Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

[CommandoBob]

I like the colony idea and don't forget the suicide missions

I haven't but I didn't take the time to see where the galley and curraghs were positioned.

One worker = one colony = our own source of furs for a long time to come that only costs 10 shields. Sounds good.

 

[CommandoBob]

Planning to play this evening.

 

[Phaedo]

Well, no one seems to be adverse to that. I'd rather see a native worker do that than a slave as it will cut down our coin. As for the boats; I think we only have 1 galley on the southern coast that will take some time to move over to a disembarkation location. We have a few dinghies in poor location for attempts, but I think we are better off sending them seaward than getting them back to upgrade. That means we have to adjust builds for boats (I think this is an absolute necessity in your first turn).

Also, I advocate an ROP with Brennus. No one has weighed in on this yet, but making deals with friendly Civs gets us better deals, we need to have his waters open to us and it will reduce an unwanted war so I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I'd like to take this opportunity to reiterate Bede's trading criteria:

1. Can we afford it?
2. Do we need it?
3. Can we trade it profitably?

1. Yes. I doubt it will cost anything.
2. We don't directly need it, but it will mitigate the possibility of getting our rep ruined so it is valuable.
3. No. But here is the beauty of the the spirit of the criteria. It offers teh possibility of better deals with Brennus (who we haven't had conflict with) by improving our relationship. We will want to trade with him eventually and trading with a civ whose attitude is more positive is cheaper. So we don't get any immediate benefit, but we get the potential for more when we are putting our resources into making new contacts to take advantage of tech disparities.

We will need careful and cagey trading to make this variant work. TGOM's criteria are profound and only limited by our imaginations. I suggest we stick to them. If there is an argument or query over value, I would implore any member of the team to post for advice. The lit trade was questionable by the criteria. Could we afford it? Yes. Did we need it? [no] Could we trade it profitably? [no]. It doesn't kill us, but neither did it get us closer to our goal in the grand scheme of things. It did cost us money (that we couldn't have spent anyway). The point is, even in despotism, with this variant, cash is king. I don't mean to be overly critical Norton, and I hope you don't take offence, but the rational behind that trade wasn't explicated. Just because we can afford it isn't a reason to trade (even if it gets us closer to a new era). We'll get to the new era anyway. We need to do it as efficiently as possible.

EDIT: Cross post. My comments shouldn't really affect your play except for the rop. If you have an argument against, please post it. I'd love to see what I'm missing.

 

[CommandoBob]

Well, no one seems to be adverse to that. I'd rather see a native worker do that than a slave as it will cut down our coin. As for the boats; I think we only have 1 galley on the southern coast that will take some time to move over to a disembarkation location. We have a few dinghies in poor location for attempts, but I think we are better off sending them seaward than getting them back to upgrade. That means we have to adjust builds for boats (I think this is an absolute necessity in your first turn).

Okay. One furry worker colony coming up. I'll switch some builds to boats, say 2 or 3, and try to get them sailing in these turns.

Also, I advocate an ROP with Brennus. No one has weighed in on this yet, but making deals with friendly Civs gets us better deals, we need to have his waters open to us and it will reduce an unwanted war so I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I don't normally have ROP but at the same time I'm not opposed to them. I just don't like AI units wandering around and getting in our way as we move and improve. (Two legged pests!)

The only problem I see with a Celtic ROP is that they DoW on the Dutch and walk through us to attack. We can block them; that is not my concern. But if we plan to make war again in 11 turns, our attacking force will be missing the units keeping the Celts away.

The Celts could do that, but I don't think they will.

If we do plan to make war on the Dutch in 11 turns, I need to get our military into shape and into position to make war quickly and competely.

Since we plan to outsmart everybody, and not outfight everybody, an ROP for attitude improvement makes sense, especially if the cost is right (0 gold or less).

 

[Phaedo]

If Brennus DOWs on Willie, it's not really much of a problem (I agree he probably won't). The only blocking would have to be against settlers. Those could be done relatively easily with a unit on the key roads north. Regardless, don't build roads we don't need. We won't be growing past 6-9 in your set so don't over-improve. Chose the best tiles and focus on them. I think that alone will minimize the northern threat. Don't look at the potential land, look at the land we will use. I think that if you look at it this way, we can afford a native worker to build the colony without replacing him.

