PH07: The School of Athens
- Thread starter pholkhero
- Start date
team, i wanted to say 
since i did the 
and listened to the 
and had some ![[offtopic]](/images/smilies/offtopic.gif "Offtopic [offtopic]")
Zophos
Greater Ape of Antics
So, in the spirit of 'too much discussion', I see two alternatives right now:
1) Build up some military in preparation for a war of expansion; or
2) Tech to Cavs and/or Grennies, THEN build up some military in preparation for a war of expansion.
It sounds like the group likes #2 better, and perhaps it is - if we can keep the tech pace up and pop a couple more GSs, we might even get a brief period of tech superiority for our war.
(Also, note that Grennies are probably our best choice, rather than Cavs. We can draft 'em, they fare well against next tech units (Rifles) if we fall behind again, and they don't require a resource we don't have. That said, I'd LOVE to have some Cavalry along for the ride, too.)
So, my revised plan is to concentrate on getting Constitution and some military techs knocked out or traded. I'll build science infrastructure where it makes sense, and go lighter on the units (unless our Power rating is so low that we look like a big target).
Any thoughts about our first victim? I'm thinking Asoka is way too big to tackle now. Our other near neighbors are Churchill and Shaka - would we rather face Agressive attacks or Protective defense first?
1) Build up some military in preparation for a war of expansion; or
2) Tech to Cavs and/or Grennies, THEN build up some military in preparation for a war of expansion.
It sounds like the group likes #2 better, and perhaps it is - if we can keep the tech pace up and pop a couple more GSs, we might even get a brief period of tech superiority for our war.
(Also, note that Grennies are probably our best choice, rather than Cavs. We can draft 'em, they fare well against next tech units (Rifles) if we fall behind again, and they don't require a resource we don't have. That said, I'd LOVE to have some Cavalry along for the ride, too.)
So, my revised plan is to concentrate on getting Constitution and some military techs knocked out or traded. I'll build science infrastructure where it makes sense, and go lighter on the units (unless our Power rating is so low that we look like a big target).
Any thoughts about our first victim? I'm thinking Asoka is way too big to tackle now. Our other near neighbors are Churchill and Shaka - would we rather face Agressive attacks or Protective defense first?
pigswill
fly (one day)
The weakest civ is Japan; its a long walk to get there but maybe we can pick up astronomy in trade (after bulbing pp and chemistry of course). It might be worth building a caravel or two because there are unexplored islands around; maybe we can expand peacefully (tho distance maintenance would be nasty).
Printing press is little use to us of course but it shouldbe a good trading chip; maybe to the point where we could switch to pp from constitution, bulb it, finish it off then trade for constitution cheaply; it could even end up quicker than researching it ourselves.
Printing press is little use to us of course but it shouldbe a good trading chip; maybe to the point where we could switch to pp from constitution, bulb it, finish it off then trade for constitution cheaply; it could even end up quicker than researching it ourselves.
I would vote for shaka only if we have a clear military tech advance at the time we get grens; Shaka use to have big armies
Protective wont help much against cannons too, so we can wait for that.
pholkhero
Deviant Mind
well, we all do. That's why we SGthank you. i need it.
fI think that's wise. Perhaps a trebuchet or six so we don't need to wait for much once Grennies come online. On a sidenote, in my SP games, I'm notorious for beelining to Mil Tradition, and then, lo and behold, no horses
The distance penalty is too big for japan, too, i think. I best bet is someone nearby, either Asoka or Shaka just for logistical reasons.
Your tech plan sounds good, but i'd be worried about giving away PP for only a small part of Constitution. In either case, go for Const, and most likely burn the next GS on PP, finish that up and trade it.
I, too, don't think Shaka should be the way to go. Though we may regret it later once we lose religious boni, and he backstabs us, but I think he's just too much, and has 2 religious allies. Asoka is pretty much all alone, AND we can pretty much control the battlefield due to the layout of the terrain down south.
