <i> besides </i> Warsaw.
Charles 22
King
Weren't you claiming that Italy was a minor nation?
So who are the big euro nations? England, Germany, France, Spain, Italy. That would be my top five, unless you wanted to count Russia as euro. I'm all for Poland mostly because she had been excluded from every game and then dumpy tribes are being put in, but Italy is not a minor civ (or Romans) even though I consider Poland generally of less prominence than Italy. Since WWII both Poland and Italy have been more in the shadows, but especially Italy was a "major" power in the world for lengthy periods of time, with certainly the Roman Empire being huge as a good deal of that.
The quote I have from you is wrong on two counts concerning Italy, She both is in the game already, at her zenith as Rome, and also her history was anything but less obvious, especially if you recall the Romans. I know if I were Italian I would consider the Romans as Italy.
Charles 22
King
Maybe you ought to read up on Warsaw, as virtually the whole population was wiped out (and then some people from other areas herded over to the Warsaw ghettoes the nazis set up), so the only question of those being killed weren't liked, was by means of the nazis not liking them, not the Poles so much. The nazis focused quite a bit on Jews in Poland, but in Warsaw in particular they worked at times on starving out the entire population. Probably the worst Warsaw had was long after the Jews had been pretty much all sent to the camps.
1. I said Italy was a young country, and one without a distinguished political or military record. No one's given evidence against my position on either count. So when you say "Small correction: Italy is just as major a nation as France, and always has been", you should back it up with some facts. France has been a unified country and a major military and economic power for about 1000 years. Italy has only been a country for about 150, and never a military power or a dominant economy. France colonized much of the world, and was often the dominant power in Europe. Italy did neither.
2. When after the Roman Empire, which Civilization and most people consider distinct and seperate, was Italy "a 'major' power in the world" for a "lengthy period of time"?
3. So because you've decided for us that Rome = Italy, I am "wrong". I understand now. But why is Rome the same as Italy? There's no continuity of language, culture, politics, geographical borders, or anything much else, despite a wierd attempt at revival under Mussolini. I don't think Italians consider themselves Romans, they're pretty new to even considering themselves Italians rather than say Florentines or Venicians. You might as well say that France and Spain are represented by the Roman Empire, since their languages have the same Latin roots as Italian, they're Catholic, and geographically they were parts of the Roman Empire. You could say that the Cherokee are represented by the United States, since we are where they were and we use some of their words and names. So why am I wrong to not conflate Rome and Italy?
I'm familiar with both the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and the Warsaw uprising. Warsaw was heavily damaged by the Luftwaffe and other bombardament, but nothing close to "wiped out" in the German invasion, so your timeline is at least off because people (Polish Jews) were herded OUT of captured Warsaw INTO the ghettos, which were then "liquidated" to fill the death camps. The Germans demolished Warsaw at the end of the war, long after the ghettos had been destroyed, when the Red Army approached from the East but then halted and allowed the Uprising to be crushed. They scattered and impoverished the residents of Warsaw, but did 'wipe them out' as they had the ghettos.
And although there were many Poles who saw the Nazis as a worse enemy than their own Jewish neighbors, there were also a great many Poles who valiantly opposed German occupation and yet wholeheartedly agreed with everything the Nazis said and did regarding the Jews. So yes, the Polish hatred of the Jews killed a great many, both before and after the Germans arrived. By letting the Germans destroy Warsaw the Russians treated the Poles as the Poles had treated the Jews.
May I ask from what source you got such knowledge about polish-jewish relations? And did you ever thought why there were so many Jews in Poland (about half of all european jews lived there before 1939)? Jews must have been pretty masochistic people to live in country, which would treat them as you describe.
Psyringe
Scout
That is common historic knowledge as far as I know - at least I've never heard someone disputing it. Anti-Jewish mindsets were very common at that time - in Germany, in France, in the US, in Poland, anywhere. It wasn't a specifical German thing (the Germans *did* put it to unspeakably cruel extremes though). In every country that Germany invaded there were also people who agreed with Anti-Jewish politics (not that they had to be *killed*, but the notion "they are a problem, something has to be done about them, we would be better off without them" was *very* common at that time, in the whole western world, including Poland.
Sure antisemitism was widespread everywhere, but a4phantom seems to identify it only with Poland. He also makes claims like " the Polish hatred of the jews killed a great many, both before and after the Germans arrived" while I wonder if he knows how many Poles lost their lives saving jews (in occupied Poland, Germas punished with death everyone who helped jews).
But I wasn't talking about ww2 in my earlier post. I was talking about the fact that between 13th to 20th cent. large part of european jewry lived in polish territories. How would they come there from Spain, France or Germany if not because Poland was the most tolerant country for them?
Psyringe
Scout
Well, if we apply this line of argument, then the shift to a 3d graphic engine hasn't been done to aid sales either, because it isn't mentioned on the box either.
