Prestidigitator
Prince
Well you misunderstood me buddy.
"Epic" civs do not necessarily have to be ancient.
Petition to add Poland
- Thread starter LDeska
- Start date
"Epic" civs do not necessarily have to be ancient.
Tavenier
King
Not to mention all the inventions/innovations from Holland. Microscope, modern law (Hugo de Groot), stocks/shares (!!!!), and so on. And all the GP's from Holland. Rembrandt, Erasmus, Hugo de Groot, van Gogh, Abel Tasman, Coen, Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, Boerhave, Huygens, etc, etc.
Same goes for Portugal, although admittedly Portugal is more a colonize-only Civ. They were one of the most important countries in the colonizing era, but next to that not as much as Holland.
Tavenier
King
I wonder what impact on the world had Korea, Mali, Zulu, Wikings and Inca for example. Portugal I agree, but Netherlands? Had only some impact on Western Europe and Indonesia and on discovering casette and CD
p.s. more impact they have now as a country with legal drugs, paedophiles party and marriages of same sex couples
Some impact on Western Europe and Indonesia? Australia was originally named New Holland. Tasmania is named after the Dutch discoverer Abel Tasman. New Zealand is named after a Dutch province. New York was founded by the Dutch. Afrikaans is a Dutch language. Amsterdam was the first world trading centre. The United Eastindia Company invented stocks, and stocks rule the economical world today. Holland (or Dutch companies) ruled Surinam, parts of Brazil, Sri Lanka, parts of India, Taiwan, Indonesia, South Africa, other parts of Africa (coastal cities), parts of Namibia, Belgium, Luxembourg, New Amsterdam (New York) and still the Netherlands has six Caribean islands, including Curacao and Aruba. Poland didn't even existed in large parts of the modern age! And on top of all that, Holland is one of the founders of the European Union and the first president of the European Bank was Dutch!
Legal drugs are bad? And the incredible large amounts of alcoholists in Poland are good? There are only a few junkies and they live mostly in Rotterdam or Amsterdam. There are more drug addicts in a lot of other countries. Gee, do the legal drugs increase addictiveness? Nope.
Paedophile party? No, we don't have one. There were a few weirdo's who tried to start such a party, but in Holland you need 50.000 autographs from citizens to start a party. They didn't get those 50.000 by far. So they don't exist (as a party). In other words, let democracy take care of such problems. And this is another proof it works.
And same sex marriage? Is that a problem? Maybe for a backward bible-freak from a backward part of Europe, but not for modern nations like Holland or Canada and some states of the USA. And more countries in Europe, by the way. You still believe gays are ill? That it is a decease people need a cure for? You also believe the world is shaped a pancake? Come on, it is the 21st century. Wake up.
Relax
1) For sure Dutch didn't find Góra Kościuszki in Australia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kosciuszko - until today hardest word to pronounce for Australians
Courland (duchy under control of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) had oversea colonies such as Trynidad, Gambia
So don't be too pround of those colonies and discoveres, especially when Holland do not posses them right now.
2) Where did You heard about "large amounts of alcoholists in Poland"?
Here is the link to WHO report about alcoholism:
http://www.who.int/entity/substance_abuse/publications/global_status_report_2004_overview.pdf
Try to find Poland there in top rated drinking countries.
If you want to read more, You will find that in Poland there are 19,0% abstainers among the adult population, comparing to Holland's 15,8%
Average consuption pure alcohol per capita in Poland (in litres): 8,68; The Netherlands: 9,74
So where did you heard that?
3) What is scarying about paedophile party? Not that they didn't succeed, but that - they even have such ideas. Here in Poland, nobody is proud to be a paedophile and is rather silent to not get accused or recognised. But so called "liberty", allow them to fight for their rights in Holland. Scarying!
And I would not trust democracy to take care about such things - democracy led Hitler into power!
4) I have nothing against homosexualists, I have friends who love different. I do also feel that is the kind of natural behavior. Anyway as a member of backward part of Europe, I'm not modern enough to say that we should care more about homosexual couples than heterosexual. I just don't get the whole noise about that. If they want to be together, do not need an official permission and media focus!
Honestly Zulus are ridiculous as a Civ, but they have the coolness factor, which is really all that counts. Also of course there's the matter of Africa being grossly underrepresented, and the Zulus were an African group that people have actually heard of, unlike real civs like Ethiopia and the Berbers which are important and impressive but obscure.
