[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[PhoenicianGold]

Or a Berber/Tuareg civ.

Potentially. Or the Maghreb. Or the Moors.

But I'm pretty sure it will just be called Morocco. Ottomans aside, the devs have mostly been tying civs to modern state names where they can. Modern relevancy is more marketable.

Side note: I know it's politically touchy, but for this reason I really want a mod renaming the Ottomans to the Turks haha. Or at least calling them the Osmans which is more accurate and would let me vicariously live out my Oman fantasy as well.

 

[Krajzen]

I am honestly disappointed and I think this will be one of the worst civs in game, every civ upon announcement is overhyped by people as a great one but there always has to be some ranking of power and I am pretty convinced Phoenicia will be at the bottom of it. Remember, everybody was excited for Georgia and Norway as well.

So, let's see.
1) Coastal cities founded by Phoenicia and located on the same continent as the Phoenician Capital are 100% Loyal.

Question, how many coastal cities on the same continent as your capital are you going to found, unless you play on TSL? Please note that it requires coastal cities which are economically inferior (bad water tiles) and this civ doesn't offer any bonus in this regard unlike Indonesia. Also, this ability is dependent on map random generation. And on top of that, the bonus itself is not even a developmental bonus of any kind per se, but a prevention of potential loyalty flip.
So, let's sum up, hoe many cities are you going to settle which are simultaneously
a) On a same continent
b) On a coast of the same continent
c) Endangered by loyalty pressure despite being inot alone but in a cluster, because you logically wanna migrate capital so you use this bonus on largest number of them?

This ability could have been good if it, for example guaranteed loyalty of all coastal cities in the world.

***Settlers gain +2 Movement and +2 sight range while embarked. Settlers ignore additional Movement costs from embarking and disembarking.

Minor utility. Firstly, it is situational and potentially useless depending on the map. Secondly, how much turns of city development is it gonna save? How often do you race to claim some extremely faraway city spot sinve R&F, especially as it will flip upon the faintest loyalty pressure (remember it doesnt get loyalty immunity on other continents)?

***Can move their capital to a city with a Cothon by completing a unique project in that city.

So, only to good production coastal (economically suboptimal) city with Cothon built, which greatly limits its use, especially in the main purpose it should be loyaly protection. You cannot quickly migrate capital to secure newly colonized areas, they first need to have good production output. And they all need to be coastal!

***+1 Trade Route capacity for each Government Plaza building and[sic] the Government Plaza district.

Nice, but Phoenicia really deserved some quality bonus to its trade...

***+50% Production toward districts in the city with the Government Plaza.

So only to one city, only to districts, and only after already building GP. Insignificant.

***"Bireme: Phoenician unique Ancient Era unit that replaces the Galley. Increased Combat Strength and Movement. Trader units are immune to being plundered if they are within 4 tiles of a Bireme and on a water tile."

Stronger trireme of Carthago in civ5 was garbage even in the game with much bigger importance of navy (due to the fact coastal cities were good, recommended, necessary and all could be captured) and it's gonna be not mich better here.

***Cothon - "Replaces the Harbor district and cheaper to build. +50% production towards naval units and Settlers in this city. All wounded naval units in this city's borders heal +100 HP each turn."

This one is actually good! On naval maps, otherwise it is by its nature useless.

So, let's sum up:
- On maps without significant role of navy and water, Phoenicia essentially gets +4 trade routes and that's it.
- On water maps it gets +4 trade routes, faster cheaper settlers, faster navy production in harbor, pointless unique unit and insanely situational loyalty defense.

No economic bonus besides more trade routes, no science or culture bonus, no Tyrian Purple, no land military bonus, no navy quality bonus, no conquest bonus, no administrative bonus, no water yields bonus, no pop growth bonus - for most part Phoenicia just builds more ships and can heal them faster.

Geez, Canada is my most disliked GS civ regarding flavour and Phoenicia regarding power. Fortunately we still get amazing designs of Mali, Inca, Maori, Sweden, Ottomans and (slightly less but still okay) Hungary.