England, too, would be nice to take one, but i'd be afraid of Shaka jumping in on that fight as well.
And, since I don't want to go back very far for the next roster posting:
Roster (15 turns)
Zophos >> UP NOW and has it
Pholkhero >> on deck and will have it soon
Codeman >> will have it, but probably not for a few more days
Lukep >> will have it eventually, but not holding his breath
Pigswill >> had it, saw the doctor, glad to be rid of it
* note, by it, i mean the save, not herpes in all cases, but Zophos
Zophos
Greater Ape of Antics
Ok...Fairly uneventful set. No wars, no demands, and we just peacefully teched and built a bit.
A few items of note:
We got TWO GSs in my set. The first about 3 turns in, the second on the inherited turn. I did not burn either one of them yet, since they both want to bulb PP, and I didn't see the point of bulbing part of it while still building Constitution. The only tech anyone had to trade when the first guy popped was DR.
As far as the trade screens go (from the end of the set), nobody has Constitution yet. The AIs mostly seemed to have gone after Economics, and I think Asoka got the GM from it.
Basically, we could trade for Econ and Optics. Not bad, but there are others I'd rather have available.
Tech rate is still decent, but not great. Constitution is due in 3. We could pull it in to 2 by running a massive deficit, but I don't see the need ATM.
The diplomatic situation has not changed much since the start of my set. Our BFF is still Bismark - and he's the best candidate if we intend to try for a DP or eventual PA. He's also #2 on the scoreboard right now, but still well behind Asoka.
You'll also note that we're going to land in some diplomatic hot water if we go after Shaka/Churchill - they love each other, and Bizzy-by is rather fond of 'em too. It's the whole shared-religion thing. So...could we bribe us up a Buddhists-go-after-Asoka war? Food for thought.
We also had a couple of visits from the neighbors:
Good thing I wasn't relying on those horses, eh?
We can probably get the Horses back (w/o the gpt), but I haven't done it yet. I did manage to get an extra happy out of Asoka, though - we're trading an extra Dye for some of his fur.
Most of our builds were infrastructure - Forges and Markets were queued for me. Here's where we stand at the end of the set:
I did get a Treb in Sparta, and started another. In between, I built a Theater - I seem to have forgotten a screenshot, but it may be possible to flip Churchill's city west of Sparta. It's currently down to 72%, and we could pile a TON of Artists in there if we chose to do so.
Since we have raised the happy cap by a couple, I de-stagnated Princeton to let it grow. We're now back to 4 Scientists there, but with a food surplus again.
My
for the day: I forgot to send any units scouting into Zulu/English territory to see what we are up against. We should still have time, though, before any army of ours is ready.
The Save
A few items of note:
We got TWO GSs in my set. The first about 3 turns in, the second on the inherited turn. I did not burn either one of them yet, since they both want to bulb PP, and I didn't see the point of bulbing part of it while still building Constitution. The only tech anyone had to trade when the first guy popped was DR.
As far as the trade screens go (from the end of the set), nobody has Constitution yet. The AIs mostly seemed to have gone after Economics, and I think Asoka got the GM from it.
Basically, we could trade for Econ and Optics. Not bad, but there are others I'd rather have available.
Tech rate is still decent, but not great. Constitution is due in 3. We could pull it in to 2 by running a massive deficit, but I don't see the need ATM.
The diplomatic situation has not changed much since the start of my set. Our BFF is still Bismark - and he's the best candidate if we intend to try for a DP or eventual PA. He's also #2 on the scoreboard right now, but still well behind Asoka.
You'll also note that we're going to land in some diplomatic hot water if we go after Shaka/Churchill - they love each other, and Bizzy-by is rather fond of 'em too. It's the whole shared-religion thing. So...could we bribe us up a Buddhists-go-after-Asoka war? Food for thought.
We also had a couple of visits from the neighbors:
Good thing I wasn't relying on those horses, eh?