I disagree, although I understand your feeling. In a free country everyone should be able to advocate their sick stupid ideas. I personally think it's a great idea to invite all the people who think pedophilia is ok to announce their views, that way I can avoid them.
But they do need the right to inherit property, the right to make medical decisions for eachother if the other is in a coma, the right to adopt children, etc. edit: I forgot the most important material thing, Health Insurance!
It's a matter of divide and rule. In America after the abolition of slavery, blacks and poor white started working together against the rich (the early Progressive movement). So the rich needed to divide them by convincing the poor whites that the blacks were the reason they were poor.
Why then in most civilized countries propagation of rasism, nazism etc. is forbiden? Or maybe it is forbiden only in Poland
I feel that there are some common ideas of our major human community which can be named as ok or not ok. I can understand that culture is relative, but I would like to believe that some our huministic achievements are constant.
We cannot kill other people, must not enslave them etc.
I also do feel that pedophilia cannot be accepted and should be forbiden to not let people think that to be a pedophile or a nazi is similar be a rock&roll guy. They should not even start to form a community.
Tavenier
King
Relax
1) For sure Dutch didn't find Góra Kościuszki in Australia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kosciuszko - until today hardest word to pronounce for Australians
Courland (duchy under control of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) had oversea colonies such as Trynidad, Gambia
So don't be too pround of those colonies and discoveres, especially when Holland do not posses them right now.
Yes, Trinidad is almost as important as founding New York or discovering Australia and New Zealand
Nope, Holland does not posses colonies right now, except for 6 tropical islands. Britain doesn't have India anymore and Poland doesn't have Lithuania anymore. What's your point?
2) Where did You heard about "large amounts of alcoholists in Poland"?
Here is the link to WHO report about alcoholism:
http://www.who.int/entity/substance_abuse/publications/global_status_report_2004_overview.pdf
Try to find Poland there in top rated drinking countries.
If you want to read more, You will find that in Poland there are 19,0% abstainers among the adult population, comparing to Holland's 15,8%
Average consuption pure alcohol per capita in Poland (in litres): 8,68; The Netherlands: 9,74
So where did you heard that?
My former colleague lives in Poland. Cheap labour helped him to build a villa. He told me half of the time workers didn't show up or showed up drunk. And Polish people working here are seen everyday filling their supermarket-carry's full of cheap beer. Why should (soft drugs be illegal and alcohol legal?
3) What is scarying about paedophile party? Not that they didn't succeed, but that - they even have such ideas. Here in Poland, nobody is proud to be a paedophile and is rather silent to not get accused or recognised. But so called "liberty", allow them to fight for their rights in Holland. Scarying!
And I would not trust democracy to take care about such things - democracy led Hitler into power!
So you rather have people ignoring it: "Well, I never hear about it, so then it is ok", and have drama's like in Austria or Belgium then a few weirdos wanting to start a political party? And voting for Hitler in the '30's in Germany is quite a different story. What is it with people that as soon as they don't know anything to say they throw in Hitler, because you are supposed to always be silent and careful when it comes to him. Nobody wants to argue a statement about Hitler, in fear of being called a fascist. Too cheap, my friend.
4) I have nothing against homosexualists, I have friends who love different. I do also feel that is the kind of natural behavior. Anyway as a member of backward part of Europe, I'm not modern enough to say that we should care more about homosexual couples than heterosexual. I just don't get the whole noise about that. If they want to be together, do not need an official permission and media focus!
So in your opinion marriage could be abolished alltogether. If you have nothing against same sex marriages and you have gay/lesbian friends, then why use the Dutch freedom for homosexuals as an arguement against Holland? That's like me being a backward alcohol abuser verbally attacking you.
Why then in most civilized countries propagation of rasism, nazism etc. is forbiden? Or maybe it is forbiden only in Poland
You are right that it is forbidden to advocate these stupid things in many places. Much as I would love to see these beliefs disappear, I do not think it's a good idea to ban them (as ideas, obviously when someone starts acting on them it's a matter of law). In much of Europe, it is illegal to deny the Holocaust. I understand and appreciate the motivations behind that, but it makes it look like we are afraid of Holocaust deniers, as if they had some truth instead of just hurtful lies. In America, freedom of speech is more absolute, and in our history that has been a good thing. Abolitionists, the people who wanted to end slavery, started out as a very unpopular group. People hated them and feared them, some because they wanted to protect slavery and some because they didn't want a fight to break out. But they had freedom of speech (although it was violated at times), and so they could preach their unpopular, radical ideas, until they won enough 'hearts and minds' to drive the North to oppose slavery in enough ways that the South went to war.