 

[PhilBowles]

Just rechecked the bonuses - this isn't actually correct. They fully heal only within the borders of a city with a Cothon, and this isn't a Bireme ability but a Cothon ability - they get extra speed, just like the Longship.

And by the time Cothons come along good luck taking out cities with Galleys.

EDIT: Also, apparently the combat strength of the Bireme has been confirmed to be 30 - so this unit now seems exactly the same as the Longship except that it can't pillage but can protect trade routes. Both fairly underwhelming abilities on a mediocre UU.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Just rechecked the bonuses - this isn't actually correct. They fully heal only within the borders of a city with a Cothon, and this isn't a Bireme ability but a Cothon ability - they get extra speed, just like the Longship.

And by the time Cothons come along good luck taking out cities with Galleys.

But the Cothon itself gives 50% naval unit production so she likely won’t be relying on the Galley.

 

[pgm123]

So you always wanna protect your Levantine homeland. I suppose then IRL Phoenicia failed when Tyre fell. Someone should tell Carthage.

I think they were aware.

Or they could just start with a galley instead of/as well as a Warrior, in which case the game would recognise they have a ship on loadup and give the eureka right away (as it does for the Aztec Eagle Warrior).

Shipbuilding requires two galleys, though. I feel like this civ needs the ability to embark settlers quickly.

 

[Zaarin]

But I'm pretty sure it will just be called Morocco. Ottomans aside, the devs have mostly been tying civs to modern state names where they can. Modern relevancy is more marketable.

Well, on the one hand we have Indonesia rather than Majapahit, but on the other we have Khmer rather than Myanmar. I think it could go either way.

 

[thecrazyscot]

Let's talk early game and costs - I think this might be helpful in illustrating just how powerful just two of Phoenicia's bonuses are.

One of your first districts should be the Government Plaza, which costs 30p. Right off the bat, you get free trade route slot #1 AND a governor promotion, which could be given straight to Magnus to chop the Ancestral Hall.

Production cost so far = 30p
Trade routes so far = 2

Your next district should be the Cothon, which (since it's a UD) costs 27p. BUT WAIT! Your Government Plaza gives you 50% production towards districts, which translates to a real cost reduction of 33%, or an actual cost of 18p.

Production cost so far = 48p (this combined cost is less than a single standard district, I might add)

At this point you can go in several different directions:
Ancestral Hall (150p) -> extra trade route + its bonuses
Lighthouse (105p) -> extra trade route
Settler (80p, +30p per Settler)

It might be good to get that Settler out ASAP, OR you could chop the Ancestral Hall to get an extra 50% towards Settlers AND extra trade route slot #2. Either way, you'll soon have the Ancestral Hall up and running. Let's go with the Ancestral Hall, since it also gives us another lovely governor promotion for Magnus.

Production cost so far = 198p
Trade routes so far = 3

Most everyone else still only have 1 trade route slot.

Now you can go nuts for Settlers. You could slot the Colonization policy card for an extra +50% production, but you'll only start seeing the benefits from that at Settler #4 or 5. Instead, I'd use that slot for something else.

Here's a chart showing how many turns it will take to build a Settler assuming a production of 10. The effect gets more pronounced the higher your production.

Competing civilizations can compete pretty closely until you've gotten your 4th or 5th Settler, but at the opportunity cost of slotting Colonization AND they'll have 2 fewer trade slots in the Ancient Era. You could use your 3 (or 4, if you built the Lighthouse) trade routes to generate gold for you to buy units/buildings/etc while your capital just churns out Settlers, using Magnus to avoid losing population.

Each of those new cities will come with a Builder and will immediately build Cothons/Lighthouses, for additional trade routes.

By the end of the Ancient Era, it's not unreasonable to think you'll literally have 2x the cities and 3-4x the trade routes as your competitors.

Yes, you might have to research some techs that usually you would wait on, but isn't the whole point to tailor your playstyle to your civ's abilities? Besides, the extra science+culture from these cheap early cities means you'll be able to make up the difference later on anyways.

Add in to that the bonuses towards Naval units in conjunction with the Naval production cards, and the Cothon is one of the best, if not the best, UD in the game. Late game coastal cities with a low production of 35 can still churn out Battleships in 5 turns.