Edit: I know you love worker turns and are good at them. Forget wasted turns in the long term and think about how to use the workers to maximize the citizens working the squares. As long as we are incredibly efficient, we will be as rich and as productive as we can be

 

[CommandoBob]

[IBT 50 AD]
Get an ROP with Brennie Boy of the Celts, even-steven. Celts are already polite towards us.

We have two galleys in the works, both will complete this turnset, in The Hague and Tobacco Farm. Could swap Tokyo to galley from aqueduct, but that will cost 5 shields. Other coastal cities are building slaves, so no change orders for galleys. If any builds were changed they would not complete this turnset.

Hit Enter.

Celts are building the Sistine Chapel.

Celtic city of Alesia completes the Great Library.

Hittites are building Knights Templar.

Hittite city of Hattusas completes the Knights Templar.

1 70 AD

Kagoshima grows to 4. Can't get it to grow any faster than 10 turns, with the Market completing in 14 turns. Would seem wise at that point to finish the market before rushing the new palace.
Worker turns.
Galley and some workers on Auto-move.
​

[IBT]
Orange units fidget.

WilliesHillyBilly temple -> market, 50 turns.

2 90 AD

Worker E, F and G.
Slaves 01 to 11.
Curraghs A, B and C; Galley 01.
​

[IBT]
Haarlem worker/slave (Slave19) -> vSword, 15 turns, grows in 5.

3 110 AD

Slaves 12 to 20.
Workers H and I.
WorkerD is sacrificed to a Fur Colony of our very own.
​

[IBT]
Izumo worker (J) -> rGalley, 30 turns.

4 130 AD

Slaves 21 to 24.
WorkerJ.
CurraghC begins a suicide run westwards from 2SW of the Hittite city of Adana. This is very far in the north and also the most westward part of this continent. W and W and sees a lot of ocean.

Cycle through the cities.
Arnhem, size 4, all Dutch. rSword -> worker (slave), 5 turns.
​

[IBT]
Tobacco Farm rGalley (02) -> market, 50 turns.

5 150 AD

CurraghC W and W; ocean and ocean.
CurraghA E and E from 2SE of the Celt city of Burdiga; sea and then ocean.

Dutch have learned Feudalism.
​

[IBT]
Galley01 is inside Dutch waters and they complain. Whiners. We'll move.

Amsterdam worker/slave (Slave25) -> worker, 10 turns.
The Hague rGalley (03) -> barracks, 5 turns.
WHB culture expansion.
CurraghC lost at sea.

6 170 AD

CurraghA E and E; ocean and ocean.
Willie has two workers that want to walk from Willies little corner in the SW up to his outpost of Leiden on the far side of Celt land. We impress upon him the importance of keeping his people reigned in and he understands.
I was almost sad that he did.
​

[IBT]
Kyoto market -> vSword, 3 turns.
Nagasaki worker (K) -> harbor, 30 turns.

Hittites are building Leonardo's Workshop.

7 190 AD

CurraghA E and E; ocean and ocean.
​

[IBT]
Hittites are building the Sistine Chapel.

8 210 AD

CurraghA E and E; ocean and ocean.
​

[IBT]
Arnhem worker/slave (Slave26) -> worker, 10 turns.
Green Fields barracks -> market, 100 turns.

Celts are buildign Leonardo's Workshop.

CurraghA was lost at sea.

9 230 AD

Talk to Willie again about his units trespassing on Japanese soil. The workers leave.
​

[IBT]
Kyoto vSword -> vSword, 3 turns.
Osaka market -> vSword, 4 turns.
Toyko aqueduct -> market, 15 turns.

10 250 AD

Galley01 W and W from 2NW of the Dutch city of Middleburg; sea, ocean and ocean.
​

[IBT]

And the save is >>HERE<<.

 

[CommandoBob]

No pretty pictures; the only thing we found was ocean tiles.

Random Notes
Slave26 is right next to Slave25. Slave25 is roading a forest time all by himself; Slave26 was going to help.
WorkerK is working alone, building a road next to Haarlem.
The rest of the workers and slaves are in 7 groups of 3WT each. Three groups are up north, roading the plains. Three groups are between Tokyo and WHB, improving the land we gained by culture expansion and some tiles we just had not improved yet. One group is on the mountian near Kagoshima, making a road.

I have these units segerated; workers and slaves. The reasons are purely selfish; I like'em that way 'cos it is easier for me to count the WT when all of the stack is the same unit. So the stack is either all slaves or all workers. And each stack is 3WT because many tasks are a multiple of 3; making road (flatland or forest) and building a mine (flatland or hill) are the most common tasks we'll do for a while and all are divisible by three.

