Willowmound
Wordbug
You're right: you are wrong. Dracula was from Transylvania, a province of Romania.
Petition to add Poland
- Thread starter LDeska
- Start date
You're right: you are wrong. Dracula was from Transylvania, a province of Romania.
polskadupa
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2006
- Messages
- 16
Hey everyone, I’m new to the forum and I just wanted to say that I think this mod an great idea! The only problem that I’m facing is that it is for Warlord and not vanilla. So, I was wondering if there was any way to play this mod on the vanilla version. Thanks a lot and keep up the good work!
Charles 22
King
True, but I didn't state my entire case for Poland. That such a major european nation would not once grace civ's list of nations is but another trinket of reason for their inclusion. Surely a more minor nation or some extinct one can by the time of Civ X step aside for Poland?
Peru? By all means, but surely after Poland. I can't recall Brazil being in this game either, which by size alone should have it as a candidate for the Americas. Hmm, now that leaves Canada doesn't it?
Maybe you just didn't learn history enough?
Why don't you know well quantum physics?
Fot you and for other playes I will give some fact about Poland in history, to let you know that was more important than for example Vikings - who did nothing special beside playing in Asterix
(quote after Vojtas from civ.org.pl):History:
- 10th century roots of first Polish Kingdom;
- XVI century - Poland both with Great Dutchery of Lithuania; (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) was at this time one of Europe's most powerful countries;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth
- revolutionary heliocentric theory of the solar system developed by great Polish astronomer and mathematician, Nicolaus Copernicus;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus
- Poland was a country of religious liberty and tolerance, "country without burning stakes";
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Confederation
- Polish troops were the only conquerors of Kremlin, Moscow;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles
- heavy cavalry - Polish Winged Hussar - was one of the most dangerous mounted unit of its time - even against gunpowder units such as musketman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Husarz.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kirchholm.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hetman_Zolkiewski_z_husaria.jpg
More ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussar )
- Tadeusz Kosciuszko and Kazimierz Pulaski - both Polish and American heroes of independence wars (American Revolutionary War and Polish Kosciuszko Uprising):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosciuszko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz_Pulaski
Phrase "For your freedom and ours" is commonly shown on polish military banners
- Constitution of May 3, 1791 - second, after American, modern constitution in the world and first in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_third_May
- November 11, 1918 - Poland regained independence after 123 years of foreign (Germany, Austria, Russia) occupation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozef_Pilsudski
- October 1920 - Battle of Warsaw called "18th most decisive battle in
world's history" (expression of lord d’Abernon, prominent military
historician) - culmination of Polish-Soviet War and great victory of Polish soldiers - they stoped invasion of Soviet Red Army to the Western Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War
- 1932 - polish cryptologists broke Enigma's code, Nazi german portable cipher machine used to encrypt and decrypt secret messages - it is belived that breaking of Enigma's code shortened World War II by
12 months
http://www.enigmahistory.org/text.html
- September, 1 - October, 2 1939 - World War II - Poland fought against Nazi Germany and Soviet invasions and fell - Polish government moved to France and later to England - Poland never surrender and never collaborate with occupying authorities (the only exception in Europe). The Poles formed Home Army - one of the largest underground resistance movement during World War II largest underground army in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Army
- World War II: 600,000 Polish soldiers fought on Allied side
- 1978 - Archbishop of Cracow, Karol Wojtyla, elected pope - John Paul II, one of the most beloved and influential Head of the Roman Catholic Church, begins to dismantling comunism in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karol_Wojtyla
- August 1980 - Polish trade union federation rised conducted by Lech Walesa - "Solidarity" era begun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech_Wa%C5%82%C4%99sa
//BTW - in Civ2 when civil disorder - there were graphics with Solidarity
//- June 4, 1989 - first democratic elections in Warsaw Pact - peaceful revolution in Poland starts chain reaction in Central and Eastern Europe - Cold War begun to end
Eskel
Warlord
Öjevind Lång;4807363 said:
You tried to insult Polish by diminishing our achievements; if we took your method to judge what civ should be included in Civ, I think very few nations would match this criteria - from contemporary countries only Chinese, Indians, Americans, English, Russians, and Spanish i think. I know that Polish dont meet those "serious influence" requirements, but nor does Scandinavians and many others.
