PH05: THe Honorable Emperor Spaceman

[Zophos]

Zophos ~ I kinda think getting the worboat out first to grow while we build may be better...then we can use the increased food and the 2nd citizen to get the worker out quicker. You're the number cruncher...uh...crunch I'm not used to Normal so I'm not sure of exact build times...(at least that's my excuse for not crunching)

It's a tradeoff, as far as I can tell. If you go WB first, you'll grow faster. If you go worker first, you have more worker turns to do stuff (e.g. chop out a Settler). But, if you do some careful MMing, you tech at about the same pace, oddly enough.

I actually world-buildered up a copy of what I could see from the start screenshot to test some theories, and I was surprised to find that I got Mining->BW->Wheel->Pottery at 2640 BC, with either method (and no whipping). The WB-first strategy had me at size 4, +3 food, 19 bpt, 5 hpt, and the worker had built the gold mine, and was just starting the rice. The worker-first strategy had me at size 3, +4 food, 18 bpt, 4 hpt, and the worker had built the mine, connected the gold (2 roads), and farmed the rice, and was ready to start building cottages. If you ignore the rice and the roads, the worker had about 10 extra turns, enough time to put 2 chops into a Settler or Stonehenge.

So, like I said, it's a tradeoff. Would you rather have an extra pop-point, or 10 worker turns? That's what makes this game fun. I'll also point out that, once you can slap a Granary into Washington, that extra pop-point represents about 3 turns of growth

Possible alternative plan (I've used this a couple times on Monarch with coastal resources):
Build Work Boat while researching towards Bronze Working. Work the clams during pop 1 (the WB won't be finished by the time you get to size 2, but you tech faster). Pop 2, work clams + a forest, or clams + floodplain. Try to time it so BW and WB finish at the same time, usually you'll be pop 3 by then. Revolt to BW, WHIP the worker as soon as you can, then we can chop-whip a settler (1 pop whipped on each). We have the food to grow fast, and the happiness to whip repeatedly. We end up with a size 1 city that'll grow in about 4-5 turns, a worker, and a settler. (After the chop, the worker can hook up the gold, then the rice.)

I think you'll find that working the floodplains (rather than the unimproved clams) actually wins, if you're going workboat-first. Working the FP lets you grow in 8 turns (versus 11 for the clams), and you wind up able to build the worker outright as fast as you can whip it in your scenario, without teching noticeably slower (I got Mining->BW->Wheel in exactly the same number of turns, though probably with slightly less overflow).

Anyone who wants to check me, or test their own theories, feel free to use this 4000 BC savefile, which I created as noted above. Same settings as Pholk's start, except I disabled barbs and all AIs but 1 (Gandhi), so I could concentrate on builderish things, and I world-buildered in all the stuff I could see in Pholk's screenshot, except the goody hut.

Of course, Pholk's going to play tonight and make this all moot. Right, Pholk? Gonna play tonight?

 

[pholkhero]

yeah i was just thinking...wow, 21 posts and no turns yet! I will indeed be playing tonight and will decide then. However, Mining > BW seems assured! I think now you've convinced me and i'm leaning towards Worker First.

 

[Zophos]

yeah i was just thinking...wow, 21 posts and no turns yet! I will indeed be playing tonight and will decide then. However, Mining > BW seems assured! I think now you've convinced me and i'm leaning towards Worker First.

Heh...and I'd convinced myself that it was a wash. Ah, well. I await your turns with scarcely-concealed glee!

 

[Ozbenno]

I still favour the work boat over the worker. Basically, as we're going mining - BW the worker will only be able to mine the hill, which we can't work because we don't have the food to support. If we build the work boat, we can get a food source, whip the worker and then work the gold mine!

Disclaimer Ozbenno's rantings are not backed up with any mathematical analysis or test data. They are not accredited with any Civ IV organisations. Players follows at their own risk.

 

[Zophos]

I still favour the work boat over the worker. Basically, as we're going mining - BW the worker will only be able to mine the hill, which we can't work because we don't have the food to support. If we build the work boat, we can get a food source, whip the worker and then work the gold mine!

Yeah...to make it work, you actually have to send the worker to the mine first, then work the mine (and stagnate for a few more turns) to crank out the workboat really fast (and pick up a fair number of beakers), then farm the rice and work it and the clams to grow really fast to size 3. It's a lot more MM to gain a few worker turns, so I kinda expect Pholk to go for workboat-first, as orignally advertised.

 

[pholkhero]

Okay, so i founded on the spot, and started on a worker.

