PH09: The King and We

I think we need to attack Quin next hurrin, and I think we need to go as far as Beijing.

If we go for Ram, we only get two cities, and they both have infantry in them, and get get closer to Bismark.

If we attack quin, we will ultimatly get access to the small see between china and germany which will get us get to the heart of the german empire.

We do however need to keep lots ot troops back home I think as I would expect bismark to counter attack.
Saldin probably won't be much bother though, as he got smegged by Bismark only 10 turns ago.

@pholkhero We can't put the globe there, as we have to national wonders. we can whip every 7 turns though, and end up producing about 3 or 4 units in every 7 turn cycle I think.

So, I'll focus on building cannons, and bring some troops to the north. But not all of them.
 
Here we go.

Turnset 6


0: 440 1850

Whip at Technottin, and put overflow into work-boat. it will take 20 turns for the hammer investment to break even, so probably worth in.

I wake up our two spys. Send one to Beijing via germany, and the other into germany it self.

brief tour of our cities doesn't show anything wrong. We could do with some workers in the northern tundra though.

looking round the marked up cities:

I don't think Birghton can be huge production until Biology. Currently it's only +4 foodi if we farm the two cottages.

Nottingham has a better chance, especially if it takes Teotihuacan's sheep. Pre biology it can work all it's grassland hills, post it will probably get some water-mills I there too.

I don't think Lyon will be able to support any decent production. although again, it's got grassland hills and can just about support them pre-biology.

Paris needs biology and convert the cottages to workshops.

I'm not too good at figuring out the max production these places will get, and only just about good enough to get a rough feel for a place.

Is it work running London as a GP farm ? or cottage it up more for commerce ?

Newcastle looks like quite a flexible city. Currently it's high commerse, but it can generate 14 :hammer: even before converting the mature cottages to farms or watermills...

This is where I really suck. Deciding on city management when you've taken over another civ.

OK. On with the turnset.

1: 441 1851

Humm, Bis has his hands full again. Will it be ram, or us. We don't have enough Eps on ram or us to know their power levels....

Move some completed grens and cannons to the front.

Some good news for Ram and Bis. :(

pic1.jpg


2: 442 1852
the spy reveals
pic2.jpg



Each of those torrops has about two units in the stack, so sally's probably not going to be too much of a threat.


3: 443
Quin comes asking for open boders.

Nah, I think not.

The 2nd workboat finishes in Tech (did you know they are classed as military units :-) )
Our capitol is turning out spys. We'll need them to defend our border cities, and to replace losses as we scout out for Bismasks and Quin's stacks

Er, we finish a barraks at Tlaxcala. :smoke: Why were we building that there, It has nowhere near enough production for units in this timrframe now. And we've just put two scientists there, so maybe we should build a uni. But, I set the queue to cannon for now. 16 turns though !

Same with Newcastle. If we're going to convert some of these cities to production, we will end up tearing down some mature towns to do so...

And Reading thinks it wants to be English again. Yeh, right.
pic3.jpg


We found copper near Nottingham. I guess that helps move it more towards a production city.

winston seems to be keeping his troops on our border for some reason. Silly sod. They'll be needed your border with Sally son.

The spy shows that Sally has a few troops, but not enough to cause us trouble on a counter attack without emptying his cities.

So, I was thinking it would be nice if we get some random events, then we do.
pic4.jpg


But not what we wanted.

I decided to forgo the theater. We don't really need it there, and we'll need every :gold: we have for upgrades.


Ram seems to have lots of infantry and airships. :eek:
pic5.jpg


that's a huge tech lead on us. We're 7 techs away from Assembly Line ! !!
But, interestingly, Ram is prepared to sign a defensive pact with us, and is scared of Bismark's military might.

PIC6.jpg


If we decide to go the peaceful route, that may be worth it.


4: 444 1854AD
Riffles are in. We so far behind that trying to move up to Assembly line will take forever. Prehaps we can get to Artillery and rocketry easier. Anyway, we need scientific method for just about anything else interesting, so I set to that.

5: OK, so we get a good random event,
pic7.jpg


how about a useful one ? +1 against sally isn't much help really. He's still mad as hell with us for some reason.

