Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine

The only thing I'd add is that our current until limit is 19. So you have about 30 units to disband. Make sure the 9 you leave are offensive units and keep all the eSwords and the eHorse. Keeping any other horses around might be a good idea too. Once done, I'd keep 6-7 down south where there is open land and about 5 East (preferably on the hill that will be outside our border after the temple). The rest can protect the North. We don't need any units in cities.

Good luck:D
 
Turn 4 continued...

unit limit 19
Sign ROP with Brennus
Sell Engineering to Willie for 17gpt+16 gold (better for us long-term, assuming he doesn't backstab us)
Buy Invention from Cleo for Lit + 931 gold.
Buy Gunpowder from Alex for 67gpt+15 gold.

Switch Groningen to Temple (waste 5 shields).
Kyoto: FP
Tobacco Farm: Duct
Haarlem: Market
Osaka: Wealth
Izumo: Market
Kagoshima: Granary
Nagasaki: Duct
Arnhem: Galley
Kobe: Market

Establish Embassy with Greece for 114 gold.

Disband a few troops, move several others. Devise a matrix of posts where existing troops can be deployed for maximum defensive flexibility.

IBT:

10 shields returned to Green Fields.
Brennus wastes no time - two settler pairs enter our territory.
Groningen: Temple->Market
Edo: Market->Duct
WillysHillBilly: Market->Settler
Celts start Copernicus and Bachs
Hittites building Copernicus. They finish it.

Turn 5 (400 AD):

Disband more troops.
Our exploring Galley chances across a Mayan galley as he moves northward along the Greek coast! Because of this, I change some builds:
Amsterdam: Market
Arnhem: Temple

Mayans are up Mono, down Lit and Gunpowder, and annoyed with us.
SJ will accept a trade of Mono+3 gold for Gunpowder, Lit, and 21gpt. I'm tempted to take it to leverage Lit while we can.

To answer Bede's questions...
1. Do we need it? Yes. a) it's a required tech. b) it's a precursor for our UU.
2. Can we afford it? Yes, though the 21gpt seems steep.
3. Can we be trade it profitably? No, only Mao and Willy lack it, and they're both broke.

A Mayan embassy costs 54 gold.

What do you think, team?
 
I think SJ must be nearly finished researching Gunpowder to be offering such a poor deal; what is our gpt at the moment?

Edit: I see from your screenie, it's 46gpt.

Hm..... It's a question of whether we wait and hope Mao will acquire it soon - in which case we'll get it in a straight trade for Invention - or take this deal.

A further factor to consider is that Astronomy is out; I can't remember if our continents are seperated by sea or ocean. I'll check the save and post my thoughts later.
 
How much do we get for Lit straight up? Lit is effectively worthless now. We could sell the 2 techs for gold and look for an opportunity to get Mono later.
 
Yeah, I'm inclined to wait and see, too; as well as the possibility of Willie or Mao getting Mono, there is also the possibility of getting it from Brennus once our deal for Iron runs out.

Also, when Chemistry is known on the other continent, it offers excellent trade bait to Brennus, assuming he hasn't yet made contact with the others; for that we will need plenty of gold. Maybe we should concentrate on raising gold and building infastructure for a while.

We will also be in a better bargaining position once we have the Salt.
 
Okay, I'll wait. For now, I'll get what gold I can for Lit.

Edit: He's only willing to offer 5 gold.

Should I consider signing a ROP with him to improve his attitude?
 
400AD continued...

More troop movements. I'm planning to put 4 troops per "outpost", giving us a handy force to defend against any landing parties.

Other than Monotheism, Smoke-Jaguar is only willing to offer 5 gold for either Gunpowder or Lit. I'm going to wait a turn.

While I'm at it, I establish an embassy with them. It doesn't change Maya's trading attitude.

IBT:

10 shields to Green Fields
Celts working on Bachs
The Celts turn their settler pairs around and leave. I guess I must have walled off the empty land they wanted.

Turn 6 (410 AD):

No WONDER SJ was stingy. He learned Gunpowder on the IT. He's still only offering 7 gold for Lit.
Change Ice Shelf to Market (we don't need extra galleys anymore)

IBT:

10 shields returned to Groningen.
Alex complains about our galley. We apologize. His soldiers will eagerly await our return.
Kagoshima: Granary->Settler

Turn 7 (420 AD):

Change Osaka to Settler, due in 3.
Doh. I should have taken the 7 gold deal last turn; SJ spent 6 of his gold on something.
SJ and Brennus have met.

IBT:

10 shields to The Hague.
Brennus and Murray each have a galley headed for our (for now) unclaimed tundra.