I haven't even talked about the other aspects of their design. But already, the Phoenicians are expansionist monsters.

 

[kryat]

I am honestly disappointed and I think this will be one of the worst civs in game, every civ upon announcement is overhyped by people as a great one but there always has to be some ranking of power and I am pretty convinced Phoenicia will be at the bottom of it. Remember, everybody was excited for Georgia and Norway as well.

So, let's see.
1) Coastal cities founded by Phoenicia and located on the same continent as the Phoenician Capital are 100% Loyal.

Question, how many coastal cities on the same continent as your capital are you going to found, unless you play on TSL? Please note that it requires coastal cities which are economically inferior (bad water tiles) and this civ doesn't offer any bonus in this regard unlike Indonesia. Also, this ability is dependent on map random generation. And on top of that, the bonus itself is not even a developmental bonus of any kind per se, but a prevention of potential loyalty flip.
So, let's sum up, hoe many cities are you going to settle which are simultaneously
a) On a same continent
b) On a coast of the same continent
c) Endangered by loyalty pressure despite being inot alone but in a cluster, because you logically wanna migrate capital so you use this bonus on largest number of them?

This ability could have been good if it, for example guaranteed loyalty of all coastal cities in the world.

***Settlers gain +2 Movement and +2 sight range while embarked. Settlers ignore additional Movement costs from embarking and disembarking.

Minor utility. Firstly, it is situational and potentially useless depending on the map. Secondly, how much turns of city development is it gonna save? How often do you race to claim some extremely faraway city spot sinve R&F, especially as it will flip upon the faintest loyalty pressure (remember it doesnt get loyalty immunity on other continents)?

***Can move their capital to a city with a Cothon by completing a unique project in that city.

So, only to good production coastal (economically suboptimal) city with Cothon built, which greatly limits its use, especially in the main purpose it should be loyaly protection. You cannot quickly migrate capital to secure newly colonized areas, they first need to have good production output. And they all need to be coastal!

***+1 Trade Route capacity for each Government Plaza building and[sic] the Government Plaza district.

Nice, but Phoenicia really deserved some quality bonus to its trade...

***+50% Production toward districts in the city with the Government Plaza.

So only to one city, only to districts, and only after already building GP. Insignificant.

***"Bireme: Phoenician unique Ancient Era unit that replaces the Galley. Increased Combat Strength and Movement. Trader units are immune to being plundered if they are within 4 tiles of a Bireme and on a water tile."

Stronger trireme of Carthago in civ5 was garbage even in the game with much bigger importance of navy (due to the fact coastal cities were good, recommended, necessary and all could be captured) and it's gonna be not mich better here.

***Cothon - "Replaces the Harbor district and cheaper to build. +50% production towards naval units and Settlers in this city. All wounded naval units in this city's borders heal +100 HP each turn."

This one is actually good! On naval maps, otherwise it is by its nature useless.

So, let's sum up:
- On maps without significant role of navy and water, Phoenicia essentially gets +4 trade routes and that's it.
- On water maps it gets +4 trade routes, faster cheaper settlers, faster navy production in harbor, pointless unique unit and insanely situational loyalty defense.

No economic bonus besides more trade routes, no science or culture bonus, no Tyrian Purple, no land military bonus, no navy quality bonus, no conquest bonus, no administrative bonus, no water yields bonus, no pop growth bonus - for most part Phoenicia just builds more ships and can heal them faster.

Geez, Canada is my most disliked GS civ regarding flavour and Phoenicia regarding power. Fortunately we still get amazing designs of Mali, Inca, Maori, Sweden, Ottomans and (slightly less but still okay) Hungary.

I am honestly disappointed and I think this will be one of the worst civs in game, every civ upon announcement is overhyped by people as a great one but there always has to be some ranking of power and I am pretty convinced Phoenicia will be at the bottom of it. Remember, everybody was excited for Georgia and Norway as well.

So, let's see.
1) Coastal cities founded by Phoenicia and located on the same continent as the Phoenician Capital are 100% Loyal.