Our spy reveals that Quin's core is defended, but we'll probably take it. without too much bother.
pic8.jpg



6: 446 1856
More bad luck.

pic9.jpg


Texcoco is still connected, so I don't bother paying to fix the roads. We will need all our money for upgrades.

Bugger, that's not the case as it's quite a way from texcoco. Oh well. There's a worker not far away.
Looking back at the picture, it doesn't say which road gets taken out. not good really.

Our spy in Germany seems to be revealing that most of Bismark's troops are still equivalent to ours. All he seems to have on us is numbers


7: 447 1857

Someone is sending their spies against us. Damaged a town.

We'll have to go to war soon, troop maintenance is killing us.

8: 448 1858
Move new troops to the front.

I'm mixing about 50/50 between paris and charters. Charters will probably need to hold or fight off a Arabian counter attack if we attack quin.

9: 449: 1859
Bismark just won his seat at the top of Apostic pallace table. I expect that might cause us problems in a war situation.
pic10.jpg


10: 450 1960
Moved more troops around.

Summary.

When we go to war, we may be best switching to mercantile. We'll loose all our international trade routes.

Personally, I don't think we can win a war against Bismark, unless we can get Ram to dive in on our side. How about a computers b-line ? It's 3 techs beyond physics, about 80 turns at current rate, then we need 1500 hammers for the internet, but we'd then catch up with everything else. Then maybe start a modern war.

Probably :smoke:

We've a spy in germany and one in china. the german cities tended to have three rifleman each.
the Chinese cities had 1-2 grens and some old troops. Eexeption was Beijing and Nanjing which had some cannons too.

So, by the look of it, bismasks threat is his size, not his tech level. Ram is way out in front on tech.

So, if the relegious leaders will allow it, I think we should roll over quin, free him from German oppression then let him feel the warm embrace of the incan civilization.
Then take our troops either south from china into Germany. (if they last that long)
We can try to get winston to take some cities from Sally too. Winston's red coats are still strong.

So, before the next turnset, we need to decide

a) where ironworks will go.
b) which cities we tear down towns in to make production
c) what the long term tech plan is
d) do we fight Quin


There are some troops on goto heading for Paris and Charters. I *think* that's all I've left.
 
good turns; nice war prep ~ could you post a save so we can join the discussion? ;)

I think we should take the DP, even if we end up declaring. Biz is going after someone, and it's either us or Rammy ~ either way, the DP benefits us, I think. A world war, with Egypt on OUR side may be just what we need to break up Biz's empire.

other thoughts on tech w/o the save: i say we head towards artillery next, but if Biz gets to Panzers, we'll be outclassed for modern war. I think the time is now or never with him ~

also, would we be better off foregoing the vassals and just working on knocking back Bismarck far enough so that the vassals free themselves that way?

Roster
pholkhero >> OoP until 12/10; will go after fox ~
GreyFox >> on deck
beserks01
Crotazzo >> OoP until 12/12
Simon_c >> just played
Negyvenketto >> UP NOW
 
good turns; nice war prep ~ could you post a save so we can join the discussion? ;)

Doh !!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/111964/PH09_AD-1860.CivBeyondSwordSave
:blush:

I think we should take the DP, even if we end up declaring. Biz is going after someone, and it's either us or Rammy ~ either way, the DP benefits us, I think. A world war, with Egypt on OUR side may be just what we need to break up Biz's empire.

If we take the DP, then we can't attack anyone without breaking it.
And, if we take the DP, it could well persuade Bis not to attack. Or, once AIs have made their minds up, does nothing change it ?

If that's, the case, then we should sign it ASAP.

other thoughts on tech w/o the save: i say we head towards artillery next, but if Biz gets to Panzers, we'll be outclassed for modern war. I think the time is now or never with him ~
You could be right. I didn't see any mil-tech advantage, and we know he doesn't have steel.

Artillery is the best tech to go for, and then either mil to rocketry, or computers for internet.

also, would we be better off foregoing the vassals and just working on knocking back Bismarck far enough so that the vassals free themselves that way?
the only problem with that is that a) our troops are in the wrong place, and b) there's a very large gap between us and Bis.
And, if we go directly to bis, all our re-enforcements will have to fight their way to the front via Sally. And Quin will counter attack with a stack of around 8 grens/rifles.
I vote for going through Quin to get to Bis.