Turn 8 (430 AD):

Double doh. SJ bought Lit from someone else.

IBT:

10 shields to Nagasaki
20 to Groningen.
WilliesHillyBilly: Settler->Wealth
Tobacco Farm: Duct->Market

Turn 9 (440 AD):

Move workers and troops a bit.
No interesting trades are available. Everyone still wants all our gold plus lots of gpt for Monarchy.

IBT:

Kagoshima: Settler->Settler
Osaka: Settler->Wealth

Turn 10 (450 AD):

Move troops again. We have three settlers: One is headed for the salt on the northern border, and the other two are headed for our unclaimed tundra near Izumo. I've prepared a dotmap for places I think we should settle down there. Blue dots are places I was planning on dropping cities because it puts most of the coast within our culture borders.

Hey, someone learned Navigation! Murray, Brennus, Alex, and Cleo all have map trading available now.
 
Not bad tusker, but the Lit tech was unfortunate. IMO you should have traded it to everyone the same turn you gave it to China. It was an old tech in a different age. The price was never going to go up and you could have ensured that you had a monopoly on it. As it was, we got nothing from it. Not the end of the world though.

Tech trading is not my forte. But there are some rules of thumb.

A monopoly tech will net you the most value (however if a civ is close to research itself, the value will be relative to the beakers invested). At higher levels this pretty much only happens when there are 2 continents that don't have contact through Nav or Mag. In addition, as the tech gets older, the value goes down (so the value seems also to be relative to the current tech level of the civ). There also seem to be techs, such as gov'ts, that the AI over values.

I'm sure that stuff is relatively well understood (as it is often said in the forums). The other factor is that the AI gives tech away to each other at rock bottom prices. This can happen in the IBT, so giving a tech to one Civ and not others allows that AI Civ to become the broker.

Finally, if you can identify the direction of AI research, it is possible to target certain techs for trading purposes. At lower levels where you can effectively out-research the AI, it is often more efficient to research optional techs or in directions the AI is not taken for trading purposes. Buce is using the same strategy with his advice and focusing on Brennus. We can't research at all but if we can pick up the techs Brenus doesn't have from others, we can use his research to both keep up in tech and use his research to sell around and get cash. We are basically using Brennus to research for us (our only option in this variant).

So our game, China was given Lit in 360AD. It would have probably been best to use Lit to trade around the same turn. However things worked out and you used Lit to trade effectively (although it probably was equal to 10ish gold). By the time we met the Myans, they were the only civ that didn't have Lit and it was an optional tech from a previous age. I would have taken the 5 for Lit but when the price went up to 7 (I'm assuming that was all his gold), that was a clear indication to sell because the tech gained value.

Otherwise, it was a well-executed set Tusker. Well done! I appreciate all the pausing for discussion.

On the topic of discussion, I would encourage everyone to download and look at the save after each set. I know we all have lives so slower going with more discussion is fine. But for the player, it is much easier (and more fun) to take a set with a clear idea of goals and what the team wants. This can be accomplished with more participation before someone takes his set. Of course there will be surprises and pausing is the right thing to do in that case. Creativity is going to win this for us and the more input the better. We may not have good ideas, but there may be good in them. Threshing out the ideas will give us all a better feel for the game and may bring things that might otherwise be overlooked.

Finally, Buce is understandably itching to get back in it and take a set. I think we have two options. We could look at it as if Norton and Buce switched and he can take the next set, or someone down the roster can switch with him. I think the former is easier but if Norton or Cbob foresee scheduling conflicts later, maybe the latter is better. We haven't heard from Smart for ages so I'm going to skip him. He is most welcome to join in if he participates in the discussion a bit before taking a set.

As it stands now, the roster:
Phaedo
Bucephalus Back and looking to play and UP
Elephantium Simple Monkey Honoured Observer and alternate
Smart AWOL
Norton II On Deck
Commando Bob

I'll look at the save and post some thoughts for the future later
 
I have no problem with Buce taking this set if he wants. Haven't looked at the save yet (was out of town all weekend), but I'll check it out tomorrow and make some observations.
 
Some initial observations to add to what Phaedo has said:

The two continents have now met; there is good and bad in this.

The bad is that Celts will have access to any newly learned techs without our being able to act as a middle man.

The good is that we can now trade our resources worldwide; for example, Greece will hand-over their WM for our excess Silks. We can then sell our WM the same turn to our advantage.

China - although broke at the moment, through being at war with Smokey - have good territory, and will eventually provide an opportunity to recoup some of our expenditure on techs. Willie will always be good for a few extra gold also.

I think the time is right to start buying our way up the tech tree, starting with Mono; I can get a reasonable deal this turn by using our WM to supplement our gold.