(As are many other features, the box text was very generic this time).I'm not saying you're wrong - actually we can't know, since none of us has inside knowledge about Firaxis, so all we can do is speculate. But I think this specific argument of yours is not very convincing. No game publisher puts every decision (that has been made to further sales) on the box. Lots of communication goes through other channels, like forums and reviews. We could check the Civ4 reviews of countries that can't be sure that "their" civilization would be added - for example the Scandinavian countries, Netherlands, or Portugal. I'd be very surprised if the Scandinavian reviews did not mention that the Vikings are finally included, and I'd be likewise surprised if the Dutch reviews didn't mention that the Dutch still aren't - because this is an information that interests potential buyers. And because of this, Firaxis would be stupid not to take that into account - and I don't think they are.
[/QUOTE]There aren't many Mayans left, although their descendants *do* still exist, but I don't think they have enough buying power to add them on this basis.
That's why I think that Firaxis takes *several* criteria into account, the number of potential customers being one of them. I think the Mayans were added because of historical importance, and because Southern and Central America were still a little underserved with only one civilization each. Scenario design decisions may also have influenced that decision.Concerning the Iroquois, I think they actually *were* included to appeal to native American customers, ot to American customers in general (who would like to play American history scenarios).
Anyway, this is veering off topic, so I'll stop now.
Ben E Gas
King
I am always for adding a new civ. The more the better in my opinion. I'd say 'yes' for poland as long as it doesn't mean taking away another civ.
You're joking right? If you're not up to reading a history book, you could, as a last resort, watch Schindler's List or Fiddler on the Roof. You could talk to my great grandparents (Polish Jews) if they they were still alive. As for why Jews lived in Poland if it was well and truly antisemitic, did it occur to you that Jews also lived in Germany? Russia? Are you going to claim that these countries were also not anti-semitic? Did it occur to you that people have to live somewhere? My country treated Black Americans horribly, sometimes to the point of pogrom (a word you should look up) for over a century after they gained freedom, yet here they remained. As for your assertion that I'm only blaming Poland for antisemitism, that's absurd for a great many reasons, chiefly that I mentioned the Germans as perpetrators of the Holocaust and the Poles only as collaborators. And many Poles did give their lives to save their Jewish neighbors. They are heroes for going against the grain. Many Germans did the same thing.
I am sorry for my English.
Not too many famous people???? It is a joke?
Not too many wars won???? It is a joke too??
1243-1480 constrained Golden Horde, saving that the Europe
WW2 - If not the USSR, to the world would come the end.
These are two largest victories which have influenced all history of mankind. Owing to other victories Russia has increased the territory till the sizes of the 1/6 part of a land.
Russia possesses the world's largest reconnoitered stocks of natural gas and the second place on stocks of oil.
In Russia one of the best (and on many positions the best) the weapon in the world is made.
Russian theatre and opera - are recognized by all world.
Great people:
Dostoevsky
Pushkin
Tolstoy
Sholokhov
Mendeleyev
Pavlov
Sakhorov
Lomonosov
Kulibin
Kalashnikov
Korolev
Gagarin
Tereshkova
Zhukov
Stalin
Ivan IV
Peter I
Approximately 50 % of all Nobel winners have Russian roots. Even in Einstein the Odessa blood flows.
This list can be continued still very much and very long.
MuXa.
Service Pack 1
1) Comparing to page: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4811183&postcount=49
It doesn't look impresive.
I can say that Poland saved Western Europe from Soviet Expansion on 1920
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War
Territory is not a factor - why there is no Canada then?
Also natural resources don't make a civilization.
Waiting for more arguments...
2) Someone talked about Gagarin and space: I can give at least two examples of Polish astronauts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirosław_Hermaszewski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Pawelczyk
3) Polish-Jews relationships
I have no idea from where you took informations about such big anti-Semitism. I would say that despite minor problems, Poland was always a great place for minorities including Jews.
I would like to remaind that Jews were expelled from Spain, Austria, Bohemia, Germany - making Poland the centre of Jewish world for many centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland
I would like also remind that Germans has killed milions of Jews - not Poles and creation and next liquidation of Warsaw Ghetto was not Polish idea, but German
I'm really concerned what is teached in western shools. Maybe after next 100 years my grandsons will learn that maybe Poland started II WW
Quick search for easily shared sources, usual caveats for Wikipedia:
Overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Jews
Active, eager collaboration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom
Righteous Poles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_The_Nations#Count_per_country_and_ethnic_origin
Overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Jews
Active, eager collaboration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom
Righteous Poles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_The_Nations#Count_per_country_and_ethnic_origin
The three I listed were the greatest rocket scientist, the first man in space (Gagarin), and the first man to walk on the moon. Much more important than simply being astronauts.
3) Polish-Jews relationships
I have no idea from where you took informations about such big anti-Semitism. I would say that despite minor problems, Poland was always a great place for minorities including Jews.