There is amazing mixture of lies, ignorance and arrogance in your post. Maybe you would give some facts to support your offensive thesis?
The only period in our 1000 year history we were occupied was that of 127 years of Poland's Partition and 6 years in WWII . If I am not completely idiot, it gives 13,3%, what surely isnt "most" or majority. Many other european countries had similar or even longer periods of dependancy.
About famous Poles:
Witelo - also known as Erazmus Ciolek Witelo, Witelon, Vitellio, Vitello, friar, theologian and scientist: physicist, natural philosopher, mathematician, precursor of perception psychology.
Joannes Dantiscus - poet
Joannes Hevelius - founder of lunar topography
Nicolai Copernicus - you should know
Karol Chodkiewicz - military leader
Stanislaw Zolkiewski- military leader
Tadeus Kosciuszko- military leader, polish and american war hero
Casimir Pulaski- military leader, polish and american war hero
Joseph Bem- military leader, polish and hungarian war hero
Fryderyk Chopin - composer
Adam Mickiewicz - romantic poet
Joseph Conrad Korzeniowski - novelist
Ignacy Lukasiewicz- discovery of the refining of kerosene from crude oil (1852), kerosene lamp (1853), the founding of the first oil well (1854) and the building of the first oil refinery (1856).
Maria Sklodovska-Curie - pioneer in the early field of radioactivity, Nobel proze in Physics and Chemistry
Jan Czochralski - invented the Czochralski process, which is used to grow single crystals and is used in the production of semiconductor wafers
Kaziemierz Funk - discoverer of vitamins
Wladyslaw Reymont - Nobel prize in Literature
Henryk Sienkiewicz - Nobel prize in Literature
karol Olszewski together with Zygmunt Wróblewski and Karol Sitarski were the first to liquefy oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide from the atmosphere in a stable state (not, as had been the case up to then, in a dynamic state in the transitional form as vapour).
Stefan Banach - founded modern functional analysis and made major contributions to the theory of topological vector spaces
Jerzy Rozycki, Henryk Zygalski and Marian Rejewski - breaking the Enigma code
Milosz - Nobel prize in Literature
John Paul II - you know who i hope
Lech Walesa - as above
Wislawa Szymborska - Nobel prize in Literature
Aleksander Wolszczan - discoverer of first planet outside solar system
polish roots had as well:
Guillame Apolinaire Kostrowicki
Andrzej Wiktor Schally
and many more
But I guess you believe this list is short and its influence "insignificant".
BTW: Babylon, Portugal, Netherlands, Maya candidature are unquestionable. Khmer I suppose is better than Poland because of geographical balance. But please explain why Iroquis, Hittites, Mitanni, Brazilians or Austrians more deserve to be included in Civ? E.g. Austrians were power in the past. Just like the Poland.
Öjevind Lång
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2005
- Messages
- 2,371
"Many others" or not, Poland has never been a seminal power in Europe or the world.
Well, there was also the period when you were ruled by the Lithuanians and the period when you were ruled by German kings from Saxony. Furthermore, there were, as you know, three partitions of Poland, and during the period before the last one, the country was pretty rudimentary. There is also, of course, the period from 1945 to 1989 when Poland was a vassal of the Soviet Union. As for the "lies" and so on, I think I'll stay away from the flame bait. Though I must respond to that fellow-countryman of yours that notwithstanding the tolerance of Kazimierz the Great, Poland has not traditionally been a "country of tolerance"; it has been a deeply anti-Semitic and xenophobic country, with lots of pogroms and massacres of other minorities, and although the Jews are all gone from Poland, the anti-Semitism and xenophobia are not. Does the name Kielce tell you anything?
