[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[ChocolateShake]

You: "I noticed you've been encroaching on my territory. I would appreciate it if you didn't settle so close."

Dido: "No U"

I'd love it if that message just went away, was just re-watching the first look and having flashbacks to getting bombarded with it

 

[Victoria]

Your next district should be the Cothon

Great stuff, respect as always... just one leetle issue as I have been pointing out as an England player... will your spreadsheet tell me when I will get celestial navigation? ... because when I play England it runis your game pushing there. I have moved it to ship building and it works, you can in fact even play a Free Inquiry game although it is not as strong as monumentality it is different.
So... moving Harbours to shipbuilding (which makes perfect sense... I mean who does not need a harbour when they build ships) and making celestial navigation an alternative way to get to sail the oceans or something else.
Having harbours down a double leaf node is a joke.

One other benefit of switching capitals is the housing benefit.

 

[Ziad]

The analysis is fairly thorough but the conclusion flawed. In your hypothetical example your Cothon cuts the cost of the first settler by 2, or 20% of the total, compared with any other civ with an Ancestral Hall - and naturally you must by this point have a population of at least 4 in the city producing these districts and has had to take a very specific tech path (as well as deferred production on anything else). For this opportunity cost, this bonus is trivial.

You make a much better case for the importance of the extra early trade routes (though in the above assume you are not making trade units so get no use out of them) - the conclusion that follows from this is properly that the trade bonus is being underappreciated, but that far from being "expansionist monsters" the Phoenician settlement bonus is fairly trivial. You appear to assume that no one else can get Ancestral Halls or Early Empire.

Well he talks about how you can stack bonuses (he doesn't mention increased movement which in itself adds up over time), but one should also consider the complementary benefits. That other civilizations need to invest in Ancestral Halls and Early Empire only to keep up with Phoenicia while still settling slower is enough of an influence in itself.

And if they settle coast near you, you can absorb or destroy them. As long as they don't, who cares what other civilizations do? Phoenicia wants to trade with you! Just don't settle on coast too much and you'll be best buds.

 

[liv]

Haven't studied it as much as you guys have but I am a bit underwhelmed
Also I see Ed Beach say on twitter that for domination purposes the original capital does not move.

 

[PhilBowles]

Well he talks about how you can stack bonuses (he doesn't mention increased movement which in itself adds up over time), but one should also consider the complementary benefits. That other civilizations need to invest in Ancestral Halls and Early Empire only to keep up with Phoenicia while still settling slower is enough of an influence in itself.

But any civ that wants to expand early (i.e. most of them) already adopts both of these ASAP, so there's no meaningful cost incurred here. Unless there's been any rebalancing that means that these are not automatic go-to options early in the game this doesn't impact anything.

 

[KayAU]

Some thoughts:

• As someone who likes naval civs, I really like Phoenica, although they are not top tier in terms of power
• I find the design of Phoenicia to be both strange and interesting. It does some things which are similar to other civs:
  • Unique Galley replacement, like Norway
  • Naval unit production bonus, like Norway
  • Bonuses to settling along the coast, like the Maori
  • Unique Harbour replacement, like England

It also does some things which are different from other Naval civs, but not all that exciting:

• Free Eureka for a single tech at the beginning of the game
• Additional trade routes
• Production bonus for Settlers
• Minor district production bonus

And finally, it does some things which no other civ does:

• Complete immunity from Loyalty pressure on one continent
• Ability to move capital

• All of Phoenicia's abilities seem fairly good, and synergize somehow
• You are supposed to spread along the coast, and given abilities to boost that
• You are given means to build a strong navy and defend your territory, both from military threats and loyalty pressure
• The Bireme looks great for defense and exploration. It is better than the Viking Longship, although it has less utility, due to the abilities the Longship gets from Norway's other abilities. Additionally, the Bireme will loose all of its uniqueness when upgraded, while Norwegian Caravels can still coastal raid and heal in neutral waters.
• The production bonus Phoenicia gets for ships is better than Norway's, due to it applying to all naval units, not just the melee line. Norway's only advantage is that it gets it right from the start, without the need for a Harbour District.
• They are given a few bonuses to encourage peaceful play: production bonus for Settlers, loyalty bonus for own cities, and the ability to move capital loyalty pressure around
• With regards to Domination Victory, I am assuming that Phoenicia's original capital still counts as Phoenicia's original capital

If I were to summarize Phoenecia, I would say they are a coastal, peaceful civ with a decent and interesting set of abilities, and no specific victory focus. Personally, this is all good, and they will probably be among the first GS civs I try.

