[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[Ziad]

To faith or gold buy districts is a feature for end game. That is why I say I feel it will be of limited use. If the capital move needs all that and can't work with those cards or wonders that give bonuses to other continents cities, then I don't think they reward that much for the cost to prepare a city for that.

Just because something is there doesn't mean it should be abused. Can you not see how broken it would be to move capitals on a whim? You'd basically get to supercharge cities in no time. There has to be some investment.

Also you can buy districts with gold and faith within 3/4 governor promotions. That's like 2 civics and the government plaza with ancestral hall... and she is encouraged to rush that plaza.

And you don't even need to buy them that early. First few cities can hard build Cothon fine. By the time it gets problematic, it won't be problematic.

 

[IvoryPavane]

To faith or gold buy districts is a feature for end game. That is why I say I feel it will be of limited use. If the capital move needs all that and can't work with those cards or wonders that give bonuses to other continents cities, then I don't think they reward that much for the cost to prepare a city for that.

Buying districts with gold is as quick as you are willing to invest in one Governor. It could be online pretty quickly.

EDIT: beaten to the punch!

 

[Ziad]

I've barely worked at all today so I shouldn't be beating anyone to the punch, but I stayed late several times last week so they can't hold it against me

 

[Alexadamz]

I don't want to abuse the mechanic. I just feel moving the capital only for the palace yields and the suzerainity bonuses are lacking something. If those continent bonuses works with the capital change, I am fine. And the costs are good as it is.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I've barely worked at all today so I shouldn't be beating anyone to the punch, but I stayed late several times last week so they can't hold it against me

Haha I get it! I do love a bit of Civ discussion!

And I much prefer to look on the positive side of Civs too, so it’s nice to bounce ideas off similar mindsets!

Even poor Tamar can convert the world if she plays her game well. (Though girl could use some love)

 

[PhilBowles]

Do you mean my suggested boost is almost never relevant or the Writing boost in general is almost never relevant? Or did you mean specifically Phoenicia's writing boost isn't relevant?

I'm only talking about the civ as implemented. It's a bit late for dissecting might-have-beens.

I think the last one is fair. A shipbuilding boost would be huge, even if you're probably going to build a ship essentially as a scout.

Or they could just start with a galley instead of/as well as a Warrior, in which case the game would recognise they have a ship on loadup and give the eureka right away (as it does for the Aztec Eagle Warrior).

Most interesting about this Thread so far is the fact that succeeding posts call this civ 'the weakest', 'one of the weakest' and 'a powerhouse', 'first I'll play'. Kudos to the Designers, at least half the CivFanatic Community either doesn't know how to play the Civ or doesn't like to play the way this Civ will be strongest.

There's no real tension between recognising the civ is weak and thinking it will be fun to play - there may be turtling wall fans out there who enjoy Georgia, and I liked Denmark in Civ V. One thing most posts I've seen agree on is that the civ's flavour is well-realised, and a lot of players prefer that to raw power.

Anyone calling it a "powerhouse" is exaggerating, possibly in part to overcompensate for the negative press the civ is getting here. Even if everything breaks the way these people expect and the Phoenicians can get a couple of extra early settlers down ... so what? Other civs with food bonuses will grow their new cities faster and can afford to start a bit later, those with production bonuses can naturally generate settlers earlier, those with good uniques can conquer cities more easily, etc. etc. Extra coastal cities, even if coastal cities are now good, don't even benefit them significantly since their habour bonus is only relevant for cities where you want to produce settlers - otherwise it's just like anyone else's harbour and anyone else's coastal city. Most civs that have those kinds of resource bonuses also have other bonuses, but Phoenicia doesn't really.

Nailed the Trade Emphasis, and the Bireme's greatest ability may be Safe Sea Trade routes, which now bring in more Gold and, for Phoenicia are available early and in quantity.

Except that sea routes are, unless anything changes in the expansion, completely safe at any game stage where you want Biremes. This is far less useful than the Malian equivalent ability for land trade, attached to a relevant UU. Biremes as City-Killers? If were good enough Norway would be a domination powerhouse, since the Bireme seems functionally identical to the Longship but with healing instead of extra movement and pillage. Of course, its strength bonus might be greater than the Longship's - we don't yet know. But it's not an encouraging precedent.

 

[Ziad]

I don't want to abuse the mechanic. I just feel moving the capital only for the palace yields and the suzerainity bonuses are lacking something. If those continent bonuses works with the capital change, I am fine. And the costs are good as it is.

Oh I'm 100% on board with this. If the yields stay on the original capital, then the purpose is pretty much trivialized. Moving capitals (and their yields) really captures the city state feel. That the concept of "original" capital exists for balance purposes for some cards and domination victory is a gameplay consequence I'm willing to live with.