Willie has sent his workers into our land again. If we want war soon, let these 6 wander around until we declare war and then capture them.

I did not move units south to get ready to fight Willie. Sorry. I focused on worker turns and sea-fog busting.

Our Gem deal with the Celts ends in 1 turn. We need to have those gems. Or wines. Right now we can get wines for 261 of 636 gold. Something to discuss.

Around our new capital of Kagoshima I have cities building mostly markets, in anticapation of those cities being very productive and needing a lot of happy faces.

We lost two curraghs at sea. The third one is almost in position to head east. We have a galley heading west from the Dutch lands to our southwest. Another galley is on the shores of the Dutch island to our southeast, about to be ready to go exploring. The third galley is nearing the Dutch city on the backside of Celt land, getting ready to head east and explore.

We are by far the richest civ we know.

And the most ignorant (which we expected).

When I checked on a trade for Wines I did not examine the other trade options in getting Republic or other techs. I was not trying to pass the buck. But more cash makes the deal easier. And I was hoping for contacts to trade for techs or gold, which didn't happen.

 

[Elephantium]

Well, no one seems to be adverse to that.

*sigh* http://www.thefreedictionary.com/averse

Sorry, it's a pet peeve.

I'd rather see a native worker do that than a slave as it will cut down our coin. As for the boats; I think we only have 1 galley on the southern coast that will take some time to move over to a disembarkation location. We have a few dinghies in poor location for attempts, but I think we are better off sending them seaward than getting them back to upgrade. That means we have to adjust builds for boats (I think this is an absolute necessity in your first turn).

Agreed on all counts.

Also, I advocate an ROP with Brennus. No one has weighed in on this yet, but making deals with friendly Civs gets us better deals, we need to have his waters open to us and it will reduce an unwanted war so I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I'd like to take this opportunity to reiterate Bede's trading criteria:

1. Can we afford it?
2. Do we need it?
3. Can we trade it profitably?

1. Yes. I doubt it will cost anything.
2. We don't directly need it, but it will mitigate the possibility of getting our rep ruined so it is valuable.
3. No. But here is the beauty of the the spirit of the criteria. It offers teh possibility of better deals with Brennus (who we haven't had conflict with) by improving our relationship. We will want to trade with him eventually and trading with a civ whose attitude is more positive is cheaper. So we don't get any immediate benefit, but we get the potential for more when we are putting our resources into making new contacts to take advantage of tech disparities.

A convincing argument! I'm sold.

We will need careful and cagey trading to make this variant work. TGOM's criteria are profound and only limited by our imaginations. I suggest we stick to them. If there is an argument or query over value, I would implore any member of the team to post for advice. The lit trade was questionable by the criteria. Could we afford it? Yes. Did we need it? [no] Could we trade it profitably? [no]. It doesn't kill us, but neither did it get us closer to our goal in the grand scheme of things. It did cost us money (that we couldn't have spent anyway). The point is, even in despotism, with this variant, cash is king. I don't mean to be overly critical Norton, and I hope you don't take offence, but the rational behind that trade wasn't explicated. Just because we can afford it isn't a reason to trade (even if it gets us closer to a new era). We'll get to the new era anyway. We need to do it as efficiently as possible.

EDIT: Cross post. My comments shouldn't really affect your play except for the rop. If you have an argument against, please post it. I'd love to see what I'm missing.

 

[Norton II]

The lit trade was questionable by the criteria. Could we afford it? Yes. Did we need it? [no] Could we trade it profitably? [no]. It doesn't kill us, but neither did it get us closer to our goal in the grand scheme of things. It did cost us money (that we couldn't have spent anyway). The point is, even in despotism, with this variant, cash is king. I don't mean to be overly critical Norton, and I hope you don't take offence, but the rational behind that trade wasn't explicated. Just because we can afford it isn't a reason to trade (even if it gets us closer to a new era).

No offense taken. That was just a screw-up of mine: I was going to include lit in the peace deal with Willie but decided instead to see if I could get a deal for republic in exchange for lit and some GPT. I couldn't, so I should've sold it to him to get our gold back from him, but in my carelessness, I ended the turn before doing so, and he bought it from Brennus or Mursilis instead. I will avoid such carelessness in the future.