Question, how many coastal cities on the same continent as your capital are you going to found, unless you play on TSL? Please note that it requires coastal cities which are economically inferior (bad water tiles) and this civ doesn't offer any bonus in this regard unlike Indonesia. Also, this ability is dependent on map random generation. And on top of that, the bonus itself is not even a developmental bonus of any kind per se, but a prevention of potential loyalty flip.
So, let's sum up, hoe many cities are you going to settle which are simultaneously
a) On a same continent
b) On a coast of the same continent
c) Endangered by loyalty pressure despite being inot alone but in a cluster, because you logically wanna migrate capital so you use this bonus on largest number of them?

This ability could have been good if it, for example guaranteed loyalty of all coastal cities in the world.

***Settlers gain +2 Movement and +2 sight range while embarked. Settlers ignore additional Movement costs from embarking and disembarking.

Minor utility. Firstly, it is situational and potentially useless depending on the map. Secondly, how much turns of city development is it gonna save? How often do you race to claim some extremely faraway city spot sinve R&F, especially as it will flip upon the faintest loyalty pressure (remember it doesnt get loyalty immunity on other continents)?

***Can move their capital to a city with a Cothon by completing a unique project in that city.

So, only to good production coastal (economically suboptimal) city with Cothon built, which greatly limits its use, especially in the main purpose it should be loyaly protection. You cannot quickly migrate capital to secure newly colonized areas, they first need to have good production output. And they all need to be coastal!

***+1 Trade Route capacity for each Government Plaza building and[sic] the Government Plaza district.

Nice, but Phoenicia really deserved some quality bonus to its trade...

***+50% Production toward districts in the city with the Government Plaza.

So only to one city, only to districts, and only after already building GP. Insignificant.

***"Bireme: Phoenician unique Ancient Era unit that replaces the Galley. Increased Combat Strength and Movement. Trader units are immune to being plundered if they are within 4 tiles of a Bireme and on a water tile."

Stronger trireme of Carthago in civ5 was garbage even in the game with much bigger importance of navy (due to the fact coastal cities were good, recommended, necessary and all could be captured) and it's gonna be not mich better here.

***Cothon - "Replaces the Harbor district and cheaper to build. +50% production towards naval units and Settlers in this city. All wounded naval units in this city's borders heal +100 HP each turn."

This one is actually good! On naval maps, otherwise it is by its nature useless.

So, let's sum up:
- On maps without significant role of navy and water, Phoenicia essentially gets +4 trade routes and that's it.
- On water maps it gets +4 trade routes, faster cheaper settlers, faster navy production in harbor, pointless unique unit and insanely situational loyalty defense.

No economic bonus besides more trade routes, no science or culture bonus, no Tyrian Purple, no land military bonus, no navy quality bonus, no conquest bonus, no administrative bonus, no water yields bonus, no pop growth bonus - for most part Phoenicia just builds more ships and can heal them faster.

Geez, Canada is my most disliked GS civ regarding flavour and Phoenicia regarding power. Fortunately we still get amazing designs of Mali, Inca, Maori, Sweden, Ottomans and (slightly less but still okay) Hungary.

This is all maybe true pre GS rule changes. Several concerns you have stated are invalidated by the new rules (primarily, but not exclusively, that coastal cities are economically inferior to inland cities). We’ll have to wait and see how it plays in practice.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I am honestly disappointed and I think this will be one of the worst civs in game, every civ upon announcement is overhyped by people as a great one but there always has to be some ranking of power and I am pretty convinced Phoenicia will be at the bottom of it. Remember, everybody was excited for Georgia and Norway as well.

So, let's see.
1) Coastal cities founded by Phoenicia and located on the same continent as the Phoenician Capital are 100% Loyal.

Question, how many coastal cities on the same continent as your capital are you going to found, unless you play on TSL? Please note that it requires coastal cities which are economically inferior (bad water tiles) and this civ doesn't offer any bonus in this regard unlike Indonesia. Also, this ability is dependent on map random generation. And on top of that, the bonus itself is not even a developmental bonus of any kind per se, but a prevention of potential loyalty flip.
So, let's sum up, hoe many cities are you going to settle which are simultaneously
a) On a same continent
b) On a coast of the same continent
c) Endangered by loyalty pressure despite being inot alone but in a cluster, because you logically wanna migrate capital so you use this bonus on largest number of them?