Also, I've just noticed, we need to send some troops to hastings, probably from charters. It's very weekly defended.
 
quick lurker questions for you

Lets say Bis' vassals break free during the war, what will happen to them then? Will they still be at war with you? Will your relations be hurt with his vassals when you declare war on Bis and then they break free?
 
quick lurker questions for you

Lets say Bis' vassals break free during the war, what will happen to them then? Will they still be at war with you? Will your relations be hurt with his vassals when you declare war on Bis and then they break free?
I'm pretty sure the only difference is that we can sign peace treaty with them once they break free, whereas we cannot sign peace with them while they're still vassals of Biz. All else will still apply since we declared while they're still vassals of Biz.
 
quick lurker questions for you

Lets say Bis' vassals break free during the war, what will happen to them then? Will they still be at war with you? Will your relations be hurt with his vassals when you declare war on Bis and then they break free?

Well, if Bis looses his vassals because he shrinks, then I expect the vassals to keep their attitude to us, and still dislike us. We'd have to go after them too.

If we give Quin a kicking, and he quits being Bis's vassal, then I expect he will vassal to us, because we're giving him a kicking.
 
d'oh ~ just lost my msg ~

With qin, i'm just concerned that we are going to get bogged down trying to make china break free, when the real objective is shrinking Biz. Maybe we could go through Arabia's cities, razing them first, and keep pushing into germany, and just keep some troops back to deal with any Chinese counterattack, and then push forward ~
 
I plan to play tomorrow.
Taking DP is OK for me, I'm not brave enough to start a world war, I leave it to the next player ;)
Artillery is 48 turns away with the current research rate (3 (Sci Meth) +9 (Astron) +18 (Physx) +18 (Arti)).
Qin's land is 102% of original (free @ 50%) so we have to take half his land to set him free. And his pop is 27% of master (free @ 50%) -> we must take half Germany to make China free. Tough.
 
No big things happened. We are in DP with Egypt. Have 1096 :gold: for upgrades if we decide to go war.

Traded wine for 6gpt with Qin, whale for 12 gpt with Bismarck, renegotiated marble trade with Saladin, now for 9 gpt.
Gifted pig to Ramsess in hope he will share techs with us.

I noticed we don't have FP, yet. With a growing (hopefully) empire like ours we should build it somewhere.

Bismarck still doesn't know Steel. We are lack of spy points, no hope to see others demographies anytime soon. So this piece of information is even more valuable.
PH9-11.jpg



Spoiler :

Logging by BUG Mod 2.1 (BtS 3.13)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 450/750 (1860 AD) [09-Dec-2007 10:20:15]
Texcoco finishes: Cannon
Newcastle grows: 9

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Ramesses II(Egypt), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 451/750 (1861 AD) [09-Dec-2007 10:48:33]
Texcoco begins: Aqueduct (9 turns)
Tlatelolco grows: 9
Rheims grows: 12
London grows: 12
Dover grows: 10
Brighton grows: 8
Oxford grows: 8
York grows: 10
Leeds grows: 5

IBT:

Turn 452/750 (1862 AD) [09-Dec-2007 10:54:46]
A Windmill was built near Reading
A Farm was built near Newcastle
Taoism has spread: Newcastle
Tech learned: Scientific Method
Tenochtitlan finishes: Rifleman
Teotihuacan finishes: Spy
A Town was built near Teotihuacan
Tours grows: 11
Paris grows: 11
Brighton finishes: Cannon
Hastings grows: 13
Calixtlahuaca grows: 4

IBT:
Civics Change: Churchill(England) from 'Theocracy' to 'Pacifism'

Turn 453/750 (1863 AD) [09-Dec-2007 10:58:32]
Research begun: Astronomy (9 Turns)
Tenochtitlan begins: Grocer (7 turns)
Teotihuacan begins: Rifleman (11 turns)
Brighton begins: Rifleman (8 turns)
Teotihuacan begins: Taoist Missionary (4 turns)
Tenochtitlan grows: 14
Chartres grows: 12
Reading grows: 6

IBT:
Attitude Change: Bismarck(Germany) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'