I would like to remaind that Jews were expelled from Spain, Austria, Bohemia, Germany - making Poland the centre of Jewish world for many centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland
I would like also remind that Germans has killed milions of Jews - not Poles and creation and next liquidation of Warsaw Ghetto was not Polish idea, but German
I'm really concerned what is teached in western shools. Maybe after next 100 years my grandsons will learn that maybe Poland started II WW
I guess we'll just have to differ over what constitutes a "great place" or a "minor problem".
Jedwabne pogrom
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Jedwabne pogrom (or Jedwabne massacre) was a massacre of Jewish people living in and near the town of Jedwabne in Poland that occurred during World War II, in July 1941. Although long assumed to have been a Nazi Einsatzgruppen operation, it is now known that the massacre was mostly executed by non-Jewish Poles and "Volksdeutsche" in the area. Whether and how far the occupying German forces were involved remains the subject of dispute among historians.
Contents
The massacre
Following their attack on the Soviet Union in June 1941, German forces quickly overran those areas of Poland that the Soviet Union had annexed as part of the 1939 Nazi-Soviet pact. The Nazis distributed propaganda in the area claiming that Jews had assisted in crimes committed by the Soviet Union in Poland and the SS organized special Einsatzgruppen ("task forces") to murder Jews in these areas. The small town of Wizna, for example, near Jedwabne in the northeast of Poland, saw several dozen Jewish men shot by the invading Germans.
A month later, on the morning of July 10, 1941, a number of non-Jewish inhabitants of Jedwabne rounded up their Jewish neighbors and any others they could find, including Jews visiting from nearby towns and villages such as Wizna and Kolno. They were taken to the square in the centre of Jedwabne, where they were attacked and beaten. A group of about forty to fifty Jews, including the local rabbi, were then forced to destroy a monument of Lenin placed in the square during the Soviet occupation. This group was then murdered and buried in a mass grave along with fragments of the monument.
Some time later witness statements vary from one to a few hours most of the remaining Jews that had been rounded up (and had survived being beaten) were herded into a barn, which was then set alight. They were burned alive.
[edit] Controversy and investigation
It was generally assumed that the Jedwabne massacre was an atrocity committed by an SS Einsatzgruppe until 1997-2000, when Agnieszka Arnold's Where is my older brother, Cain? and Neighbors documentary films were produced, followed by a detailed study of the event [1] by Polish-American historian Jan T. Gross, who described the massacre as a pogrom. Gross concluded that, contrary to received accounts, the Jews in Jedwabne had been rounded up, clubbed, drowned, gutted or burned to death by mobs of their own non-Jewish neighbors, without any supervision or assistance from an Einsatzgruppe or other German force.
Not surprisingly, the book caused enormous controversy in Poland and many people, including historians, questioned its conclusions. Tomasz Strzembosz, Professor of History at the Catholic University of Lublin and at the Polish Academy of Sciences' Institute of Political Studies, argued that though Poles would have been involved, the operation had been supervised by German forces [1].
Following an intensive investigation the Polish Institute of National Remembrance (Instytut Pamięci Narodowej, IPN) released a report in 2002 in which they supported some of Gross's findings, although the number of Jews killed (around 380) was significantly lower than 1,600 he had indicated earlier. (Confirmation of an exact number of victims was not possible due to opposition from Jewish religious authorities to the exhumation of bodies.) The IPN also found that there were eight German policemen present, so the degree of German involvement remains an open question. Many witnesses claim to have seen German soldiers that day in Jedwabne, whereas others contend that they had not witnessed Germans in the town at that time. As contemporary court records show, the active involvement of non-Jewish Poles is beyond doubt, but the question of extent and nature of possible German participation has not been settled. The IPN concludes that the crime in a broader sense (concerning the initiative) must be ascribed to the Germans, whilst in a stricter sense (concerning the atrocities) to non-Jewish Poles, estimated at about 40 people. After the war ended, in 1945, Jedwabne had a gentile population of 1,670.
In 2001 the President of Poland, Aleksander Kwaśniewski, officially apologized on behalf of Poland to the Jewish people for this crime [2]. This caused a certain criticism, as some considered Jedwabne to be a solely German crime, while others believed that the Polish nation was not to bear responsibility for the crimes performed by some. At that time when Kwaśniewski offered the apology, the IPN investigation was not yet completed.
References
1. ^ Gross, Jan Tomasz (2001). "Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland". Princeton University Press. ISBN 0-14-200240-2.
* Dariusz Stola, "Jedwabne: Revisiting the evidence and nature of the crime", Holocaust and Genocide Studies, vol. 17, no. 1, Spring 2003, 139-152.
* Antony Polonsky and Joanna B. Michlic (editors), The Neighbors Respond: The Controversy over the Jedwabne Massacre in Poland, Princeton University Press, 2003, ISBN 0-691-11306-8.
* Chodakiewicz, Marek Jan (2005). "The Massacre in Jedwabne, July 10, 1941: Before, During, After". Columbia University Press and East European Monographs. ISBN 0-88033-554-8.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom
Similar threads