Huh? That's not the start i posted yesterday?? Well, uh...ya see...remember how i said that i started the game once with the wrong settings. Ha, yeah, well, I sorta did that again Only this time, it was set to Marathon speed...so, i kinda reloaded Hope you don't mind [hey, it wouldn't be a pholk game if i didn't phuck it up ]

So, w/that in mind, i also started on Animal Husbandry first, instead of Mining since the sheep would give us an extra commerce once pastured.

So, ON WITH THE GAME!! [see, i learn from my president. When wrong, talk louder ]

A few turns later, as I was exploring to our SE, I met a friendly scout:

okay, well, at least we know we'll be in one war.

AH comes in, and I head for Mining now. It'll be due in 8 ~ just like my set!

Than, in 3360:

That same turn, our Warrior has been surrounded:

LIons and wolves and . . . well, just lions and wolves.

Lucky for our fledling Honorable Empire, this one was blessed with Super-Strength:

I promoted him to Wood I and set him to heal.

Once the worker was done, too, i set to build another Warrior to explore to the West in the direction Brennus came from.

On my last turn, Minng comes due, our warrior is healed and the worker has finished pasturizing the Sheep. Here's an overview shot of what we know of the world so far:

Okay, so all the prior strat-talk is right out the window. Should be fun, no?

Pholk > just played
Zophos > UP NOW
Ozbenno > on deck
RoboKai >
RemConius >
Xerol >

I didn't screw anything else up, I swear

 

[Ozbenno]

I did the same thing (almost) last night in rolling a start for OB-01, I was posting three starts for the group to choose and actually overwrote the one everyone wanted . So when I started up, it was a completely different start than originally shown.

Are there fish in the BFC? It appears there are in the resource map you posted last but not in the city screen.

I'm assuming BW is the next tech still?

I'd whack out a settler or work boat (depending on fish) after next warrior.

 

[Zophos]

Huh? That's not the start i posted yesterday?? Well, uh...ya see...remember how i said that i started the game once with the wrong settings. Ha, yeah, well, I sorta did that again Only this time, it was set to Marathon speed...so, i kinda reloaded Hope you don't mind [hey, it wouldn't be a pholk game if i didn't phuck it up ]

Damn.

Just....damn.

I didn't screw anything else up, I swear

Well...you did post the 4000BC save from the Marathon game. You know, the one we THOUGHT we were playing for the last 20-odd posts. Does that count?

I can't wait to see what happens next.

 

[remconius]

So much for a good discussion about starting strats, .

Should we take some time to discuss the new plans?

I think we do need to settle quite fast. To not get surrounded by AI. We need 3-4 cities to be able to defend ourselves.

To deal with the "we cannot declare dilemma" we should have some good production cities, but few units, partial buils would be excellent. To make us look oversize, and make Tokugawa declare. Then we finish prebuilds, start military production and take over Tokugawa's REX efforts.

I dont think the Oracle is worth it, but let's prepare for a axemen/swordsmen retalliation.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Aye, count me in for the ultra violence and a bit of the old in-out in-out PHSG style. Warning: my first SG was SGOTM2, so a bit noobish in that sense, but have a fair bit of CiV xp.

Usually I'd go workboat first, and then the whip plan sounds great, but with 2 floods/ worker, we could go either way. Luckily we have a number cruncher like xerol, so I don't have to give myself a headache. I'll state the obvious and say that goldmine and speeded research is a priority, but will reserve judgement on future plans until we've scouted... but a prod'n city is a must.

OK, so info content was minimal there.... love the start, tech que looks good... bring it!

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

Pholk, you're my hero. See, most of you don't know Pholk the way I do. What you see as imbecilic faux pas is truly just a brilliant strategy to get the rest of you off your guard to make him look better by contrast. Keep it up, oh sly one. Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

 

[pholkhero]

man, how did rex figure me out? Am i that obvious?!? Soooo...i guess we all have to wait for me to get home tonight to post the correct save.

here's to a GREAT start

that fish IS in the BFC, but i didn't have the Resource Icons on so those fish must be underwater at the time of the screenshot ~ there are 3 food resources there, several FPs, a plains hill and 3 grass ones ~ not too bad. Commerce, production ~ even gpf

[ed. note: i've got to say that i LOVE the fact that i posted the wrong save file named "I didn't Screw anything else up"]

 

[Sweetacshon]

Auspicious start, Pholk!

The pseudo underweight/ partial build idea for getting Toku fired up is good (As if he needs any excuses!).

 

[Meatbuster]

So where's the actual save now so we can continue, please?

 

[pholkhero]

Soooo...i guess we all have to wait for me to get home tonight to post the correct save.

sorry. 4 more hrs to go

 

[pholkhero]

tRY This.

a;lfjdsa;lfjl';

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

tRY This.

a;lfjdsa;lfjl';

So, if you screw up the post, the save's bound to be right? Way to reverse-psychology yourself there, buddy.