Turn 454/750 (1864 AD) [09-Dec-2007 11:06:15]
The whip was applied in Tenochtitlan
The whip was applied in Dover
The whip was applied in Oxford
Tenochtitlan finishes: Grocer
Tours finishes: Taoist Missionary
A Hamlet was built near London
A Village was built near London
Dover finishes: Library
Oxford finishes: University
A Hamlet was built near Oxford
Reading finishes: Hindu Temple

IBT:
Civics Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Environmentalism'

Turn 455/750 (1865 AD) [09-Dec-2007 11:11:08]
Tenochtitlan begins: Taoist Missionary (3 turns)
Tours begins: Rifleman (15 turns)
Dover begins: Barracks (38 turns)
Oxford begins: Bank (300 turns)
Reading begins: Rifleman (21 turns)
A Lumbermill was built near Dover
A Lumbermill was built near Orleans
A Workshop was built near Teotihuacan
The whip was applied in Calixtlahuaca
Tenochtitlan finishes: Taoist Missionary
A Town was built near Rheims
Paris finishes: Cannon
London finishes: Cannon
Newcastle grows: 10
Calixtlahuaca's borders expand
Calixtlahuaca finishes: Sacrificial Altar

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 456/750 (1866 AD) [09-Dec-2007 11:18:47]
Tenochtitlan begins: Rifleman (4 turns)
Paris begins: Rifleman (8 turns)
London begins: Rifleman (9 turns)
Calixtlahuaca begins: Granary (90 turns)
Whip anger has decreased in Calixtlahuaca
Teotihuacan finishes: Taoist Missionary
A Village was built near Tours
London grows: 13
London's borders expand
Oxford grows: 6

IBT:
Attitude Change: Bismarck(Germany) towards Ramesses II(Egypt), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'

Turn 457/750 (1867 AD) [09-Dec-2007 11:24:46]
Teotihuacan begins: Cannon (10 turns)
The whip was applied in Hastings
Tenochtitlan grows: 12
Tlatelolco finishes: Cannon
Lyons finishes: Rifleman
Nottingham grows: 8
Nottingham finishes: Rifleman
Dover grows: 10
A Hamlet was built near Oxford
A Town was built near Newcastle
Hastings grows: 13
Hastings finishes: Sacrificial Altar

IBT:
A Winery was destroyed near Aden

Turn 458/750 (1868 AD) [09-Dec-2007 11:28:31]
Tlatelolco begins: Cannon (14 turns)
Lyons begins: Rifleman (12 turns)
Nottingham begins: Rifleman (10 turns)
Hastings begins: Barracks (11 turns)
Taoism has spread: Brighton
Whip anger has decreased in Hastings
Texcoco finishes: Aqueduct
A Town was built near Texcoco
Rheims grows: 13
Chartres finishes: Grocer
A Village was built near York
A Village was built near Dover
Reading grows: 7
Hastings finishes: Barracks
Calixtlahuaca grows: 3

IBT:
Civics Change: Bismarck(Germany) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 459/750 (1869 AD) [09-Dec-2007 11:34:25]
Texcoco begins: Cannon (10 turns)
Chartres begins: Cannon (13 turns)
Hastings begins: Cannon (50 turns)
Tenochtitlan finishes: Rifleman
Orleans grows: 10
Brighton finishes: Rifleman
Newcastle grows: 11
Newcastle finishes: Cannon

IBT:

Turn 460/750 (1870 AD) [09-Dec-2007 11:36:40]
Tenochtitlan begins: Rifleman (4 turns)
Brighton begins: Cannon (7 turns)
Newcastle begins: Cannon (12 turns)
A Lumbermill was built near Tours
Taoism has spread: Leeds
 

Attachments

Roster
pholkhero >> OoP until 12/10; will go after fox ~
GreyFox >> on deck
beserks01
Crotazzo >> OoP until 12/12
Simon_c >> just played
Negyvenketto >> UP NOW
According to this, you're up pholk.
 
nice turns, negy ~ I see it, and will take a look tomorrow and offer more thoughts ~ war, yes or no?
 
War is good. It would help if we can get Ram in on it as well.
 
I think we have too, I'm in favour of pushing via Quin though, then into Germany. That way we can free quin, and he can capitulate to us, taking one side out of the war.

I hope we can get Ram involved, but he does like bis too.
 
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