This ability could have been good if it, for example guaranteed loyalty of all coastal cities in the world.

***Settlers gain +2 Movement and +2 sight range while embarked. Settlers ignore additional Movement costs from embarking and disembarking.

Minor utility. Firstly, it is situational and potentially useless depending on the map. Secondly, how much turns of city development is it gonna save? How often do you race to claim some extremely faraway city spot sinve R&F, especially as it will flip upon the faintest loyalty pressure (remember it doesnt get loyalty immunity on other continents)?

***Can move their capital to a city with a Cothon by completing a unique project in that city.

So, only to good production coastal (economically suboptimal) city with Cothon built, which greatly limits its use, especially in the main purpose it should be loyaly protection. You cannot quickly migrate capital to secure newly colonized areas, they first need to have good production output. And they all need to be coastal!

***+1 Trade Route capacity for each Government Plaza building and[sic] the Government Plaza district.

Nice, but Phoenicia really deserved some quality bonus to its trade...

***+50% Production toward districts in the city with the Government Plaza.

So only to one city, only to districts, and only after already building GP. Insignificant.

***"Bireme: Phoenician unique Ancient Era unit that replaces the Galley. Increased Combat Strength and Movement. Trader units are immune to being plundered if they are within 4 tiles of a Bireme and on a water tile."

Stronger trireme of Carthago in civ5 was garbage even in the game with much bigger importance of navy (due to the fact coastal cities were good, recommended, necessary and all could be captured) and it's gonna be not mich better here.

***Cothon - "Replaces the Harbor district and cheaper to build. +50% production towards naval units and Settlers in this city. All wounded naval units in this city's borders heal +100 HP each turn."

This one is actually good! On naval maps, otherwise it is by its nature useless.

So, let's sum up:
- On maps without significant role of navy and water, Phoenicia essentially gets +4 trade routes and that's it.
- On water maps it gets +4 trade routes, faster cheaper settlers, faster navy production in harbor, pointless unique unit and insanely situational loyalty defense.

No economic bonus besides more trade routes, no science or culture bonus, no land military bonus, no navy quality bonus, no conquest bonus, no administrative bonus, no water yields bonus, no pop growth bonus - for most part Phoenicia just builds more ships and can heal them faster.

I think your assessment of this Civ, based on its abilities in isolation, isn’t entirely inaccurate, however I think much (or all) of her power lies in her interactions with the other systems of the game.

Finding ways to use her bonuses to break and tweak with those systems are what I love doing in Civ! I find her quite mechanically similar to Poland in that she does ALOT of small things, but not obviously large bonuses.

But that’s the great thing about Civ, you have your Korea’s with obvious synergies and power (I don’t mean to pick on her so much but she illustrates my point really well), and then Civs that need a bit more intricitices to get online.

That being said, I hope coastal cities in general get a considerable buff considering how vulnerable they seem to the global warming mechanics.

 

[PhilBowles]

Well, on the one hand we have Indonesia rather than Majapahit, but on the other we have Khmer rather than Myanmar. I think it could go either way.

In fairness, an important reason to have Khmer rather than Myanmar is that the Khmer were based in Cambodia.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Let's talk early game and costs - I think this might be helpful in illustrating just how powerful just two of Phoenicia's bonuses are.

One of your first districts should be the Government Plaza, which costs 30p. Right off the bat, you get free trade route slot #1 AND a governor promotion, which could be given straight to Magnus to chop the Ancestral Hall.

Production cost so far = 30p
Trade routes so far = 2

Your next district should be the Cothon, which (since it's a UD) costs 27p. BUT WAIT! Your Government Plaza gives you 50% production towards districts, which translates to a real cost reduction of 33%, or an actual cost of 18p.