Have maybe read Orwell's "1984"?
The common truth is what is written. How do we know about history? We know it from written materials. Free speech gives the possibility to falsify the truth.
I can agree that You can disagree that nazism is something ok, but are You same confident if your children will be the same? Or grandchildren?
Especially if will know first some nazi point of view. Or even when will be trying to compare arguments for nazism or against?
Maybe next generation of Iran, will be strongly convinced that holocaust didn't take place? Unfortunetly for truth we have to fight everyday.
The common truth is what is written. How do we know about history? We know it from written materials. Free speech gives the possibility to falsify the truth.
I can agree that You can disagree that nazism is something ok, but are You same confident if your children will be the same? Or grandchildren?
Especially if will know first some nazi point of view. Or even when will be trying to compare arguments for nazism or against?
Maybe next generation of Iran, will be strongly convinced that holocaust didn't take place? Unfortunetly for truth we have to fight everyday.
Ah, but in Iran it will be the people who say the Holocaust occured who will be silenced and punished. I don't trust us in the masses to get history right, but I trust the government even less to tell us what it is acceptable to think. After all, in Orwell's 1984 it is the government's version of history that is false and constantly being changed, and the heroes are the people who fight against this.
Good point!
But anyway some well known (however is sounds) things should be forbiden.
Do free speech allow people to insult others? No. Free spech also do not justify lies - newspapers for example can be sued if they are writting lies - even in US and especially in US. What would you do if CNN accuse you about raping 14 girls and one cow in Texas during your last holidays for example
? Would you leave things as it would be or not?Good point!
But anyway some well known (however is sounds) things should be forbiden.
Do free speech allow people to insult others? No. Free spech also do not justify lies - newspapers for example can be sued if they are writting lies - even in US and especially in US. What would you do if CNN accuse you about raping 14 girls and one cow in Texas during your last holidays for example
This is true. You're also not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theatre. It's a difficult and blurry line between freedom and responsibility.
Eskel
Warlord
Can I ask for sth?
C'mon, people, just calm down! There is not any need to insult each other!
That applies to you, Vertico - you won't help our cause if you continue attacking people all around here, and both to you, Tavenier.
Veritco didnt criticize Netherland's cultural achievements.
Nevertheless, i dont like the way he put accents as well.
It is quite obvious for me that gay's marriages etc. are not whole nor most important part of Netherland's contribution to the world's cultural heritage. However, whether for good or for bad (as they are social experiments and nobody knows where they will turn out in future), it is also important contribution, and surely puts Netherland's democracy in good light.
I can agree that Netherlands impact on world's history was bigger then Poland's because of economical strength and colonization - even if it is not recognized as economical nor colonizing power like Britain or pioneer like Potugal or Spain. Though , I cannot agree what you have written about Poland.
In particular, Tavenier:
"Poland didn't even existed in large parts of the modern age" - well, it is true, but is quite unuseful and unfair as argument because it can be said about Netherlands as well. Was Holland established in 966 a.m. and maintained independence till today throughout this entire period? What I have been taught in school - no. Such principle applies as well to most european countries, including France, Spain, Italy and even Germany and Austria. Please do not contest our independence nor heritage just because last period of depression.
"And the incredible large amounts of alcoholists in Poland are good?" - it is really funny one, as you copied here typical racist stereotype about Polish, while the last reports on alcohol consumption points that we are far below EU's average. Even if you take into consideration "unrecorded consumption", arbitrary rated by some euro bureaucrats at over 50% (some guys wont ever belive that any civilization here exists - such rate is pure nonsense, as 4 yrs ago excise tax on alcoholic drinks was lowered and black market almost completely vanished), we still are average. We do not have much ppl classified to be addicted, however culturally-dependant binge-drinking style is still popular and supports stereotype you have used. What is more interesting, there is large group of abstainers, and abusers.