Half of those people are completely unknown outside Poland except among certain people with specialist knowledge. And how many have read Sienkiewicz or Reymont? I have read Sienkiewicz, but that's because I'm old and have read a lot. Szymborska? No one has read her stuff, and the Swedish Academy of Letters is notorious for giving the Nobel Prize to obscure writers. (Mind you, I accept your inclusion of Czeslaw Milosz, even though he became an American citizen many years ago, and of Joseph Conrad, even though he became a British citizen and wrote his books in English. You could also have added the Marxist philosopher Leszek Kolakowski, who is indeed quite famous in certain circles.) Furthermore, when you include people with "Polish roots", that is a sign of desperation. Ancestry does not a nationality make. Edvard Grieg was a Norwegian, not a Scot, despite his father's family being originally from Scotland. Charles Lindbergh was an American, not a Swede, despite his Swedish immigrant parents. Guillaume Apollinaire was French, despite his Italian and Polish ancestry. And so on.
The Iroquois were the founders of an incipient nation (unfortunately nipped in the bud by the European settlers), which is why they were included in Civ III. That is to say, they were included in an attempt to somewhat temper the inevitable Eurocentrism of a game produced in a country with European roots. The Hittites discovered the art of tempering steel and were a great power in the Middle East for centuries, which is why they were included in Civ III. Mitanni was another great power in the Middle East in antiquity. Brazil is the biggest nation in Latin America, an emerging great power and a country with an extremely interesting history. I'd love to see their Bandeiras as a unique unit. As for Austria, you, as a Pole, should know why the Habsburg monarchy, a great power for many centuries (from the Middle Ages until 1918!), deserves a place in the game.
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
Do yourself a favor and get a good history book and read it. You really do need it. I still would not put POL in civ before all the ancient, real civilizations are in the game, though.
Lonpone
Chieftain
I think Poland would make a great addition to the CiV games. Why, what other land was raided by Mongols and Germans!? Seriously, people argue against Poland, but wouldn't their appearance in a game spark some interest and respect for our friends to the east? As an American, I do hereby speak for every one of my countrymen (who are not speaking) that in the next game, Britain may be taken out as a playable Civ and Poland put in it's place.
And yes, I signed the petition.
And yes, I signed the petition.
Mr. Civtastic
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2006
- Messages
- 488
...
Ok, im done laughing.
Eskel
Warlord
About lies:Öjevind Lång;4812756 said:
Polish-Lithuanian area:
1410-1686 - 1115000 sq km, population 11 mlns (25% of whole european population), both largest in Europe. If you wont admit that we were major european power that time, it means you are fact-proof
1686-1773 - 733500 sq km, area third largest in Europe, but from 1706 Poland wasnt power anymore - it is the Partition period you mentioned, time of extreme weakness after lost in Nortern War
Do you pretend to not know, that those Lithuanians were married into Polish king bloodline and their reign was sanctioned by free will of Polish people, and those "German kings" were elected as rulers by polish noblemen?
Well, of course it was time of dependancy. But even if you add this period and even add the whole XVIIIcnt, you still wont get the majority you talked about.
Furthermore, I would say that in the same time the half of Europe that wasnt Soviet Union satellite, was surely USA protectorate.
I wonder what you have proof for your support; I guess that in your opinion 4/5 of all Jews in the world were living in the Polish territory just because they were constantly prosecuted here for ages.
For your information, Polish Jews had through the entire period of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth autonomy and freedom they couldnt find elsewhere in the world. After the Partition in 1772 Austrians and Prussians immediately expelled Jews to the rest of Poland, and Russians limited their freedom of movement and residence.
About tolerance: there was no religious turmoil nor civil war in Poland after publication of Luther's postulates, opposite to most of other European countries. Furthermore, in 1573 Warsaw confederation enacted laws that guaranteed freedom of faith. In Polish borders were living catholics, unites, orthodox, muslims, lutherans, calvins, aryans and hussites. There was no burning stakes, witch-hunting, inquisition. The only but very famous exception before Partition was Thorner Blutblad in 1724, the execution of 17 lutherans accused of rebellion and sentenced to death.
Having an opinion of xenophobe and anti-Semite isnt equal with being one. I dare say we have awful opinion because we were extraordinarily tolerant for Jews. Thats why lot of them lived here, but because of that, there is now lot of them complaining about inconveniences they experienced, which are typically much more distressing that those unmet.