Most of our builds were infrastructure - Forges and Markets were queued for me. Here's where we stand at the end of the set:
I did get a Treb in Sparta, and started another. In between, I built a Theater - I seem to have forgotten a screenshot, but it may be possible to flip Churchill's city west of Sparta. It's currently down to 72%, and we could pile a TON of Artists in there if we chose to do so.
Since we have raised the happy cap by a couple, I de-stagnated Princeton to let it grow. We're now back to 4 Scientists there, but with a food surplus again.
My
for the day: I forgot to send any units scouting into Zulu/English territory to see what we are up against. We should still have time, though, before any army of ours is ready.Spoiler Turn Log :
The Save
pholkhero
Deviant Mind
good turns. I think we could bulb PP for now, and reserach that next. It'll still be good trade fodder.
For the second one, I think we would be able to get Chemistry with it, no?
For the second one, I think we would be able to get Chemistry with it, no?
Zophos
Greater Ape of Antics
If so...that is absolutely what we should do with it.
Zophos
Greater Ape of Antics
Roster (15 turns)
Zophos >> just played
Pholkhero >> UP NOW
Codeman >> on deck
Lukep >>
Pigswill >>
pholkhero
Deviant Mind
Hah, i was going to post before I started playing, but didn't think I needed to since I'd be putting up a report soon ~ and here's this from the Viking warrior! 
sorry about the delay, all. I've been swamped with things to do and just haven't had time for Civ right now.
Turn 276/660 (1310 AD) [14-Jun-2007 13:55:35]
I first did a bit of MMing around the empire. I got Princeton's Uni in 2 turns instead of 4. Also, I noticed at Athens that were building a forge in a 7 hammer town?!? At sparta, I mm for a bit more hammers.
Heres Sorbone:
We should figure out what to specialize it as. I was thinking perhaps a commerce town, and run some merchants there instead of sci's (there's nothing there now).
I emph'ed Sci at Cambridge. We should figure out if that's what we want, too, so the next player can take that off. I also stuck in a Sci @ Dartmouth, too.
Before I hit enter, I actually MM Princeton again to get the Uni next turn.
Oh, and WOW!
Do we need a military!!
Turn 277/660 (1316 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:04:53]
The Uni finished then at Athens, so I decided to keep it focused on shields for now, and went w/some Maces. We can upgrade those to Grennies and at least they'll havea CR promos.
At Athens, the Forge finisehd and I went with a Uni
Turn 278/660 (1322 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:08:59]
Asoka came by:
but I told him to stick it!
Turn 279/660 (1328 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:09:34]
Constitution came in, and I went with Printing Press next for the bulbing. I also touched off the revolution:
We should also think about Mercantilism, too; were only getting 12 gp from foreign sources at this point.
Turn 280/660 (1334 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:10:54]
After the anarchy, we have 4 t's left on PP.
Turn 281/660 (1340 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:12:22]
Nothing
Turn 282/660 (1346 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:12:39]
The Harbor is done at Cambridge, and we start on a Uni there too. On a sidenote, the Colossus is still available!! Might be nice free commerce for all our sea cities
Turn 283/660 (1352 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:14:37]
I started building some Longbows for defense, too.
Turn 284/660 (1358 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:16:23]
Printing Press came in:
and we're onto Chemistry.
Five turns left after bulbing.
Turn 285/660 (1364 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:17:58]
nada
Turn 286/660 (1370 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:18:18]
Zip.
Turn 287/660 (1376 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:19:05]
I started alternating between offensive and defensive units at Princeton, Sparta, and Sorbone.
Turn 288/660 (1382 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:20:26]
Zero.
Turn 289/660 (1388 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:21:08]
Okay!
Next up:
I went around all of our cities to start running Merchants and 0% science so that we can upgrade our Grenadiers. The poor thing is that were only getting 100 gpt, and each axe needs about 300 gold for upgrading.
Turn 290/660 (1394 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:25:12]
Goose egg.