I feel that we should ignore optional techs; with the exception of Chivalry, which will give us our UU, I can't see value in any optionals in this era, and even Chivalry isn't a priority. If we can get it as make-weight in a deal with China at some stage, we should do so, but our GA will be at it's most advantageous when we are working more tiles. On that subject, it's essential that we now concentrate on building our economy; we need markets, and Ducts where appropriate. We need to become an economic powerhouse.

We must cave to all demands for the foreseeable future now that contacts are made; the last thing we would want is someone allying Celts against us.

The tundra to the South should be settled, not because it offers much in the way of potential, but because it is a likely source of future resources (Rubber, Oil and Aluminium); Willie was quick to settle it, so I suspect he knows something we don't.

We should continue to forment war between Celts and Hittites, partly to exploit Celts' lack of resources, but also to keep their attention from us.

If we can keep from being attacked as far as Replaceable Parts, we will have a chance to pull this out of the bag; once we have Infantry and Arty it will be time to clear our continent of such rabble, and I would be confident of doing so, even against tanks.

Although I'm eager to play this, I'd like to hear some opinions first; Phaedo was spot-on when he suggested downloading each save, as it's much easier to get a feel for the game.

This is a tough variant, at a higher level than is comfortable, so it's going to be a tough challenge; it's essential that we don't rush it.
 
On reflection, once we have Mono, we should begin Cathedral builds in our core cities, at least; I know that this flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but we need big cities working the maximum number of tiles.
Also, Celts have Sistine Chapel which will one day be ours.
 
A further measure I'd like to take is to add all our native workers to our core cities because, a) we have almost finished improving our land, and we have more than enough slave workers to finish the job; b) we will save 2gpt on unit support for each worker; c) pushing cities past pop 6 will save a further 4gpt in unit support.

We can therefore save something like 6gpt for every worker added, a significant sum.
 
I'm going to have to ask for a skip on my next turnset. Things at home are topsy-turvy, with painting and sorting old PC stuff (I think I saw the 5.25 disks of Civ I) and rearranging rooms. I don't see that ending in the next week.
 
What I see so far:
-The walls in WHB can be sold--we don't need them anymore.
-Alex will give us 11 gpt and all his gold for our silks, but he "would never accept such a deal" at 12 gpt. We can get mono from him (that doesn't sound right, does it?) for silks, 27 gpt, and 9 gold; it's an extra 20 gpt without the lux, so it's probably better to include silks in the tech trade than to make a separate lux-for-gpt deal. We can get Egypt's WM for our WM and 63 gold, while Greece's would be much more expensive, so maybe we should trade maps with Cleo instead.
-From the wonder screen, I see that the Celts have music theory. We also know that everyone except the Chinese, the Maya, and us has navigation since we can trade maps with them. Unfortunately, nobody has chemistry, so we'll probably have to pay cash for techs for a while. Looks as if everyonedecided to focus on the top half of the MA tech tree.
 
The AI is wholly consistant with it's valuation of WM's; if Greece values it's WM more, it's because it knows more of the world.

That could just mean that they know more about our continent that the Egyptians do and thus value our WM less.
 
I know that this isn't a training game, yet I'm also aware that some of you are playing outside of your comfort zone, so I'd like to share a few thoughts.

Firstly, playing outside of your comfort zone is good; it's the best way I know of to move through the levels at this game, so don't let that faze you.

The stroke that we've just pulled with Brennus was an example of 'outside the box' thinking, a necessary part of the game beyond Emperor.

This is not something that can be taught; but it is something that can be learned.

The last game I played (Goz12, a Deity 5CC with a Space VC) saw me way, way, way out of my comfort zone; I only accepted the invitation to play for the opportunity to play with some truly great players.

It quickly became apparent that I would have to unlearn much of what I thought I knew about the game; it was a very steep learning curve.

My moment of truth came when I discovered the AI's best kept secret - it employs the same General/Strategist at Deity as it does at Chieftan.

I call him, 'The Grand Old Duke of York', after his habit of marching his stacks back and forth in an aimless and predictable manner; and the only difference is the size of the stack.

Once I realised this, I grew in confidence, and I lost my fear; I began to manipulate this weakness to achieve my own ends.

So, let us not be afraid to try new things; let us try not to be bogged down with conventional thought.

Let's think the unthinkable, and question the unquestionable; let's realise that there are no absolutes, that every rule has it's exception.

Above all, let us recognise the Duke of York for who he is, a one-dimensional fool who can be bribed, and tricked, and manipulated to do our bidding.

Because once you can do that, you will have learned what cannot be taught - to think 'outside the box'.
 
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