"Maybe for a backward bible-freak from a backward part of Europe" - you have democracy, and we have democracy - your ppl voted for gays marriages, our's not. It is just a matter of choice, and I wouldnt like to see ppl forced to do sth they dont want. I guess you dont like Netherlands be named paedophiles or junk paradise just because of some, as you written, "weirdo's", so please notice we dont like Poland be called "backward part of Europe" just because of some ppl beliefs or because you lose your temper. I am sure you can understand this easily.
C'mon, people, just calm down! There is not any need to insult each other!
That applies to you, Vertico - you won't help our cause if you continue attacking people all around here, and both to you, Tavenier.
Veritco didnt criticize Netherland's cultural achievements.
Nevertheless, i dont like the way he put accents as well.
It is quite obvious for me that gay's marriages etc. are not whole nor most important part of Netherland's contribution to the world's cultural heritage. However, whether for good or for bad (as they are social experiments and nobody knows where they will turn out in future), it is also important contribution, and surely puts Netherland's democracy in good light.
I can agree that Netherlands impact on world's history was bigger then Poland's because of economical strength and colonization - even if it is not recognized as economical nor colonizing power like Britain or pioneer like Potugal or Spain. Though , I cannot agree what you have written about Poland.
In particular, Tavenier:
"Poland didn't even existed in large parts of the modern age" - well, it is true, but is quite unuseful and unfair as argument because it can be said about Netherlands as well. Was Holland established in 966 a.m. and maintained independence till today throughout this entire period? What I have been taught in school - no. Such principle applies as well to most european countries, including France, Spain, Italy and even Germany and Austria. Please do not contest our independence nor heritage just because last period of depression.
"And the incredible large amounts of alcoholists in Poland are good?" - it is really funny one, as you copied here typical racist stereotype about Polish, while the last reports on alcohol consumption points that we are far below EU's average. Even if you take into consideration "unrecorded consumption", arbitrary rated by some euro bureaucrats at over 50% (some guys wont ever belive that any civilization here exists - such rate is pure nonsense, as 4 yrs ago excise tax on alcoholic drinks was lowered and black market almost completely vanished), we still are average. We do not have much ppl classified to be addicted, however culturally-dependant binge-drinking style is still popular and supports stereotype you have used. What is more interesting, there is large group of abstainers, and abusers.
"Maybe for a backward bible-freak from a backward part of Europe" - you have democracy, and we have democracy - your ppl voted for gays marriages, our's not. It is just a matter of choice, and I wouldnt like to see ppl forced to do sth they dont want. I guess you dont like Netherlands be named paedophiles or junk paradise just because of some, as you written, "weirdo's", so please notice we dont like Poland be called "backward part of Europe" just because of some ppl beliefs or because you lose your temper. I am sure you can understand this easily.
Tavenier
King
I have to have 10 characters..... The ones I put in the quote don't count.
EDIT: Of course I respect the outcome of democratic decisions. But if they are made with superstitious writings (bible) in mind then I do have a problem with it. If you vote democratically for a law that let's you try to declare Lech Walensa holy, or something, be my guest. You don't hurt anyone with that. But to decide that people who are different then the majority, namely homosexual, and decide for them that everybody has the privilige and right to marry the one he or she loves, except for them is really intolerable for me. What harm is done if two men live together and marry? Do you lose money over it? Does it hurt your family? Will there be wars? No. So some backward biblefreaks say no to it and other innocent people will have to live with that knowledge which robs them of a part of their freedom.
I see nothing offensive here. There is neither no attack here nor personal opinion. I just pointed this impact, whether positive or negative, in the world and those issues are globally disscused.
So, please don't make me abuser or atacker when it were You to start to express your personal opinions here. Hough!
Tavenier
King
Well, you know yourself that you were offensive here. Admit it. And if not, saying that a couple of peadophiles that wanted a political party (which did not succeed) is a greater Dutch impact on the world then founding the economically most important city of the world and largest city of the most powerful nation on earth says something about your lack of knowledge, perhaps? Or at least you are very offensive against New Yorkers.
Prestidigitator
Prince
Another misunderstanding... I thought you meant how OLD or ancient they were before now. I was perhaps mislead by the American date (200 yrs. before now), and thought you meant the Aztecs were 200 years before now
. end of discussion.Similar threads