Turn 291/660 (1400 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:25:49]
Shaka came by, too, demanding our newfound military might:
at the risk of alienating him, I told him to take a hike. Hopefully that doesn't come back to bite us in the ass.
Okay, my 15 are up, and heres our army:
If this were an SP game, I'd go to war with the army we have (NOT the army I wish to have or have at a later date)
We can continue running 0% science and use our pillage money to upgrade to grennies, and hopefully maybe take 3 or 4 cities before we have to call it quits with him.
Eventually, should we eliminate him?? I think so, but let's talk ~
Roster (15 turns)
Zophos >>
Pholkhero >> just played
Codeman >> UP NOW
Lukep >> on deck
Pigswill >>
sorry about the delay, all. I've been swamped with things to do and just haven't had time for Civ right now.
Turn 276/660 (1310 AD) [14-Jun-2007 13:55:35]
I first did a bit of MMing around the empire. I got Princeton's Uni in 2 turns instead of 4. Also, I noticed at Athens that were building a forge in a 7 hammer town?!? At sparta, I mm for a bit more hammers.
Heres Sorbone:
We should figure out what to specialize it as. I was thinking perhaps a commerce town, and run some merchants there instead of sci's (there's nothing there now).
I emph'ed Sci at Cambridge. We should figure out if that's what we want, too, so the next player can take that off. I also stuck in a Sci @ Dartmouth, too.
Before I hit enter, I actually MM Princeton again to get the Uni next turn.
Oh, and WOW!
Do we need a military!!Turn 277/660 (1316 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:04:53]
The Uni finished then at Athens, so I decided to keep it focused on shields for now, and went w/some Maces. We can upgrade those to Grennies and at least they'll havea CR promos.
At Athens, the Forge finisehd and I went with a Uni
Turn 278/660 (1322 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:08:59]
Asoka came by:
but I told him to stick it!
Turn 279/660 (1328 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:09:34]
Constitution came in, and I went with Printing Press next for the bulbing. I also touched off the revolution:
We should also think about Mercantilism, too; were only getting 12 gp from foreign sources at this point.
Turn 280/660 (1334 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:10:54]
After the anarchy, we have 4 t's left on PP.
Turn 281/660 (1340 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:12:22]
Nothing
Turn 282/660 (1346 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:12:39]
The Harbor is done at Cambridge, and we start on a Uni there too. On a sidenote, the Colossus is still available!! Might be nice free commerce for all our sea cities
Turn 283/660 (1352 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:14:37]
I started building some Longbows for defense, too.
Turn 284/660 (1358 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:16:23]
Printing Press came in:
and we're onto Chemistry.
Five turns left after bulbing.
Turn 285/660 (1364 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:17:58]
nada
Turn 286/660 (1370 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:18:18]
Zip.
Turn 287/660 (1376 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:19:05]
I started alternating between offensive and defensive units at Princeton, Sparta, and Sorbone.
Turn 288/660 (1382 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:20:26]
Zero.
Turn 289/660 (1388 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:21:08]
Okay!
Next up:
I went around all of our cities to start running Merchants and 0% science so that we can upgrade our Grenadiers. The poor thing is that were only getting 100 gpt, and each axe needs about 300 gold for upgrading.
Turn 290/660 (1394 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:25:12]
Goose egg.
Turn 291/660 (1400 AD) [14-Jun-2007 14:25:49]
Shaka came by, too, demanding our newfound military might:
at the risk of alienating him, I told him to take a hike. Hopefully that doesn't come back to bite us in the ass.
Okay, my 15 are up, and heres our army:
If this were an SP game, I'd go to war with the army we have (NOT the army I wish to have or have at a later date)
We can continue running 0% science and use our pillage money to upgrade to grennies, and hopefully maybe take 3 or 4 cities before we have to call it quits with him. Eventually, should we eliminate him?? I think so, but let's talk ~
Roster (15 turns)
Zophos >>
Pholkhero >> just played
Codeman >> UP NOW
Lukep >> on deck
Pigswill >>
pigswill
fly (one day)
For a start we can sell techs (except chemistry), I managed to pick up 1300 gold for this, enough to upgrade to 4 grens and 2 maces. That's enough to start a war (stack of 6 grens, 6 seige).