Production cost so far = 48p (this combined cost is less than a single standard district, I might add)

At this point you can go in several different directions:
Ancestral Hall (150p) -> extra trade route + its bonuses
Lighthouse (105p) -> extra trade route
Settler (80p, +30p per Settler)

It might be good to get that Settler out ASAP, OR you could chop the Ancestral Hall to get an extra 50% towards Settlers AND extra trade route slot #2. Either way, you'll soon have the Ancestral Hall up and running. Let's go with the Ancestral Hall, since it also gives us another lovely governor promotion for Magnus.

Production cost so far = 198p
Trade routes so far = 3

Most everyone else still only have 1 trade route slot.

Now you can go nuts for Settlers. You could slot the Colonization policy card for an extra +50% production, but you'll only start seeing the benefits from that at Settler #4 or 5. Instead, I'd use that slot for something else.

Here's a chart showing how many turns it will take to build a Settler assuming a production of 10. The effect gets more pronounced the higher your production.
View attachment 516177

Competing civilizations can compete pretty closely until you've gotten your 4th or 5th Settler, but at the opportunity cost of slotting Colonization AND they'll have 2 fewer trade slots in the Ancient Era. You could use your 3 (or 4, if you built the Lighthouse) trade routes to generate gold for you to buy units/buildings/etc while your capital just churns out Settlers, using Magnus to avoid losing population.

Each of those new cities will come with a Builder and will immediately build Cothons/Lighthouses, for additional trade routes.

By the end of the Ancient Era, it's not unreasonable to think you'll literally have 2x the cities and 3-4x the trade routes as your competitors.

Yes, you might have to research some techs that usually you would wait on, but isn't the whole point to tailor your playstyle to your civ's abilities? Besides, the extra science+culture from these cheap early cities means you'll be able to make up the difference later on anyways.

Add in to that the bonuses towards Naval units in conjunction with the Naval production cards, and the Cothon is one of the best, if not the best, UD in the game. Late game coastal cities with a low production of 35 can still churn out Battleships in 5 turns.
View attachment 516178

I haven't even talked about the other aspects of their design. But already, the Phoenicians are expansionist monsters.

This post is fascinating! It makes me feel simultaneously happy and dumb. Wish I were better at theorycrafting!

 

[pgm123]

Side note: I know it's politically touchy, but for this reason I really want a mod renaming the Ottomans to the Turks haha. Or at least calling them the Osmans which is more accurate and would let me vicariously live out my Oman fantasy as well.

I want a mod calling it as the Turkish Empire as well. It would make sense in the Historicity mod (with the option to turn it off for some people).

Well, on the one hand we have Indonesia rather than Majapahit, but on the other we have Khmer rather than Myanmar. I think it could go either way.

I think you mean Cambodia. That's where the Khmer live today.

 

[Ziad]

So, let's sum up:
- On maps without significant role of navy and water, Phoenicia essentially gets +4 trade routes and that's it.
- On water maps it gets +4 trade routes, faster cheaper settlers, faster navy production in harbor, pointless unique unit and insanely situational loyalty defense.
.

Well most of your analysis is flawed.

You'll be founding more coastal cities in GS by nature of their improved value. It is confirmed that sea trade routes gain bonuses if they are part naval, and Harbor districts now receive commercial city state bonuses.

So not only do you want to settle more cities on coast, other civilizations do as well.

Given that, naval power is more important than ever.

Furthermore, you don't need to found on coast. Any city on the same continent gets the loyalty bonus. This means that juicy inland settlement spots are still quite important. That they can't build Cothons is trivial as you don't need to use them as base of expansion. They're just there to fund the rest of your empire. You can still technically build a Cothon if there is at least one lake in the vicinity, and most often there are quite a few so just aim for those. The fact that Cothon doesn't provide tile yields essentially makes it powerful yet not overly important.

While most civilizations will go for a couple of settlers then have to heavily invest in settlers in order to expand later on as the cost of settler construction becomes too high. If they wish to expand efficiently, they have to either invest in more efficient settling (such as Monumentalism or Ancestry Hall) or go for some city conquest.