 

[Scaramanga]

I would still build a Cothon before doing a major settler push; it's better than having a vanilla civ building settlers. Fill up your home continent's coasts and move on to the next.

 

[Ziad]

Except that sea routes are, unless anything changes in the expansion, completely safe at any game stage where you want Biremes. This is far less useful than the Malian equivalent ability for land trade, attached to a relevant UU. Biremes as City-Killers? If were good enough Norway would be a domination powerhouse

Er... the healing is enough for conquest. You're literally unstoppable. Norway still has to heal.

 

[Zaarin]

Question that I don't know the answer to: What does "red" mean in this context? In some cultures, it refers to red-brown. I don't know the answer to this (hence why I'm asking)

Probably dark red/auburn; I wouldn't expect the Bible meant they looked like Prince Harry.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I don't want to abuse the mechanic. I just feel moving the capital only for the palace yields and the suzerainity bonuses are lacking something. If those continent bonuses works with the capital change, I am fine. And the costs are good as it is.

I think you might be overestimating what bonuses the Civs should be getting.

If it worked with her card, then every city she founded on her first continent would have 25% gold, 15% growth and 10% production. Which is EXTREMELY strong.

And the city state bonuses (hammers for one envoy) and palace yields, could feasibly yield about 8 production per turn, some housing and amenities, at the cost of building a Cothon and the project (assuming its cost is fair), which feels more appropriate (though again, situational).

I don’t think civs need to be broken to be worthwhile

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I do have to note that Phoenicia's choice of capital leaves plenty of hope that Morocco will be in expack 3.

 

[Zaarin]

I do have to note that Phoenicia's choice of capital leaves plenty of hope that Morocco will be in expack 3.

Or a Berber/Tuareg civ.

 

[ChocolateShake]

They'll certainly make the government plaza's loyalty bonus more appealing. I'm wondering which governor would be best for them early on, probably Magnus to get the settlers not costing pop bonus.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Er... the healing is enough for conquest. You're literally unstoppable. Norway still has to heal.

Well they do have to go back to your city first.

 

[Alexadamz]

Oh I'm 100% on board with this. If the yields stay on the original capital, then the purpose is pretty much trivialized. Moving capitals (and their yields) really captures the city state feel. That the concept of "original" capital exists for balance purposes for some cards and domination victory is a gameplay consequence I'm willing to live with.

I agree with the theme, it is accurate indeed.

If it worked with her card, then every city she founded on her first continent would have 25% gold, 15% growth and 10% production. Which is EXTREMELY strong

Well, it is mainly map dependant, and they are changing the continent generation codes, so we can get harder situations like that on most maps. I don't think it would be extremely strong.

 

[Disgustipated]

I'm hoping Firaxis has beefed up the AI's handling of navies, it certainly doesn't look like much is needed to get them to use them properly. In fact naval combat should be easier to code than land combat, here's hoping we see a good improvement in GS on that front.

Seems like the AI is better at naval combat than land combat. You can actually see this in one of the gameplay videos a couple weeks ago. They seem to suffer less from movement restrictions and zone of control issues (while there is ZOC at sea, it's easy to go around).

And North Africa is typically a dead zone in TSL

I usually see Spain move there. Will be interesting to see Spain and Phoenicia come to blows. England sometimes moves there as well.

How expensive is it to move the cap

100 base cost, in the video I believe it was 170 production. I'm not exactly sure why it goes up. Projects don't normally increase in value like districts do they?

 

[IvoryPavane]

Well they do have to go back to your city first.

If they are on your continent, you could just plop a city next to them and have access to some quick healing.

She has a lot of interesting little interplay’s, but not one broad overarching theme beyond “SETTLE EVERYWHERE BEEEEEEES”, which is probably why there is a lot of differing opinions on how useful Phonecia is

 

[kryat]

This civ is going to be rich. VERY rich.

Cheap cities means more trade routes, since that’s a direct scaling. Cheap harbors means they will come faster and more often than CH in your standard civ.

The change in GS rules means all pure sea international trade routes will come with a 2X multiplier, and possibly alternate bonuses for internal routes (I’m not sure we know how internal routes are affected by the efficiency rules. If they do benefit; that’s a ton of food and production). Additionally, harbors, light houses, and docks get commercial envoy bonuses now.

Factor in a more flexible location for your Govt Plaza, Reyna, and faster district construction in your “Capitol”, trade route stacking, and you could easily make several wealthy cities, and one extremely wealthy city.

 

[PhilBowles]

Er... the healing is enough for conquest. You're literally unstoppable. Norway still has to heal.

Just rechecked the bonuses - this isn't actually correct. They fully heal only within the borders of a city with a Cothon, and this isn't a Bireme ability but a Cothon ability - they get extra speed, just like the Longship.

And by the time Cothons come along good luck taking out cities with Galleys.