If we're heading for war we can also switch civics to rep, nat, slavery, merc, theo and spend a few rounds whipping and drafting grenadiers.
If we're heading for war we can also switch civics to rep, nat, slavery, merc, theo and spend a few rounds whipping and drafting grenadiers.
good turns.
does anyone have economics? if not, don't you get a free GM for discovering? that could be the gold we need for the upgrades, but probably some one already has it.
about sorbone---the ability to switch from mines (maybe some engineers to)to dyes (maybe some merchants to) means it can be what we want when we want or need most at the moment.
that's the beauty of a SE. scientists for beakers, artists for culture, engineers for hammers, merchants for gold, priests for gold and hammers (which wonder gives an extra hammer per preist---we should take from someone). instant change of direction. i've got the concept, just no practical exp.
does anyone have economics? if not, don't you get a free GM for discovering? that could be the gold we need for the upgrades, but probably some one already has it.
about sorbone---the ability to switch from mines (maybe some engineers to)to dyes (maybe some merchants to) means it can be what we want when we want or need most at the moment.
that's the beauty of a SE. scientists for beakers, artists for culture, engineers for hammers, merchants for gold, priests for gold and hammers (which wonder gives an extra hammer per preist---we should take from someone). instant change of direction. i've got the concept, just no practical exp.
Zophos
Greater Ape of Antics
Pretty much everyone has economics - check the trade screen from the end of my set.
Good turns, Pholk. And don't mind my nagging.
Lucky1972
Prince
lurker's comment:
I think you cannot draft granadiers, only musketman, rifleman, infantry (don't kow what comes earlier or after).
I don't have the game to test it right now, but I am not sure if the foreing income on the financial advisor screen includes foreing trade routes . I remember it includes the gpt you receive from trading resources. Hummm... in fact, the trade routes give commerce, not gold, so they should go into the commerce column, right?
Sorry if I am wrong, but I remember having this kind of problem when trying to decide about a change to Mercantilism, and I actualy went through the cities summing up foreing trade routes values.
I think you cannot draft granadiers, only musketman, rifleman, infantry (don't kow what comes earlier or after).
I don't have the game to test it right now, but I am not sure if the foreing income on the financial advisor screen includes foreing trade routes . I remember it includes the gpt you receive from trading resources. Hummm... in fact, the trade routes give commerce, not gold, so they should go into the commerce column, right?
Sorry if I am wrong, but I remember having this kind of problem when trying to decide about a change to Mercantilism, and I actualy went through the cities summing up foreing trade routes values.
pholkhero
Deviant Mind
Never doAnd don't mind my nagging.
great point about the SE. also, thanks for reminding me about the GM ~ w/ all the Merchants running, we should be getting another Great Person from Princeton in about 9 turns or so. We could cross our fingers and hope for a GM; that would be REAL nice (which prolly means we won't get it
)i think you're right here in both instances, actually. Thanks for pointing that out to us!
another great point. Why don't we sell the techs we can on the inherited turn, Codeman, use that cash to upgrade and start the war with that.
we could then cross our fingers for a GM, and hope for some good pillage money. Or is that too risky, ya think?
zophos said:
sorry it's been a while since i read that post. my bad. i should have checked before i opened my mouth. need to remember we are behind in tech.
pholkhero said:
i can't see why it wouldn't work. since i'll be going in to war, 10 or 15 turns?
Lucky1972
Prince
You are welcome. I am glad if the information was useful.
Enjoying the game so far, will keep lurking.
Zophos
Greater Ape of Antics
No criticism intended - just pointing it out. I have enough trouble remembering the big stuff, much less the details, myself. Like...uh...see below.
So we've decided to take on...Asoka, apparently. Did I miss a memo? Have we checked to see who else could be bribed into this little adventure?
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