Furthermore, most of Jews who could speak of Polish good, were murdered by German Nazis during Holocaust . There were at least killed 2,9mln of them who lived in Poland before WWII and felt comfortable enough here to stay and not emigrate - in oposition to about 500,000 who left Poland in twenties of XX cnt, mainly because of poverty.
I cannot deny, that there were many acts of anti-Semitism in Poland during XX cnt. Though they were mainly verbal not factual, there were such nasty accidents like pogrom in Kielce you mentioned (42 victims) or Jedwabne (about 300 victims), and some more. However scale of those homicides compared to violence against Jews in other European countries in the first half of XXcnt, surely shouldnt place us in the position of main european anti-Semite. But I guess it is very comfortable to greater part of other Europeans.
Please note as well, that Polish are most numerous national group amongst Chasidei Umot Ha-olam (Righteous Among the Nations), despite all household members were punished by death if a hidden Jew was found in their house. This was the most severe legislation in German-Nazi occupied Europe.
Can you give examples of "lot of massacres against other minorities"?
Can you post here any statistics that will undoubtedly prove we are more xenophobic than e.g. Germans, French, Russian or Swedish?
If not, you are throwing false accusations and racist propaganda.
For me, you seem a strongly prejudiced polonophobe.
But their heritage IS significant. If you think that list is short, and our cultural influenca insignificant, please show me 30 countries that have longer list of internationally well known and recognizable great people, of course with achievements comparable to those of Copernicus, Funk, Czochralski, Sklodovska-Curie, Lukasiewicz, Chopin, Walesa, John Paul II.
I agree.
Well, you shocked me, really. To be an incipient nation is enough to be acceredited as influent and worth placing in game, being largest European country once - not.
Lukasiewicz discovered process of refinig oil. Polish were great power in the East Europe (if not in the whole Europe) in the Middle Ages. Draw. At least.
This one I can agree.
The same can be spoken of Poland. With the only difference we were power sooner, they - later, so better remebered.
Eskel
Warlord
I dont think we are particularly important nation, really. Just mediocre, that with a bit of luck could make for the place in the last 10 of top 40. Thats why, while with 2nd exp pack we will have almost 40 civs, I would like to see Poland in game.
BTW. Good joke with that Britain.
ohcrapitsnico
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,267
Honestly I would like to see Poland in the game. That said I have my doubts they will since 1, theres already too many european civs,2, there are much more civs that would go first and I don't thing Firaxis is going to jam pack with 40 or more civs, last even though Poland has had its times as a powerful nation, they didn't have a serious enough influence on others mostly local influence and not that many people put poland on their list of great civs or civs, no offense, I think they were great I'm just speaking about people in general that buy this game. Plus at least here in America I bet they don't teach anything about Polish history in school in most situations.
12345
the what
the what
MoonBase
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 105
The Jagiellon dynasty. Rulers of the Polish/Lithuanian Empire. Controlled nearly the whole of Eastern Europe, from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Turned the Teutonic Knights into obdient vassals. Cowed the princes of Muscovy, the Prussian warlords, the Scandanavians, the Hungarians. The source of the mystique of the Polack that Prince Fortinbras talked about in awed tones in Hamlet. The Plantagenets of their day, only with more power.
Never heard of them? Too bad for you, you're missing out on some neat history.
I think Poland would be a fun addition, both because there's some interesting and impressive history and just because I'd enjoy making it convert to Judaism. But if Europe is really underrepresented in the game, Austria is more imperial.
Agreed, plus Vienna was one of the capitals of Europe, it's fall would have been a huge loss to Europe and gain to the Turks.
Agreed, plus Vienna was one of the capitals of Europe, it's fall would have been a huge loss to Europe and gain to the Turks.
First on the list of deserving Civs left out of the game is definitely the Byzantine Empire. Followed by the Babylonians. Poland may be somewhere in the top 15, but you can only have so many civilizations and there are other more deserving ones ahead of them.
I could do all that stuff easily
Similar threads