 

[Phaedo]

No offense taken. That was just a screw-up of mine: I was going to include lit in the peace deal with Willie but decided instead to see if I could get a deal for republic in exchange for lit and some GPT. I couldn't, so I should've sold it to him to get our gold back from him, but in my carelessness, I ended the turn before doing so, and he bought it from Brennus or Mursilis instead. I will avoid such carelessness in the future.

No worries, mistakes happen. There are also things I often overlook and I find explicating my thought patterns give people a chance to correct me. There might have been something I was missing.

Here's the roster:
Phaedo UP
Bucephalus leave of absence
Elephantium On Deck
Simple Monkey Honoured Lurker
Smart
Norton II
Commando Bob

I guess that makes me up. I'll try to get to it this weekend.

 

[Phaedo]

I've just been looking at the save. Things look good. I agree about the market in Kagoshima. It will take 4-5 turns to get swords down to attack position for the final Willie campaign. I plan to get the market, wait a turn, rush the palace and then start the attack. I want to use the MGL before we start the second war so we have a chance to get another one (FP rush?). Other than that it's exploration and worker turns. Any other suggestions?

 

[Phaedo]

On the pre-turn I'm taking a tour.
Osaka has powerhouse potential but has everything it needs at the moment. Is it worth it to build a gran? I'd rather not eat up more cash with military although we still have 10 more free units so I'll wait for a bit.

The 2nd Willie Campaign will get us republic if we can't trade for it before that.

IBT Celts send a galley down into our waters.
The Hague builds a rax>worker (still 2 dutch citizens)

T1 260AD
Move troops south.
Start exploring:
The boat that left from the West, sees borders and coastal squares (next turn if it survives)
Cbob opened up a line of ocean and you can just make out border on the edge of the black so I send the other galley the same direction on a slightly more southerly route.
The curragh gets into position.
And a final galley moves to Willie's most Easterly point.
Worker moves:
Cbob has done a great job. Just keep the workers on tasks around their respective locations.

IBT renegotiate the lux deal with Brennus for an extra 2gpt (now 4gpt + silks). We ave 9 left with the ROP and we are finished with the Murry deal. I figure we won't be ready to do anything forceful with Brennus for a while anyway. We need it and can easily afford it
The Eastern galley dies.

T2 270AD
We make it to Chinese waters! I'll check the deals after the rest of the turns.
Worker moves
Keep heading military units South.
The rest of the boats head out to uncharted waters.
Mao is up Rep and Down Lit (10 cities).
build an embassy for 86g (out of our 780)
Beijing has 4 spears and a cat, building a sword with no wonders. They seem to have the southern portion of their continent.
No trades here but it bodes well for us. Looks like our continent is the smartest at first blush. That would seem to indicate that keeping Murry and Brennus relatively strong is our strategy and hopefully a trading opportunity on the other continent. If the other continent pulls ahead in the next couple of ages we can look to a more military minded approach to our neighbours, but it looks like MMing for cash will be the order of the day for a while.

IBT Chinese ask us to leave. Of course we will comply. We want to explore new land anyway. Kicking us North would be excellent.
Curragh B dies.
Kyoto sword>settler

T3 280AD
Units are now in place for a Willie attack. I think we can start next turn, but I might wait an extra turn to get some more defense down there.
Galley moves North along the Chinese coast and the Eastern Galley keeps pushing its luck.

IBT Celts finish the Sistine Chapel
Kagoshima finishes the market.

T4 290AD
Rush the palace
The Hague's worker is not a slave (don't know what happened there). Start starving out the extra Dutch citizen.
Eastern Galley spots land and a dark blue border (must be Maya)
Western galley keeps exploring up the Chinese coast.
Northern workers finish their roading and start heading south.
Our peace deal runs out next turn.

IBT We lost the Eastern Galley

T5 300AD
The palace jump brings us up to +57gpt up from 46gpt.
I'll have to do the tour at the end of the turn.
The palace jump helped but was effectively a subtle change and so there weren't many MMing moves to make at all. I changed builds to courts in relevant places.
Declare war on Willie. Double check that our rep is intact with a gpt deal with Brennus (it is)
Move a stack to the border to wait for his silly rush

IBT Willie moves a spear and 2 archers into our territory

T6 310AD
Keep exploring up the coast and meet Egypt. Cleo has Mono, Feud and Eng. I'll check out the trades at the end of the turn.
Raze the city S of Izumo (3-1)
Kill the Dutch units that crossed the border and the ones just on the other side (8-1)
Cleo will give us Eng for 33gpt, 10 g and lit
and Feud for Lit, 54gpt and 283g
We will probably be able to get feud off Willie and I'd like to know the other civs before giving her lit to trade around so I'll wait.