 

[Zophos]

A full moon hung glowing in the east, casting an argent glow over the shoreline, its rays outlining the solitary watcher who stood motionless, silently gazing across the water. The rustle of the leaves merged with and the faint, faraway creaking of the beached fishing boats as the waves softly foamed around their hulls.

After a time, a shadow detached from the trees and slipped down to the cold, starlit sands. "George?"

"Yes, Martha?" The watcher's voice is distant, distracted.

"Come back to bed."

"Hmm?" Finally, he turns to face her, smiling faintly. "I'm sorry, my dear. Did I wake you?"

"No. I just noticed that you were gone. Can't sleep again?"

His eyes drift back outward, and a stray breeze blows a lock of white hair across his face. He pushes it back. "No." He takes a deep breath, and blows it out explosively. "I had the dream again."

"The dream?"

"The dream I had the night before we settled the People here." He pauses, still gazing outward. "It was so vivid. I stood upon the shore, facing south, and saw the river pouring into shallows teeming with clams. The land was lush and green, and we found rice and some sort of long, yellow fruit I could not name. When I turned, I saw distant hills covered in gold." Another pause. "It was so real. I began to plan the settlement - where we should build, how to lay out the farms, which trees to begin cutting for the boats. I had just worked it all out when I woke up, and realized that all my plans were useless."

She reached out a hand, and touched his cheek. He glanced down at her. Her voice was a whisper. "It was just a dream, dear. Come get some sleep. Our true lands are bountiful, too, and we still have much work to do for the People."

"I know." He sighs again. "I know. Go back to bed. I'll be along soon. I just want to watch the stars for a few more minutes."

"All right. But join me soon." She touches his cheek again, softly, then slips quietly back toward the sleeping huts, leaving the tall, lonely figure gazing across the water at the twinkling stars.

---

Got it. It even looks like the right save this time.

 

[Zophos]

Ok...less prose, more turns. I get it.

Checking over the inherited turn, I see we've started Bronze Working and another Warrior. Worker is headed to the wheat to farm it up. Sounds good to me. Hit Enter.

I won't do turn-by-turn reports this early. Just highlights follow

3080 BC - Buddhism FIADL. We also meet a cute little puppy in the woods:



IBT, we find out that the puppy likes to play a bit rough. Doesn't break the skin, though.

3040 BC - Hinduism FIADL. We finish our second Warrior and start a Workboat. Oh, and we meet Man with Pointy Helmet:



Biz has got a unit wandering around near Tokugawa's borders, which we just found in the east. As you'll see, Tokugawa has a fabulous second city site (gold, stone, and fish), and will cut us off from anything farther to the east.

3000 BC - Brennus adopts Hinduism. That answers one question. We also finish our farm on the wheat, and we're at +6 food (!).

2760 BC - Brennus wants to play Deal or No Deal:



Yay. He's got Writing already. Can he read with his eyes shut? I take the O/B deal for the future diplo bonus.

We also finish our workboat and start another Warrior. We need an escort for a Settler soon.

2720 BC - Biz adopts Slavery. We'll have Bronze in a couple of turns, so I guess that's OK.

2640 BC - The good news: We figure out what Copper looks like.



The bad news: We don't have any. In fact, we can't see any on the map anywhere.

On the other hand, we have horses to the west. Can't tell yet if there's a decent city site that catches them - still exploring. I start research on the Wheel, to get chariots and head toward Pottery.

We also finish a third Warrior this turn and start a Settler, due in 7. All that food is doing us a lot of good - There's no real point in chopping the Settler, since we're going to hit the happy cap very soon. In fact, since I'm sending the third Warrior to bust fog ahead of this new Settler (heading west to the horses), we're AT the happy cap until we get a garrison in Washington.

2600 BC - 15 turns done already? Ok...here's where we stand:

The capitol:


The worker is currently mining the grass hill east of town.

Our neighborhood:


The East:


Note that our Warrior is exploring past Tokugawa, and runs the risk of being cut off from home. Kyoto's next expansion won't quite do it, but if Osaka expands, he's stuck until we get Open Borders with the Happy Jap. There must be some land over there to explore, though, 'cuz that's where Bizmark came from.

As for our second city, I'd recommend a bit more exploring near the horses to see if any other resources appear. The third Warrior can stake out a spot and wait for the Settler to show up. On the way, it can check the north coast to see if a city would be worthwhile up there (to catch the clams):



I have not revolted into Slavery. Can't whip the Settler yet, but should be able to in a turn or two (and we'll grow back insanely fast at +7 food), so you may want to switch then.


Take it away, Oz!

 

[Ozbenno]

It seems I'm up just about everywhere but should be able to get to this later.