 

[Josephias]

I can see myself getting annoyed by this often. I'll probably send the boat back to a tile that I think belongs to a city with a Cothon, only to discover that a neighboring city without a Cothon claimed the tile first.

The new empire lens should help with that. In any way, you might want to swith all “blank” sea tiles to your cothon city as war preparation.

 

[Ziad]

But any civ that wants to expand early (i.e. most of them) already adopts both of these ASAP, so there's no meaningful cost incurred here. Unless there's been any rebalancing that means that these are not automatic go-to options early in the game this doesn't impact anything.

But it does. You settle faster and more quickly and aren't as affected by scaling costs. So while other civilizations eventually have to give way to domination or stop settling altogether, Phoenicia can keep going for a bit longer. You also have pseudo immunity to loyalty losses so one can forward settle, establish a stronghold quickly (through purchases), change the capital, and build a new empire on a new location quickly.

And tile yield advantages are quickly lost when you have a city count disadvantage.

Frankly I'm confused why people are confused by this notion. All these small tile yields here and there are pretty but ultimately all that matters in this game is city count when you get down to it, and Phoenicia can do it quickly and peacefully like no other.

 

[Steamboat Willem]

Just rechecked the bonuses - this isn't actually correct. They fully heal only within the borders of a city with a Cothon, and this isn't a Bireme ability but a Cothon ability - they get extra speed, just like the Longship.

And by the time Cothons come along good luck taking out cities with Galleys.

Cothons come two techs after Galleys. Of course you could waste time going down the bottom of the tech tree, but then you're not playing to Phoenicia's strengths.

 

[Arianrhod]

Even if Phoenicia was the worst civilization in the franchise, I would still use them because the Cothon is the most beautiful tile that you can have more than one of in the game tbh.

And I already know 100% I will never intentionally use a Bireme in combat but those look rad too.

 

[Victoria]

If nothing else the Cothon saves slotting the settler card

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I still hope for some change to the tech tree to make Harbor easier to make (though it's probably too late for that now), not just for carthage. It's imo the most fun district but also hard to get.

 

[Onin]

Except that sea routes are, unless anything changes in the expansion, completely safe at any game stage where you want Biremes. This is far less useful than the Malian equivalent ability for land trade, attached to a relevant UU. Biremes as City-Killers? If were good enough Norway would be a domination powerhouse, since the Bireme seems functionally identical to the Longship but with healing instead of extra movement and pillage. Of course, its strength bonus might be greater than the Longship's - we don't yet know. But it's not an encouraging precedent.

I think the combination of the strong naval unit and the ability to settle and not worry about loyalty should help create a one two punch of naval/sea based expansion. Unlike Norway they can help support those conquered cities along the coast more easily with other cities helping with loyalty issues. The civ itself is designed to be a more spread out empire as opposed to Norway which is confined by loyalty issues like any other civ. In the case of Norway their ships are meant to bring resources back to their concentrated empire through raiding while Phoencia is meant to gobble up as many tiles along the coasts as they can.

The civ doesn't seem overpowered by any stretch but they certainly seem to have a play style that is fundamentally different from other civs currently in the game. I kinda think England was meant to be more like this as an effective colonizing civ.

 

[Ziad]

Phoenicia will live and die by its ability to expand. This makes them flexible and adaptable to any victory type.

Again, the stream will reveal a lot more and answer some questions.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think the cultural victory strategy for Phoenicia involves settling ideal coastal areas for Seaside Resorts and National Parks, to a lesser extent.

The Scientific Victory works the same as for other economic civs. Buy the Spaceport and spam Builders to expend on the component projects.

I'm not seeing an ideal Religious Victory strategy yet. Being all spread is kind of a disadvantage. Religious Colonization would probably be an ideal belief.

 

[PhilBowles]

But it does. You settle faster and more quickly and aren't as affected by scaling costs.

You're very heavily harmed by scaling costs - based on your table your bonus gets smaller and smaller relative to everyone else's as you build more settlers. The more you settle, the less you accelerate your rate of settlement relative to the norm.