IBT an archer attacks the horse that entered the Dutch territory but dies (9-1) Horse gets promoted

T7 320AD
The Galley keep exploring up the coast. Currently in Egyptian lands.
Workers more to new improvement areas.
Full strength stack moves into Willie's lands and the reinforcements head back to rax towns to heal.

IBT Cleo asks us to leave, we say we will.

T8 330AD
Stack moves next to Eindhoven
Galley keeps going North and it looks like the Chinese have surrounded Egypt
Lots of worker moves.
Brennus will give us Eng for 25gpt and 603 g
Murry wants more. He'll give it to us for silks and all our gold but I'm nervous about lux deals until we have nav
We wait.

IBT Zzzz

T9 340AD
Kill an archer in the open while moving our eHorse to the stack (10-1)
Raze Eindhoven (12-2)
Build an embassy with Cleo. Her capital is size 8 with 6 pikes, 2 knights a cat and a settler. MOM and building a market

IBT Zzzz

T10 350AD
Found Kobe next to Willie's old cap (it's my GF's home town and lets me play a bit more without nagging)

As you can see from the screenies, we should be able to get Rep and Feud from Willie so just keep at it until we have razed those last 2 cities.
Brennus' offer hasn't improved, nor has Murry's.
We have a couple of galleys on the East coast coming up and it would be nice if they could make it over. Once we officially meet the other civs on the beta continent, we can trade our lit around for cash.
It looks like our empire will be just about the right size for a productive Republic. Once we switch, we may want to water some squares but we should even have the mountains mined soon.

Screenies:

Spoiler :

 

[CommandoBob]

Three things I would do at this point:

1) I would not make any trades with our overseas friends until we met everyone. The cost of new techs should go down as we meet more people, especially if the new ones know new techs. We might be able to get Engineering for Literature in a straight swap (doubtful, but possible).

2) I would pound on Willie for his techs. He wants us to pay 40 gpt to give him peace? We're not the ones hurting, he is. If he wants us to take or raze his remaining two cities in the southwest, we will. And then he won't demand that we pay him for peace.

3) I would attach the save.

 

[Phaedo]

3) I would attach the save.

Oops Hee hee, I thought I did.

Sorry, I don't know if it was on the screenie but the 40gpt was for peace, Rep and Feud. He'll take peace for free. They are both gov't techs and you know how the AI loves to hoard those. I expect we'll pay some but it should go down as we clear our continent of him. Regardless, we need both and he is our cheapest option.

P.S. Could someone PM me with how to post the save with a link rather than the Manage Attachments option? Thanks

 

[CommandoBob]

I expect we'll pay some but it should go down as we clear our continent of him. Regardless, we need both and he is our cheapest option.

Yeah, you're right. We do need them, if just to sell them. I think I was just revolting at the thought that we would have to pay for peace, and read that into the trade negoations.

 

[Phaedo]

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating peace now. I just wanted there to be a benchmark to see how the price will go down after we take out his last 2 cities. I don't expect to pay too much to Willie. If we have to pay, I'd rather pay gpt than a flat fee. I'd hope we can get it down to less than 20gpt and I'd rather have the tech at a lower price than a city on his little island that will be a flip risk. We are taking the land with sticks, let's not worry about cities. Let's focus on getting the 2 techs we need and get them as cheaply as possible.

 

[Norton II]

Watch out, though; if the cities he has left aren't immediately threatened, his price might go up, no matter how weak he is vs. us.

 

[Phaedo]

I thought of that. What do you think is our best option? Should we leave him one, and hope to include that city in the deal? The up side is that deal I saw was when I was 2 away from his cap.

The roster:
Phaedo
Bucephalus leave of absence
Elephantium UP
Simple Monkey Honoured Lurker
SmartOn Deck
Norton II
Commando Bob

 

[Norton II]

That might be the best thing, but IMO the techs are more important than the city, so we should only take the city if we can still get the techs for a reasonable price.

 

[Phaedo]

I know that we would get a better price if our troops were close to the cap rather than away from it but I'm not sure if this would be better than an extra razed city. Does razing as opposed to keeping affect price? These would be relevant criteria if we knew them. Maybe I'll try an experiment on an earlier save if I get a chance. All input is welcome