Phoenicia can either double down on those bonuses or just aim for other bonuses to make up for them. Their settler bonuses basically lets them both build them faster and move them faster while other civilizations are still struggling to build them or spending resources to speed them up. Their naval city bonuses enable city conquest as well to secure that empire. Loyalty bonuses make sure that a core set of founded cities can hold on to conquered (or razed) territory. Moved capitals (with some investment) allow them to rack up bonuses in a new capital city to strengthen your hold in new areas.

And they do ALL of this without necessarily needing to slot policy cards for them. People are fascinated with stacking bonuses but that's one-dimensional. Phoenicia doesn't need loyalty cards. Phoenicia doesn't need settler cards. Phoenicia doesn't need naval cards. It gets all of that for free. It can double down if it must, but it doesn't have to. Complementary gameplay makes them more well rounded

Their bonuses to trade routes are essentially achieved through a massive trade empire. They can go for any victory type because the only thing that matters in civilization is city count.... and they have all the tools to do it both peacefully (so no pissing off your neighbors) or through conquest if they must.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'd be cautious of anyone who tells you whether they'll be very bad OR very good, considering we don't even know all of the rules to the new game yet (let alone played with them).

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

You: "I noticed you've been encroaching on my territory. I would appreciate it if you didn't settle so close."

Dido: "No U"

 

[shaglio]

Just rechecked the bonuses - this isn't actually correct. They fully heal only within the borders of a city with a Cothon,

I can see myself getting annoyed by this often. I'll probably send the boat back to a tile that I think belongs to a city with a Cothon, only to discover that a neighboring city without a Cothon claimed the tile first.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I can see myself getting annoyed by this often. I'll probably send the boat back to a tile that I think belongs to a city with a Cothon, only to discover that a neighboring city without a Cothon claimed the tile first.

Cothons EVVUURRYYWHEERE

 

[Ziad]

Let's talk early game and costs - I think this might be helpful in illustrating just how powerful just two of Phoenicia's bonuses are.

One of your first districts should be the Government Plaza, which costs 30p. Right off the bat, you get free trade route slot #1 AND a governor promotion, which could be given straight to Magnus to chop the Ancestral Hall.

Production cost so far = 30p
Trade routes so far = 2

Your next district should be the Cothon, which (since it's a UD) costs 27p. BUT WAIT! Your Government Plaza gives you 50% production towards districts, which translates to a real cost reduction of 33%, or an actual cost of 18p.

Production cost so far = 48p (this combined cost is less than a single standard district, I might add)

At this point you can go in several different directions:
Ancestral Hall (150p) -> extra trade route + its bonuses
Lighthouse (105p) -> extra trade route
Settler (80p, +30p per Settler)

It might be good to get that Settler out ASAP, OR you could chop the Ancestral Hall to get an extra 50% towards Settlers AND extra trade route slot #2. Either way, you'll soon have the Ancestral Hall up and running. Let's go with the Ancestral Hall, since it also gives us another lovely governor promotion for Magnus.

Production cost so far = 198p
Trade routes so far = 3

Most everyone else still only have 1 trade route slot.

Now you can go nuts for Settlers. You could slot the Colonization policy card for an extra +50% production, but you'll only start seeing the benefits from that at Settler #4 or 5. Instead, I'd use that slot for something else.

Here's a chart showing how many turns it will take to build a Settler assuming a production of 10. The effect gets more pronounced the higher your production.
View attachment 516177

Competing civilizations can compete pretty closely until you've gotten your 4th or 5th Settler, but at the opportunity cost of slotting Colonization AND they'll have 2 fewer trade slots in the Ancient Era. You could use your 3 (or 4, if you built the Lighthouse) trade routes to generate gold for you to buy units/buildings/etc while your capital just churns out Settlers, using Magnus to avoid losing population.

Each of those new cities will come with a Builder and will immediately build Cothons/Lighthouses, for additional trade routes.

By the end of the Ancient Era, it's not unreasonable to think you'll literally have 2x the cities and 3-4x the trade routes as your competitors.

Yes, you might have to research some techs that usually you would wait on, but isn't the whole point to tailor your playstyle to your civ's abilities? Besides, the extra science+culture from these cheap early cities means you'll be able to make up the difference later on anyways.