Victoria makes a good point that this may be better for allowing you to use policy slots on something other than Early Empire rather than being viewed as something important on top of it.

Frankly I'm confused why people are confused by this notion. All these small tile yields here and there are pretty but ultimately all that matters in this game is city count when you get down to it, and Phoenicia can do it quickly and peacefully like no other.

This isn't Civ IV. Optimal city counts used by Deity players are generally between 6 and 10, and you run out of good settlement spots on most maps at about the time you hit this level, if not before.

I think your analysis made a good case for this civ being better than it looks - the extra early trade routes from the combination of GP and cheaper Harbours is important to bear in mind. But you seem to be blinded by your own preconceptions about how this civ should play to the results of your own analysis. You've shown that the correct way to play this civ is likely to be maximising trade value from cheap districts and the plaza, and they get a minor boost to this strategy as slightly cheaper settlers allow them to get more coastal cities up earlier. Focusing on them as an expansionist civ with a trade boost is exactly the opposite of this, and led to me and others being underwhelmed because the settlement bonus doesn't do enough.

Either way it's never going to be a 'powerhouse' civ, but more trade beats bonuses like better walls or stave churches.

 

[Kaan Boztepe]

just a question out of curiosity : does anyone settle more than 5-6 cities early game. I mean usually there is not enough space with AI ( or multiplayer ). and getting that harbor on research will hurt a lot. if you dont take that early but lets say middle game , it is nice to have but i really am then looking to take cities and not found them.
If you play big maps with minimal civs , this could of course work but then again if we start tailoring our maps to our civs every civ is uber and OP

 

[UWHabs]

I think the cultural victory strategy for Phoenicia involves settling ideal coastal areas for Seaside Resorts and National Parks, to a lesser extent.

The Scientific Victory works the same as for other economic civs. Buy the Spaceport and spam Builders to expend on the component projects.

I'm not seeing an ideal Religious Victory strategy yet. Being all spread is kind of a disadvantage. Religious Colonization would probably be an ideal belief.

Their best strategy is probably settling all corners of the globe. They're a pretty generalist civ, to me - not really perfectly suited to any VC, but none of them are really at a disadvantage. Part of me thinks that they might be a good war-civ since they'll be able to have a foothold anywhere they go, but on the other hand, with increased trade, a sprawling network of cities around the world, and generally less favorable terrain, I could definitely see them preferring to stay peaceful and being more of a trade/alliance civ, even if they don't have a lot of bonuses to that.

One interesting strategy with them: I wonder how fast they can get set up on a new continent and protect it. I'd need to think of the numbers, but I'm thinking:
-Settle on a coastal tile near another civ
-Immediately chop Cothon
-Chop in the production to move the capital there to assume 100% loyalty

I could see that being a real possibility if you have deer/stone ready to go in the new city, otherwise I wonder if you have enough turns to protect the city before it flipped. Would certainly be a very interesting strategy to do that to establish a beachhead, to be able to sail over units to upgrade before beginning an assault on a nearby civ (and thus ensuring that any coastal cities you capture from them don't have loyalty problems).

 

[Ziad]

I feel there's some circular argumentation going here so I'm just gonna wait for the stream so we can get updates and confirmations.

All in all I think their theme is on-point and words cannot express just how relieved I am that the Cothon is not a unique canal.

I want their music theme though damn it.

 

[Kibikus]

just a question out of curiosity : does anyone settle more than 5-6 cities early game. I mean usually there is not enough space with AI ( or multiplayer ). and getting that harbor on research will hurt a lot. if you dont take that early but lets say middle game , it is nice to have but i really am then looking to take cities and not found them.
If you play big maps with minimal civs , this could of course work but then again if we start tailoring our maps to our civs every civ is uber and OP

Exactly my thoughts. People are salivating over getting 3*50% production towards settlers and building a billion of them, and settling all over the map, and I'm wondering if I'm playing the same game. In Civ 6 land gets taken super fast, ESPECIALLY on island maps where there is less land to begin with, AND you need to tech towards and build the Cothon, AND if you want to settle far away you need ocean crossing tech. And then you have no yield bonuses for those cities, unlike say Indonesia, who can settle a one-tile large island and still make a useful city.