Add in to that the bonuses towards Naval units in conjunction with the Naval production cards, and the Cothon is one of the best, if not the best, UD in the game. Late game coastal cities with a low production of 35 can still churn out Battleships in 5 turns.
View attachment 516178

I haven't even talked about the other aspects of their design. But already, the Phoenicians are expansionist monsters.

Thanks for the mathematical demonstration.

 

[Phoenix1595]

You: "I noticed you've been encroaching on my territory. I would appreciate it if you didn't settle so close."

Dido: "No U"

I was so getting use to Norway no longer forward settling my coasts because of loyalty and AI tweaks from R&F. It will be like vanilla all over again!

 

[PhilBowles]

Let's talk early game and costs - I think this might be helpful in illustrating just how powerful just two of Phoenicia's bonuses are.

One of your first districts should be the Government Plaza, which costs 30p. Right off the bat, you get free trade route slot #1 AND a governor promotion, which could be given straight to Magnus to chop the Ancestral Hall.

Production cost so far = 30p
Trade routes so far = 2

Your next district should be the Cothon, which (since it's a UD) costs 27p. BUT WAIT! Your Government Plaza gives you 50% production towards districts, which translates to a real cost reduction of 33%, or an actual cost of 18p.

Production cost so far = 48p (this combined cost is less than a single standard district, I might add)

At this point you can go in several different directions:
Ancestral Hall (150p) -> extra trade route + its bonuses
Lighthouse (105p) -> extra trade route
Settler (80p, +30p per Settler)

It might be good to get that Settler out ASAP, OR you could chop the Ancestral Hall to get an extra 50% towards Settlers AND extra trade route slot #2. Either way, you'll soon have the Ancestral Hall up and running. Let's go with the Ancestral Hall, since it also gives us another lovely governor promotion for Magnus.

Production cost so far = 198p
Trade routes so far = 3

Most everyone else still only have 1 trade route slot.

Now you can go nuts for Settlers. You could slot the Colonization policy card for an extra +50% production, but you'll only start seeing the benefits from that at Settler #4 or 5. Instead, I'd use that slot for something else.

Here's a chart showing how many turns it will take to build a Settler assuming a production of 10. The effect gets more pronounced the higher your production.
View attachment 516177

Competing civilizations can compete pretty closely until you've gotten your 4th or 5th Settler, but at the opportunity cost of slotting Colonization AND they'll have 2 fewer trade slots in the Ancient Era. You could use your 3 (or 4, if you built the Lighthouse) trade routes to generate gold for you to buy units/buildings/etc while your capital just churns out Settlers, using Magnus to avoid losing population.

Each of those new cities will come with a Builder and will immediately build Cothons/Lighthouses, for additional trade routes.

By the end of the Ancient Era, it's not unreasonable to think you'll literally have 2x the cities and 3-4x the trade routes as your competitors.

Yes, you might have to research some techs that usually you would wait on, but isn't the whole point to tailor your playstyle to your civ's abilities? Besides, the extra science+culture from these cheap early cities means you'll be able to make up the difference later on anyways.

Add in to that the bonuses towards Naval units in conjunction with the Naval production cards, and the Cothon is one of the best, if not the best, UD in the game. Late game coastal cities with a low production of 35 can still churn out Battleships in 5 turns.
View attachment 516178

I haven't even talked about the other aspects of their design. But already, the Phoenicians are expansionist monsters.

The analysis is fairly thorough but the conclusion flawed. In your hypothetical example your Cothon cuts the cost of the first settler by 2, or 20% of the total, compared with any other civ with an Ancestral Hall - and naturally you must by this point have a population of at least 4 in the city producing these districts and has had to take a very specific tech path (as well as deferred production on anything else). For this opportunity cost, this bonus is trivial.

You make a much better case for the importance of the extra early trade routes (though in the above assume you are not making trade units so get no use out of them) - the conclusion that follows from this is properly that the trade bonus is being underappreciated, but that far from being "expansionist monsters" the Phoenician settlement bonus is fairly trivial. You appear to assume that no one else can get Ancestral Halls or Early Empire.